Islam

[dolphinlove]

you know what, i thought i would remain below the radar for a while and see how these posts from planten pan out.
They are becoming more and more humorous every day.
You see planten, we point out the facts in your quran, then you reply with made up stories and rubbish.
I guess you are thinking you are gaining brownie points for this act? Believe me, your not.
Firstly, your blasphemous remarks against Jesus are beyond anything i can comprehend.
I know you dont understand who Jesus really is, and i feel sorry for you for that, but, when you do finally accept the truth, i hope you will go out and buy yourself some good rosary beads and start begging for forgiveness. Your lucky Jesus died for our sins. When you confess, you are forgiven. Does islam have this type of forgiveness? NO!
The Al’lah you have been taught to believe is not as loving and as kind as the REAL Christian God. He teaches us the truth, the way and the light. We are not allowed to lie, we are not allowed to kill… AT ALL!
A real God wouldnt want any of his children to commit any of these acts, yet your islamic god allows it.
I would start to question your scriptures and hadiths planten.
Because your soul is at fate.

 

[swariffin]

Then she was present very early morning near the tomb to anoint Jesus with perfumes, on Sunday morning. Why was she there if she was not related. Please R_Not explain these secret womanising missions of your Jesus.

And you call this womanising??? So, if a woman you help thanking you by visiting your grave (after you die), you call it womanising??? Next time a lady come into the same airplane you are riding, is called womanising. A lady visiting your home to see your wife, will be called womanising in your part. Come on, my friend, I know you are upset, but please don’t lose your logic.

 

[rikkk1958]

rikkk, I could not follow which way you are heading. You are with me or against me. I have clearly told the friends that there are two types of enemies of Islam or any religion. The internal enemies and the external enemies.

The internal enemies are called Munafiq (Hypocrites). They say they are Muslims.

The external enemies are called kafirs (The antagonistic hostile disbelievers). They do not say they are believers or Muslims. They wage all types of war against the religion.

If you check up properly then you will find that it is only such people who are to be killed during war. Any peaceful disbeliever is never to be harmed. Let him/her not believe in Muhammad. Let him be a disbeliever. No one is to harm any calm and peaceful person. Such are the innocent non-believers. They are not kafirs.

I hope you will consider the meanings now. If any one is to be fought or killed, he would be a Kafir. Not any innocent person.

004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

So far I have this to prove that Planten’s assertion of justifying killing only the “enemy” is just not enough. Here it is clear that muhammed believes only those who does not believe and it does not say the disbeliever is combatant. I am taking some tips from the post of r-not and I am not even halfway of her list.

 

[R_not]

rikkk, I could not follow which way you are heading. You are with me or against me. I have clearly told the friends that there are two types of enemies of Islam or any religion. The internal enemies and the external enemies.

The internal enemies are called Munafiq (Hypocrites). They say they are Muslims.

The external enemies are called kafirs (The antagonistic hostile disbelievers). They do not say they are believers or Muslims. They wage all types of war against the religion.

If you check up properly then you will find that it is only such people who are to be killed during war. Any peaceful disbeliever is never to be harmed. Let him/her not believe in Muhammad. Let him be a disbeliever. No one is to harm any calm and peaceful person. Such are the innocent non-believers. They are not kafirs.

I hope you will consider the meanings now. If any one is to be fought or killed, he would be a Kafir. Not any innocent person.

Can you tell me then why was an office building full of civilians attacked by muslims - twice (World Trade Center)? Or how about all the bombs that the Palestinians lob at school buildings where there are children? Or how about the beheading of a buddhist monk riding a bicycle, the school girls who are beheaded, or how about aiming for those who work in embassies? Now, those people are only doing a job! Or what about the bombs that go off in the Philippines in areas where there are tourists not even speaking, or even being aware, of muslims aiming to bomb (the violence against non-muslims in the Philippines is about 100,000 attacks against Philippino civilians in the past few years)

I would say that your assertion is just not true. Even when mohammed started his raids - he would just raid and kill to get booty and slaves. There were so many raids to count.

What about all the kidnappings of Hindu girls that are forced to convert and marry (basically slavery and rape)? Kidnappings go on in Europe, Africa, and elsewhere.

And since you have outright called me a kafir - I would say that you would find me in your category of those that it is ok to kill.

Here is your post that called me a kafir.

**R_Not, I tell you that you are a kafir. And your Jesus was the greatest cheater and liar. He tried to be the king of the Jews. But when he was caught, he changed his wordings and said that his kingdom was not of this world. See his cleverness?

I may have to discuss the doubtful (manner) birth of your Jesus again on this forum with more emphasis soon.
**

 

[R_not]

And you call this womanising??? So, if a woman you help thanking you by visiting your grave (after you die), you call it womanising??? Next time a lady come into the same airplane you are riding, is called womanising. A lady visiting your home to see your wife, will be called womanising in your part. Come on, my friend, I know you are upset, but please don’t lose your logic.

Yeah - sometimes one has to ignore him when he comes up with sort of stuff. There is something very wrong with the logic!

It shows that they get their ‘Bible stuff’ from their koran which isn’t even valid. He cannot even prove that the Bible was corrupted. Anyway, all Mary was doing was to finish the job of cleaning and anointing Jesus since he had to be buried so quickly before the Sabbath. In all reality, he should ask a Jew about the ceremony of how they prepare the bodies - I am not that versed in it.

So, mohammed takes a child as one of his wives, his stepson’s wife, and about ten others after he killed their husbands and then who knows how many slave women and children - and he is wondering about a woman going to clean Jesus’ dead body?! And then calls it womanizing? go figure:shrug:

 

[Allnamesused]

**You will not be saved with your present set of evil mind prejudiced against Muhamamd. Please note that Muhammad never told any one to kill the innocent unbelievers. If you have any verse of Quran then, I admit that there had been some loose transations in the past. They give such impression to you. But is not so. If you have any knowledge of Arabic or you have some Muslim nearby, then please check up the verse which is causing you the problem. Check up that it is not having any word “Kafir” in it.

Kafir is a fanatic, hostile disbeliever. He is not innocent person. He is an enemy. So the enemy can be killed. Yes, or NO?**

But what is it to be innocent according to Mohoammed? Basically you argue that anyone that Mohammed did kill was guilty by vitue of the fact that mohammed killed them; and thus mohammed could only kill guilty people. I like this method of defining guilt and innocence. I would say that the Crusaders killed no innocents because everyone they killed were guilty simply by virtue of the fact that the crusaders killed them. If it works for Mohammed then it works for crusaders. The crusaders only killed guilty people. How do we know that they were guilty? Well, if they weren’t the Crusaders would not have killed them. Pretty air tight.

Honestly Planten you can’t truely believe the stuff you write…you just can’t. Just say it…Mohammed was a murderous fiend and you don’t care. He slaughtered whomever he pleased, and that’s all right with you. You are doing more harm to your faith with your foolish answers. I never truely understood just how hollow and silly your faith actually was until I started reading your attempts to defend it. Truely after listening to your apologetics I’ve come to realize that violence and intimidation are in fact the only hope Islam has. Sadly, your brethern have plently of experience in that regard.

 

[Allnamesused]

Originally Posted by planten
R_Not, I tell you that you are a kafir. And your Jesus was the greatest cheater and liar. He tried to be the king of the Jews. But when he was caught, he changed his wordings and said that his kingdom was not of this world. See his cleverness?

I may have to discuss the doubtful (manner) birth of your Jesus again on this forum with more emphasis soon.

Wow Planten I’m impressed. Your willingness to prove Christianity wrong has even lead you to blaspheme one of your faiths greatest prophets. Kudos. Sure it means that you’ll face Allah’s wrath, but you sure showed that there is no length you won’t go to dismiss their faith.

 

[jen_fla]

jen fla, More from the bundle of your Hadith. I will not go against what Muhamamd taught. He lived a life in accordance with the Quranic teachings. He never did anything against the teachings of Quran.

You show me where there is any order in the Quran to kill any innocent non-believer. If there is none then leave these Hadith alone. I have no time to waste in such idle things. You please read you own book of Hadith (biography) that is your bible, written by men. You will find many problems there too.

not my hadith, planten, but islam’s hadith.

if you will not go against what mohammed taught then you agree with what he said, “no retaliation is payable for her blood.”

and look at your last sentence. by saying this you are admitting there are problems with your religion. that is progress. and no, so far every “problem” i thought i came across in the Bible has a very solid explanation.

 

[jen_fla]

rikkk, I could not follow which way you are heading. You are with me or against me. I have clearly told the friends that there are two types of enemies of Islam or any religion. The internal enemies and the external enemies.

The internal enemies are called Munafiq (Hypocrites). They say they are Muslims.

The external enemies are called kafirs (The antagonistic hostile disbelievers). They do not say they are believers or Muslims. They wage all types of war against the religion.

If you check up properly then you will find that it is only such people who are to be killed during war. Any peaceful disbeliever is never to be harmed. Let him/her not believe in Muhammad. Let him be a disbeliever. No one is to harm any calm and peaceful person. Such are the innocent non-believers. They are not kafirs.

I hope you will consider the meanings now. If any one is to be fought or killed, he would be a Kafir. Not any innocent person.

and you called r-not a karif! you know she has done nothing violent! all she has done is point out teachings from YOUR political ideology wrapped up in a false religion.

are you going to deny that now? i suspect in person you would but we have it in writing.

very tragic. i wanted to believe all your peace talk, but alas more balogna.

anyone with a brain that can read can clearly see where your beliefs lie.

i think ayaan hirsi ali is pretty accurate when she says there are 5 groups of muslims:

The first group includes those Muslims who leave the faith because they cannot reconcile it with their conscience or with modernity. This group is important for the evolution of the Islamic world because they ask the urgent and critical questions believers usually avoid. Ex-Muslims living in the west are just beginning to find their voice and to take advantage of the spiritual and social freedoms available to them.

The second group is comprised of genuine Muslim reformers, such as Irshad Manji, who acknowledge the theological out-datedness of the Koranic commands and the immorality of the prophet. They tend to emphasize the early chapters in the Koran urging goodness, generosity and spirituality. They argue that the latter chapters wherein Islam is politicized and the concepts of sharia, jihad and martyrdom are introduced should be read in the context in which they were written, some 1,400 years ago.

The third group is made up of those Muslims who support the gradual perpetuation and domination of Islam throughout the world. They use the freedoms offered in democracy to undermine social modernity and, though initially opposed to the use of violence, foresee that once the number of believers reaches a critical mass the last remnants of unbelievers may then be dealt with in violence, and sharia law may be universally implemented. Ayatollah Khomeini used this method successfully in Iran. Erdogan of Turkey is following in his footsteps. Tariq Ramadan, deeply rooted in his Muslim Brotherhood heritage, is devoted to such a program among European Muslims.

The fourth group is the most obvious and immediately threatening. In this group we find a growing number of hard-line Muslims who have defined martyrdom as their only goal. This is an army of young men whipped into a frenzy of suicidal violence by power hungry clergy. These clergy have public platforms and work with impunity from institutions untouched and often funded by national authorities.

The fifth group is largely ineffective and only threatening in their refusal to acknowledge the truth. Here we find the elite clergy who make a show of trying to reconcile Islam with modernity. They are motivated by self-preservation and have no interest in true reform. They take selective passages from the holy books to make a case for a peaceful Islam, ignoring the many passages inciting violence, such as those verses which command the death of apostates.

It is through the first two of these five groups that progress and reform will come. As for the rest, the western world would be wise to recognize the realities of Islam, a religion laid down in writing over a millennium ago with violence and oppression at its heart.

 

[planten]

…
…

And since you have outright called me a kafir - I would say that you would find me in your category of those that it is ok to kill.

Here is your post that called me a kafir.

R_Not, that was because I see you as an antagonist, hostile, abusive type of person about the Prophet and about islam.

I need not do anything about it. This is only a war of words I leave it to God to deal with you. .

 

[planten]

jen fla, i never passed anybad remark about R_Not and Jesus until R_Not started the abuse. I did the same. can you not see what is going on? Then you find me at fault. Is that your jugdment?

I intentionally used the word Kafir for R_Not because I found that its proper use may be understood. People had some doubts about the word Kafir. I had an example in R_Not so I designated the word to that person. I did not initiate any trouble. R_Not did it. So R_Not may have it.

 

[cathopologist]

The Cathopologist, I never said that the blasphemor should be killed. Kafir is an enemy working to harm the religion with his time and might and money. Do you think he is a mere blasphemor? You are far from truth. First try to understand the situation please. Then comment.

You have virtually called (almost) everyone on this forum who disagrees with you a ‘kafir’. Technically a kafir is anyone who opposes your religious beliefs, anyone who is accused of blaspheming your prophet and religion. It is not only limited to those who wish to do (physical) harm to Muslims.

 

[Catholic_JIMMY]

This has probably been mentioned already, but I am new here. I have heard that Mohammed’s teachings were based off certain Gnostic beliefs. I am not completely sure if this is true, or what Gnostic beliefs were incorporated into Islam. If anyone else knows about this subject please discuss it on this thread. I can not find a decent source and I refuse to use wikipedia.

Thank You Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ)

 

[planten]

You have virtually called (almost) everyone on this forum who disagrees with you a ‘kafir’. Technically a kafir is anyone who opposes your religious beliefs, anyone who is accused of blaspheming your prophet and religion. It is not only limited to those who wish to do (physical) harm to Muslims.

**Yes, it could be like that. Any one who is sitting here and trying to abuse the prophet due to ignorance or enmity is a kafir for two reasons:

1. he/she doe snot believe in Islam.
2. he/she is abusive and tries defame the religion for no important reason.

There is no need to kill any abusers. It is enough to abuse them in return. These kafirs are not killing any one so there is no need to kill any one of them. But they are not any innocent decent people. They are camouflaged pseodo christians abusing the others faiths in the name of Jesus. How clever !!
**.

 

[planten]

This has probably been mentioned already, but I am new here. I have heard that Mohammed’s teachings were based off certain Gnostic beliefs. I am not completely sure if this is true, or what Gnostic beliefs were incorporated into Islam. If anyone else knows about this subject please discuss it on this thread. I can not find a decent source and I refuse to use wikipedia.

Thank You Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ)

Just like all messengers of God received messages from God, i.e. Abraham and Moses and Jesus and many others, similarly Muhammad also received messages from God. There is no need to look into any other way. That would be illegal. There will be no end to the troubles in religion.

Already, because the christians deny that any angel came to Muhammad, I have also started denying the coming of the angel to Mary and Joseph the carpentar, father of Jesus, and Zakariya. I do not believe that there is any angel for the christians.

So what use is it to indulge in false things? Better drop it please.

 

[dolphinlove]

Just like all messengers of God received messages from God, i.e. Abraham and Moses and Jesus and many others, similarly Muhammad also received messages from God. There is no need to look into any other way. That would be illegal. There will be no end to the troubles in religion.

Already, because the christians deny that any angel came to Muhammad, I have also started denying the coming of the angel to Mary and Joseph the carpentar, father of Jesus, and Zakariya. I do not believe that there is any angel for the christians.

So what use is it to indulge in false things? Better drop it please.

2 Cor
13 These people are counterfeit apostles, dishonest workers disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 There is nothing astonishing in this; even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Now planten, this is the problem. The Angel Gabriel came to Mary and told her she is going to be the mother of our saviour.
Then, the supposed same angel, Gabriel, appeared to muhammad with a completely different story to what appears in the bible.
Now, the obvious problem is, the angel in the bible is not the same angel that appeared to muhammad. We can only believe one or the other. And there is no way im believing muhammad.
As you can see where i quoted in the bible, the devil is capable appearing as an angel of light. So what conclusion does that lead to?
Conclusion:
The REAL angel Gabriel appeared to Mary. The angel that appeared to muhammad was the devil in disguise.
There is nothing the devil would love more than the Son of Man being denied.
And in order to do this, what did the devil do, formed his own religion to ‘attempt’ to eradicate the church Jesus started.
Although the devil has managed to fool some of God’s sons and daughters, most have chosen to stay loyal to Jesus.
After all, he did say his church will never end.

 

[rikkk1958]

Just like all messengers of God received messages from God, i.e. Abraham and Moses and Jesus and many others, similarly Muhammad also received messages from God. There is no need to look into any other way. That would be illegal. There will be no end to the troubles in religion.

Already, because the christians deny that any angel came to Muhammad, I have also started denying the coming of the angel to Mary and Joseph the carpentar, father of Jesus, and Zakariya. I do not believe that there is any angel for the christians.

So what use is it to indulge in false things? Better drop it please.

Planten, before you explain something for Jimmy, you must justify your denial of the Holy Bible when the “Book” (Bible) is in your quran that muhammed clearly tells you must respect and source of guidance for truth. Dolphinlove has the right to contradict your assertion because the quran is not telling the truth.
Now, speaking of the devil, you have to understand how he works with you. He is a deceitful being actually a fallen angel but afraid of God because he knows God is above all creation. You will find in your quran contradicting too much on itself because he tells you the real God and the Book of God but at the same time he deceives you by teaching hate then respect, then killing, then worship of the only God. Can’t you see the motive there? There is no cohesive teaching that quides a reader consistently about what God is all about. The Holy Bible on the other hand explains with facts that consistently teaches God’s love to all of his creation by way of the chosen people and place then ultimately to all mankind. You should so the same thing muslim woman does by going to threads that questions about Christianity so you will understand fully what Christianity is all about instead of you defending a hopless case here.

 

[planten]

2 Cor
13 These people are counterfeit apostles, dishonest workers disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 There is nothing astonishing in this; even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Now planten, this is the problem. The Angel Gabriel came to Mary and told her she is going to be the mother of our saviour.
Then, the supposed same angel, Gabriel, appeared to muhammad with a completely different story to what appears in the bible.

You have misquoted. The same angel appeared to Muhamamd and told him about Mary to have an illustrous son who will be a messenger to the children of Israel…

Now, the obvious problem is, the angel in the bible is not the same angel that appeared to muhammad. We can only believe one or the other. And there is no way im believing muhammad.
As you can see where i quoted in the bible, the devil is capable appearing as an angel of light. So what conclusion does that lead to?

Angel is the same. The God who sent the angel is also the same. The message is the same, (Good news for Mary). You are trying to confuse the matter…

Conclusion:
The REAL angel Gabriel appeared to Mary. The angel that appeared to muhammad was the devil in disguise

.

Please do not use Quran. Where in the bible did angel appear to Mary? can you tell me. there is no where. Now only the appearance of angel to Joseph is left. I deny that. I say that was the devil who visited Joseph. What can you do?

There is nothing the devil would love more than the Son of Man being denied.
And in order to do this, what did the devil do, formed his own religion to ‘attempt’ to eradicate the church Jesus started.
Although the devil has managed to fool some of God’s sons and daughters, most have chosen to stay loyal to Jesus.

**It is a good sermon of your own wishes. It need not be true. **.

After all, he did say his church will never end.

I do not know about that. Sorry. And I do not have to believe all that you say.

 

[R_not]

R_Not, that was because I see you as an antagonist, hostile, abusive type of person about the Prophet and about islam.

I need not do anything about it. This is only a war of words I leave it to God to deal with you. .

How can I be abusive when I just show you your own hadiths and koran? All what is gotten about mohammed is from those texts.

I think that being a kafir ‘is a good thing’, as Martha Stewart says! Because if anyone could believe that mohammed and allah are something to follow if one knows the koran and hadiths - then I wonder about that person and pray that they will accept the grace of God.

I was very moved by this woman and her accepting Christ and it speaks volumes as to the differences between islam and Christianity. While a person in islam feels the necessity to take her children away, abuse her, and possibly do worse to her - Christians pray for her AND her husband.

Life TV

 

[cathopologist]

**Yes, it could be like that. Any one who is sitting here and trying to abuse the prophet due to ignorance or enmity is a kafir for two reasons:

1. he/she doe snot believe in Islam.
2. he/she is abusive and tries defame the religion for no important reason.

There is no need to kill any abusers. It is enough to abuse them in return. These kafirs are not killing any one so there is no need to kill any one of them. But they are not any innocent decent people. They are camouflaged pseodo christians abusing the others faiths in the name of Jesus. How clever !!
**.

A religion that grants its believers the right to condemn others but does not tolerate criticisms from those outside its sphere is honestly, for the lack of a better word, cowardly.

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached. God is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death.” - Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos.