C
cathopologist
Guest
I think this has been one of your better ‘catholic’ replies.
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R
R_not
Guest
I think you need to take care of yourself and worry about yourself. As for ‘others’ - I am on other threads and other websites, and muslims blog there as well. When you show them their ‘religion’ and it doesn’t fit into their da’wa (spreading islam to the uninformed) they will eventually start the name calling and victimhood stuff. Other Catholics have told me I have to accept allah - and I refuse to go against the 10 Commandments just to make them happy. And now you and your assertion that I should be judgemental.
I think we need to agree to disagree on this one. I will leave the judging to God… and you and those like you. So, go for it if it makes you feel happy.
C
cathopologist
Guest
Bravo R_not, for at least not trying to be judgmental towards others who have disagreed with you. But if you don’t mind me saying, it would be better if you toned yourself down abit brother. I am guilty of being angry at times also. Maybe we need each other and to help one another to become better and respectful members of the forum.
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R_not
Guest
Catholics used to believe that we were the only ones in heaven - I remember that teaching when I was a kid. Vatican II happened and we looked at all of this differently which makes much more sense.
I still do not look at islam the same though. mohammed is not a prophet as the other prophets of the Bible, nor is allah the God of Israel. The Bible is full of verses telling us to be warned of those coming to killing in the name of God after Jesus, and other warnings. BUT!! I do not condemn all muslims for being muslims. Many people are duped all the time. I feel sorry for them because I don’t know how they can justify all the violence and deception that islam is all about - but like I said, it isn’t for me to judge them.
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R_not
Guest
The problem, I think, is that I am not angry. I am blunt - very blunt - and in the ‘world of emails, blogs, etc’ it can come off as angry. Believe it or not - I am very seldom angry. Although other things such as disgust, exasperated, etc I am guilty of. the muslims have yet to answer to their accusations that the Bible is corrupted (I have so many requests for them to prove that WITHOUT using the koran and hadiths since those are not proof of anything except what mohammed and the early history of islam is all about) they don’t answer a lot of things and what they do instead is post surahs that were replaced. Pretending that islam is anything other than what its ‘killing fields’, enslavement, violence, intolerance, etc have left behind is foolish especially since it is still going on!
Anyway, I really do not know how to change my writing style.
The only ones that have been at the wrong end of my anger will tell you that it takes a lot to get me angry. I cannot remember a time when I didn’t give people several warnings to stop (whatever they are doing that is getting me angry) before I actually ‘pop’! To be quite truthful - it takes too much energy to get angry and it isn’t worth it.
One thing that I have found has really given me a lift since this is coming from the Vatican itself and that they are FINALLY finding their voices about islam and its violence against people and its lack of toleration towards others!
La Civilta Cattolica
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rikkk1958
Guest
Planten, I wish you could answer my questions in Post #247, but your post here makes me wonder if they contradict some of the surahs in your quran. I think you can not deny the writings that if muhammed wanted unbelievers killed, how can the dead man feel “fear” or have future. This is laughable. I think what you are implying is that God can saved the unbelievers if they are slaughtered. This I believe. But hypocracy and deceit is the name of muhammed’s game.
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planten
Guest
**You will not be saved with your present set of evil mind prejudiced against Muhamamd. Please note that Muhammad never told any one to kill the innocent unbelievers. If you have any verse of Quran then, I admit that there had been some loose transations in the past. They give such impression to you. But is not so. If you have any knowledge of Arabic or you have some Muslim nearby, then please check up the verse which is causing you the problem. Check up that it is not having any word “Kafir” in it.
Kafir is a fanatic, hostile disbeliever. He is not innocent person. He is an enemy. So the enemy can be killed. Yes, or NO?**
B
Booklover
Guest
Should an unbeliever be killed for making disparaging remarks about Muhammad? In other words, does an unbeliever become a kafir simply by making those remarks and therefore liable to be murdered?
Vickie
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planten
Guest
** BL, There are degrees of Kufr ( hostile type disbelief). If it is only verbal abuse it may be passed off as some silly remarks (Bakwaas, blasphemy). But the person will be counted amongst the enemies.
Of course S/he cannot be killed just for his/her foolish remarks untill there is some kind of battle. I feel that such a person will be countered by similar type of bad remarks about him or his superiors and he will not be killed.
But it is possible that he may be killed because some muslim countries have enacted laws to prevent such blasphemy. Similarly, in England there is a law to protect the honor of Jesus only. Nobody can abuse Jesus in England. Anybody can abuse the queen in Hide park Corner, London. **
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planten
Guest
BL, it took me some time to understand your question. Here is my final reply. That person cannot be killed. Should not be killed.
B
Booklover
Guest
TAKKIYA!
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planten
Guest
No Ta q i y a. That is the Islamic teaching. There is no punishment prescibed in the Quran for any blasphemor.
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rikkk1958
Guest
Does it support your claim that it meant “the enemy” only? Perhaps it is just your own desire to justify the words of muhammed. The best way you can only get out of this argument is to abrogate the quran again. In the court of law, if someone orders one to kill, he is guilty of not only being an accessory or accomplice but the murderer if the victim dies. Even though, a godly person will never resort to have someone killed just because he or she supports religion other than islam. No man can impose that kind of punishment and even God will never want anybody killed for that reason. Be sensible.
Christianity offers you life which you may never have felt before. Try to let the Word of Jesus touch your heart even just for a bit. Christianity have so much more to offer for you and the world. Imagine the concept of “Love” for one another. If you think peace and harmony should take over the world, then let God choose its course not “Jihad”. Killing and hating is evil.
C
cathopologist
Guest
Kia bakwaas bolte ho? If you can avoid bloodshed, why resort to killing a person who you think blasphemed your prophet? Didn’t Mohammad teach you anything?
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R_not
Guest
There are so many surahs and hadiths that contradict your assertions that I just can’t believe you think you can pass this off as the truth!
One of the first things that I have learned from muslims such as planten is that when you show them their own texts they will:
Accuse the person of lying and ignorance. Tell him/her to read “authentic” Muslim websites and texts. Say that critics of Islam are “so-called” experts. Say that once a person “learns” about the “real” Islam, he/she will understand how beautiful and peaceful it is.
Say that any verse from the Koran that portrays Islam negatively is “out of context”. Tell them it doesn’t really mean what it says. Also, insist that any tradition that says that Mohammad did very bad things is “weak” or forged, or that it has no isnad (chain of narration) even if it has a long isnad and Muslims constantly quote from this same source.
the list goes on but these are on the top of the list.
The Quran contains 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers, and kill the infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
mohammed’s first battles of his career of a murdering marauder he fought the Quraysh. In the end, the Quraysh were willing to submit so instead of mohammed taking them at their word and making some sort of a peace treaty with them, or establishing them as his subjects - he had all the men, and boys that ‘had hair’ (pubescent little boys), all beheaded. He took the rest and enslaved them and passed them around as booty.
Not too much to misunderstand about that!
some surahs that tell the followers to slay others:
Sura (2:191-193)
Sura (2:244)
Sura (2:216)
Sura (3:56)
Sura (3:151)
Sura (4:74)
Sura (4:76)
Sura (4:89)
Sura (4:95)
Sura (4:104)
Sura (5:33)
Sura (8:12)
Sura (8:15)
Sura (8:39)
Sura (8:57)
Sura (8:59-60)
Sura (9:50)
Sura (9:14)
Sura (9:20)
Sura (9:29)
Sura (9:30)
Sura (9:38-39)
Sura (9:41)
Sura (9:73)
Sura (9:88)
Sura (9:111)
Sura (9:123)
Sura (21:44)
Sura (25:52)
Sura (47:4)
Sura (47:35)
Sura (48:17)
Sura (48:29)
Sura (61:4)
Sura (61:10-12)
Sura (66:9)
And there are even more from the hadiths. I won’t list them all… too many.
J
jen_fla
Guest
give it up planten. you are in denial of your own religion or you know the truth, but don’t want us to know, or you are really a decent kind man that made a decision to throw away mohammed’s revolting teachings like these two:
yes fighting and making mischief can be done with words only and mohammed had no problem with killing those that did.
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
Book 38, Number 4349:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
**A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet **(peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
so deny mohammed’s clear teachings, planten. you make us all proud when you do!
HOWEVER, i am suspect of you because you did not correct another female muslim poster when she said:
"Those non Muslims who are not fighting against Muslims or not committing any blasphemy will also be safe .
Those who were guilty of commiting blasphemy like the poet Kaab who wrote nasty poems against God , God’s last Prophet & other innocent Muslim deserved death penatly."
planten, nor any other muslim on this site corrected her! i have brought this up several times and you evade the issue.
i am thinking about starting a whole new thread on this issue, because this disgusting teaching from a cruel man NEEDS to be exposed.
but we all know what planten will say… it’s not in the quran so forget about it. :hypno:
whatever, planten. that would be like me a Catholic telling someone they don’t need to go to mass and they can ignore all the sacraments.
… but hey a partial follower of islam is better than a complete follower of islam.
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planten
Guest
rikkk, I could not follow which way you are heading. You are with me or against me. I have clearly told the friends that there are two types of enemies of Islam or any religion. The internal enemies and the external enemies.
The internal enemies are called Munafiq (Hypocrites). They say they are Muslims.
The external enemies are called kafirs (The antagonistic hostile disbelievers). They do not say they are believers or Muslims. They wage all types of war against the religion.
If you check up properly then you will find that it is only such people who are to be killed during war. Any peaceful disbeliever is never to be harmed. Let him/her not believe in Muhammad. Let him be a disbeliever. No one is to harm any calm and peaceful person. Such are the innocent non-believers. They are not kafirs.
I hope you will consider the meanings now. If any one is to be fought or killed, he would be a Kafir. Not any innocent person.
P
planten
Guest
The Cathopologist, I never said that the blasphemor should be killed. Kafir is an enemy working to harm the religion with his time and might and money. Do you think he is a mere blasphemor? You are far from truth. First try to understand the situation please. Then comment.
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planten
Guest
jen fla, More from the bundle of your Hadith. I will not go against what Muhamamd taught. He lived a life in accordance with the Quranic teachings. He never did anything against the teachings of Quran.
You show me where there is any order in the Quran to kill any innocent non-believer. If there is none then leave these Hadith alone. I have no time to waste in such idle things. You please read you own book of Hadith (biography) that is your bible, written by men. You will find many problems there too.
A
Angelos
Guest
A man of denials and repeated silly arguments.
Answer my question please:
Is Salman Rushdie an innocent Kafir according to your Koran? Please state your reasons.
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