Islam

[rikkk1958]

I want to ask muslim woman or Planten the following quesitons.

1… Do you agree or disagree the OT and NT of the Holy Bible?
2. Is muhammed superior than Jesus? If so why?
3. Islam as it claims to mean “submission”, does it implies “full submission”? Can you clarify the meaning of submission.
4. Do you totally agree that the quran was not abrogated? or changed by anybody from the original text?
5. Is there any witness when muhammed saw angel gabriel?
6. How many wives muhammed has, and did he treat them with respect as human beings?
7. Which story is true about Mary, the Holy Bible or the quran? Which book tells the complete story?
8. Do you agree about the gift of “free will”? If so, can you clarify your position on “free will”.
9. Which do you think is righteous to God, the faith of Abraham or your obedience to islam?
10. Do you totally agree to all what is stated under the Sharia and Hadith? If your answer that they are man made, do you agree that muslims must modify or amend them?
11. Do you agree that some of the surahs are violent?
12. Do you believe in peace and harmony, that all people regardless of their religion can live together?
13. Do you agree that some of your fellow muslims interpret your quran literally and take actions that are against your own belief of islamic teachings? If so, what have you done to alleviate this problem?
14. What is your position regarding “grace” of God, in relation to righteousness and faith? Please do not quote from quran, explain your personal opinion.
15. Do you think muhammed believes in God’s commandment of “love your neighbor as yourself”? If so, does he not contradict the quran?
16. Do you believe that muslims with islam want to dominate the world?
17, How do you define faith?

 

[Psalter]

Actually, none of us can say who is going to hades and who is not. The muslims do that all the time - but they set themselves as judges, juries and executioners. They just follow what that guy, mohammed, did all the time. We are not and we are supposed to let God do the judging.

R_not, God HAS said who is going to heaven and who is not. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We cannot decide who will go to heaven and who will go to Hell, but we can say who is going to go there and who isn’t, based on God’s decision. I have no doubt that you would say a murderer or and adulterer or a thief is going to hell unless they repent of their sins; how is it any different telling a Muslim they are going to hell unless they repent of their sin of false religion and turn to Christ?

 

[R_not]

R_not, God HAS said who is going to heaven and who is not. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We cannot decide who will go to heaven and who will go to Hell, but we can say who is going to go there and who isn’t, based on God’s decision. I have no doubt that you would say a murderer or and adulterer or a thief is going to hell unless they repent of their sins; how is it any different telling a Muslim they are going to hell unless they repent of their sin of false religion and turn to Christ?

I believe there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church. I am not against those other denominations of Christianity or other religions. I do believe that the Vatican II changed this ‘either you are a Catholic or you are going to hades’ mentality. That is way too similar to the islamic thought process - without all the killing, enslaving, subjugating, etc. I am very much against islam but even then what we are finding - even here - is that the brainwashing is very complete! I have to hand it to people like Nonie Darwish, Walid Shoebat, Hirsi Ali, etc some notables that have left islam. These and all the others who are unknown are very, brave people since there is a death sentence on those who leave.

Anyway, I am not the authority on all of this and we are not God. So, I am going to still say that we need to leave the judging of who goes to hades and who doesn’t up to God. We are not qualified to make such decisions.

That doesn’t mean that sometimes we don’t wish for someone to go to hades due to their behavior on this earth - it still does not make us the final authority on who goes to hades and who does not. I was told by a nun (in the 1950s) that there is a lot we do not know and we do not know what is in the heart of another human being.

We are also finding out a lot more about brain disease whether it be by birth, genetics or disease. And they have found out a lot about such things as frontal lobe epilepsy and its effects on the brain and that many modern cult leaders had some of the signs of it - as do the hadiths indicate the mohammed also did. In fact, as a child mohammed was given back to his mother by his wet nurse because of what sounds like fits - he lathered at the mouth, fell down, etc. Along with that could also be some frontal lobe damage that puts the stop on a lot of bad sexual behavior. Along with the epilepsy and wars that mohammed carried out - it might be that he also got some damage to that area of his brain which explains his attitude towards women, heaven, et.

The hadiths are very revealing as to what was wrong with mohammed.

Anyway, I divert - I refuse to judge anyone - not even planten or muslim woman. I won’t even judge mohammed, Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc. who have caused the deaths and torture of countless millions. I just cannot - it is not within me. BUT!! I do recognize evil and that is why I have to make sure that people are aware of the surahs and hadiths that the muslims on these boards don’t seem to want to admit to being a part of islam.

 

[Psalter]

I believe there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Then you believe a heresy:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

“There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” (Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
*
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus *(Outside the Church is no salvation) is a dogma; it isn’t an opinion and denying it isn’t an option for Catholics.

Vatican II did not change Catholic dogma; Catholic dogma never changes. And you can say “Hell”, by the way…it’s not a bad word. Hades is actually a more generic term for the netherworld and doesn’t refer exclusively to Hell…whereas the Greek word gehenna is the equivalent of the English word hell…if you insist on speaking Greek and not English, please correct your terminology and say “gehenna” not “hades.”

 

[R_not]

Then you believe a heresy:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

“There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” (Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
*
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus *(Outside the Church is no salvation) is a dogma; it isn’t an opinion and denying it isn’t an option for Catholics.

Vatican II did not change Catholic dogma; Catholic dogma never changes. And you can say “Hell”, by the way…it’s not a bad word. Hades is actually a more generic term for the netherworld and doesn’t refer exclusively to Hell…whereas the Greek word gehenna is the equivalent of the English word hell…if you insist on speaking Greek and not English, please correct your terminology and say “gehenna” not “hades.”

I have been called worse by muslims, and other Catholics/Christians. I don’t use Hell because I have to curb my language on other sites and hades is an acceptable term to use everywhere.

Make sure that if you do get to heaven to take your blinders with you, or at least ear plugs, so that when anyone else enters heaven - they won’t bother you. I do believe there is a joke around about that. You know the one that goes something like this - when the Protestant enters heaven Old St. Peter tells him to tip toe by your door because you think you are the only one there…

 

[Psalter]

I have been called worse by muslims, and other Catholics/Christians. I don’t use Hell because I have to curb my language on other sites and hades is an acceptable term to use everywhere.

Make sure that if you do get to heaven to take your blinders with you, or at least ear plugs, so that when anyone else enters heaven - they won’t bother you. I do believe there is a joke around about that. You know the one that goes something like this - when the Protestant enters heaven Old St. Peter tells him to tip toe by your door because you think you are the only one there…

Have been called worse what by others? I didn’t call you any names…I merely pointed out that it is a heresy to deny any dogma of the Catholic faith–and apparently you deny the dogma of EENS. I don’t know why you keep comparing Catholics to Muslims (because all true Catholics accept all Catholic doctrine–including the one that says there is no salvation outside of the Church or apart from Jesus Christ). There is a huge difference between warning someone that they are in danger of hellfire–something Christ and His Apostles often did, whose example we should follow–and slaughtering people because their beliefs differ from yours. Do you not understand that?

As for the last paragraph, it looks to me like you responded to the infallible, ex cathedra statements of Popes with your own opinion and conjecture. Are you a cafeteria Catholic, R_Not?

 

[rad]

Have been called worse what by others? I didn’t call you any names…I merely pointed out that it is a heresy to deny any dogma of the Catholic faith–and apparently you deny the dogma of EENS. I don’t know why you keep comparing Catholics to Muslims (because all true Catholics accept all Catholic doctrine–including the one that says there is no salvation outside of the Church or apart from Jesus Christ). There is a huge difference between warning someone that they are in danger of hellfire–something Christ and His Apostles often did, whose example we should follow–and slaughtering people because their beliefs differ from yours. Do you not understand that?

As for the last paragraph, it looks to me like you responded to the infallible, ex cathedra statements of Popes with your own opinion and conjecture. Are you a cafeteria Catholic, R_Not?

A Question…who said if your not a catholic person or part of the catholic church your going to hell…were did you get that from…

 

[brownjt]

**TomaszA, Yes, it is correct. Islam does not admit any son for God. Any man as God. Any animal as worthy of worship. Only God is divine. Islam does not admit that Jesus had died on the cross. He only appeared as if dead.

There are no innovatives. Abraham was not a Jew or a christian. We have same faith as had Abraham and his children. This new systen of three in One creates complications. What are these three? Are they not gods? Yes, they are according to the christians. So even if they are then going back into the One God, what use it is? It proves that there are some gods beside the Big God.
This belief is alien to the belief of Abraham, Ishmael, Issac and Jacob. We do not fight the christians. They can continue on whatever they believe. But they should not expect that any Muslim or Jew will follow in their footsteps.

The advice in the last para shown in TomaszA post is good. We should look for the commanalities of the two great religions, christianity and Islam. But there are enemies sitting nearby. They do not allow any one to see anything good. They are active in dividing the two great religions further apart. Who could be these enemies? I would not name them.**

You cannot ignore the history of events in judaism and christianity. It was sequential and this is a fact. Without judaism and christianity the basis of your faith would not be here. Anyway, imagine yourself planten - you are body,soul, spirit, heart, brain etc - each of these have a different function but all work together. When we were born all were there at the same time. That is how I - without being churched in such - can come close to maybe describing what the trinity is - no prophet or church authority or saint has ever described it - it is a great mystery. God the father (a human term) inserted his divine will and nature into a human baby - he had a mission - he had both a human will and divine will - jesus was a human man given divine powers of healing and interpretation and insight into the human heart - he was the predicted messiah - when he left us he promised that the great comforter would come - you say that was muhammed we say it was holy spirit - the way in which God transmits his grace and knowledge - no more body of jesus - now a “channel” by which God and his angles,etc speak to us.

 

[brownjt]

There you go again …defining Christianity for us lowly Christians. Allow us to define our own religion…you have enough to do explaining yours…thanks.

I must agree - Jesus said that judge not lest ye be judged by my father - both sides have condemning language that is judgmental and hateful - satan somewhere sits in spirit on this blog and thinks if I can have them argue over doctrine and have them forget that it i SATAN who is truly evil…?

 

[brownjt]

R_not, God HAS said who is going to heaven and who is not. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We cannot decide who will go to heaven and who will go to Hell, but we can say who is going to go there and who isn’t, based on God’s decision. I have no doubt that you would say a murderer or and adulterer or a thief is going to hell unless they repent of their sins; how is it any different telling a Muslim they are going to hell unless they repent of their sin of false religion and turn to Christ?

What do you mean there is no salvation outside of the catholic church?? Which century of you from? Where is this true; from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or the Magesterium of the Church(Catechism, chapter, verse)

 

[brownjt]

I want to ask muslim woman or Planten the following quesitons.

1… Do you agree or disagree the OT and NT of the Holy Bible?

**and they may say - as well as some non-christians - which OT and which Holy Bible - the OT from palestine or the one from the now bagdad or the eqyptian version - the catholic or the protestant/king james version bible??
**

1. Is muhammed superior than Jesus? If so why?
2. Islam as it claims to mean “submission”, does it implies “full submission”? Can you clarify the meaning of submission.
3. Do you totally agree that the quran was not abrogated? or changed by anybody from the original text?
4. Is there any witness when muhammed saw angel gabriel?
5. How many wives muhammed has, and did he treat them with respect as human beings?
6. Which story is true about Mary, the Holy Bible or the quran? Which book tells the complete story?
7. Do you agree about the gift of “free will”? If so, can you clarify your position on “free will”.
8. Which do you think is righteous to God, the faith of Abraham or your obedience to islam?
9. Do you totally agree to all what is stated under the Sharia and Hadith? If your answer that they are man made, do you agree that muslims must modify or amend them?
10. Do you agree that some of the surahs are violent?
11. Do you believe in peace and harmony, that all people regardless of their religion can live together?
12. Do you agree that some of your fellow muslims interpret your quran literally and take actions that are against your own belief of islamic teachings? If so, what have you done to alleviate this problem?
13. What is your position regarding “grace” of God, in relation to righteousness and faith? Please do not quote from quran, explain your personal opinion.
14. Do you think muhammed believes in God’s commandment of “love your neighbor as yourself”? If so, does he not contradict the quran?
15. Do you believe that muslims with islam want to dominate the world?
    17, How do you define faith?

 

[coleraine]

Salaam/peace

what’s ur point ? Did not read the whole thread …can u tell me if she answered to this question : coleraine , we are waiting to know --so what did happen in the that 11-minute period between post # 4 and # 5?

you wanna know what happened? i realized that no matter how i acted, you would never answer my questions the right way. you are asked a question, and you wriggle out of it by giving a “well you guys arent so great either…” argument. which is messed up, because no matter what bad things are done, they are not condoned by the church. the true church. i lost all respect for you after you suggested that the american government was behind 9/11, btw.

 

[coleraine]

Have been called worse what by others? I didn’t call you any names…I merely pointed out that it is a heresy to deny any dogma of the Catholic faith–and apparently you deny the dogma of EENS. I don’t know why you keep comparing Catholics to Muslims (because all true Catholics accept all Catholic doctrine–including the one that says there is no salvation outside of the Church or apart from Jesus Christ). There is a huge difference between warning someone that they are in danger of hellfire–something Christ and His Apostles often did, whose example we should follow–and slaughtering people because their beliefs differ from yours. Do you not understand that?

As for the last paragraph, it looks to me like you responded to the infallible, ex cathedra statements of Popes with your own opinion and conjecture. Are you a cafeteria Catholic, R_Not?

the church does not claim to know about who is in hell or heaven. i suggest you read up on cannon 1260. or perhaps look in my magesterium approved religous school book which states that anyone with love in their heart has a chance at being saved. but in the end, we really dont know. we live the way christ tells him, and trust in his divine mercy and judgement.

 

[brownjt]

Then you believe a heresy:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

“There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.” (Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
*
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus *(Outside the Church is no salvation) is a dogma; it isn’t an opinion and denying it isn’t an option for Catholics.

Vatican II did not change Catholic dogma; Catholic dogma never changes. And you can say “Hell”, by the way…it’s not a bad word. Hades is actually a more generic term for the netherworld and doesn’t refer exclusively to Hell…whereas the Greek word gehenna is the equivalent of the English word hell…if you insist on speaking Greek and not English, please correct your terminology and say “gehenna” not “hades.”

What does the catechism say about the muslim religion…? chapter and verse please…

It also says that the protestant church are heretics as well…i am a possible convert to catholisim - i am not a catechumen - i have been baptised twice - once as espiscoplain and once as baptist - i just cannot believe that after 52 years on earth - i am beginning to think some catholics believe that all christians are unsaved because of that verse in james regarding 'works" Read your bibles guys and it is clear that ALL have fallen short, even catholics who honor faithfully all seven sacrements every day - as i go through RCIA i believe that the most holy christians i have seen around are these faithful catholics doing all plus more that their faith requires BUT we all still fall short. It is by the grace of god we are forgiven and that is a gift we must ask for not work or earn.

 

[brownjt]

the church does not claim to know about who is in hell or heaven. i suggest you read up on cannon 1260. or perhaps look in my magesterium approved religous school book which states that anyone with love in their heart has a chance at being saved. but in the end, we really dont know. we live the way christ tells him, and trust in his divine mercy and judgement.

 

[Psalter]

A Question…who said if your not a catholic person or part of the catholic church your going to hell…were did you get that from…

The Church has always said there is no salvation outside of her. Did you even look at the two quotes I posted above, at all!?? Those are just a couple ex cathedra, infallible statements…I can provide many other quotes from saints, Church fathers, doctors, and popes teaching this.

 

[brownjt]

the church does not claim to know about who is in hell or heaven. i suggest you read up on cannon 1260. or perhaps look in my magesterium approved religous school book which states that anyone with love in their heart has a chance at being saved. but in the end, we really dont know. we live the way christ tells him, and trust in his divine mercy and judgement.

****psalter you like the ex cathedra this and ex-cathedra that, consult your magesterium, and what about waht pontiff #x said…You seem to be very PROUD of your catholic doctrinal knowledge - be humble, my christian brother and remember it is God who judges not anyone on this earth. We all maybe all surprised who we see inj heaven - if any of us gets there. Your commendable renditions of the traditions and interpretations will not though.

Let us remember #1 and #2 - love your god and love your neighbor - to get to the big dance the love comes from our hearts not from our works****

 

[jen_fla]

R_not, God HAS said who is going to heaven and who is not. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. We cannot decide who will go to heaven and who will go to Hell, but we can say who is going to go there and who isn’t, based on God’s decision. I have no doubt that you would say a murderer or and adulterer or a thief is going to hell unless they repent of their sins; how is it any different telling a Muslim they are going to hell unless they repent of their sin of false religion and turn to Christ?

that saying is a bit complicated. you might enjoy this:

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm

and no, we as humans can NOT say who is going to hell. we don’t know what changes of heart might take place at the final moment of death.

God wills that all men be saved.

 

[planten]

What does the catechism say about the muslim religion…? chapter and verse please…

It also says that the protestant church are heretics as well…i am a possible convert to catholisim - i am not a catechumen - i have been baptised twice - once as espiscoplain and once as baptist - i just cannot believe that after 52 years on earth - i am beginning to think some catholics believe that all christians are unsaved because of that verse in james regarding 'works" Read your bibles guys and it is clear that ALL have fallen short, even catholics who honor faithfully all seven sacrements every day - as i go through RCIA i believe that the most holy christians i have seen around are these faithful catholics doing all plus more that their faith requires BUT we all still fall short. It is by the grace of god we are forgiven and that is a gift we must ask for not work or earn.

**You had been right to some extent. But wrong in the end. We Muslims believe that we have to work for it. But we will not be saved by the works alone. We will be saved by the Grace of Allah.

But it does not mean that we do not have to work or earn the salvation. Final salvation will be by the Grace of Allah. It is necessary to pray to God and ask for His grace too.**

 

[planten]

The Church has always said there is no salvation outside of her. Did you even look at the two quotes I posted above, at all!?? Those are just a couple ex cathedra, infallible statements…I can provide many other quotes from saints, Church fathers, doctors, and popes teaching this.

** The Quran teaches that people of all faiths, if they do befitting good deeds, they have nothing to fear of the future and nothing to be sorry for anything of the past. ( Al Quran 2:62)

If any one does not believe in Muhammad, he is saved if he believes in God and does the examplary good deeds and harbors no hatred or fight against Isam. He / She is saved.

Moreover, the Quran says that God sent messengers to every nation, EVERY NATION OF THE WORLD. How good !!!
**