Islam

[Angelos]

Brother Angelos, you have what planten does not have. The love for Christ and His precious teachings. It is difficult to love an enemy, but please pray for planten. He may not appreciate it, but God will.

I always pray for all the members of this forum. Planten is not my enemy. He resorts to lying because of his desperation. May God forgive and guide him.

 

[planten]

but let me ask you this: terrorists use the Koran as an excuse. i dont want to get into interperatation, but it is true, that because of violent verses, they use it as an excuse. where in the NT is violence against anyone condoned? nowhere.

**You are right. But they (the terrorists) are wrong. So what can I do about it? People need some kind of excuse to do evil deeds.

If the muslims do evil (holy war) in the name of religion then they are doubly at fault. They do a bad deed and then they blame it on their religion.

**

 

[planten]

How many times shall I have to warn you not to slander me? Is it really so difficult for you to be honest?

I definitely refute the ISLAMIC notion of REVELATION. This is why I deny that Jesus was GIVEN a book named Gospel (Injeel) like the Koran. You Muslims do not believe that the NT is the same book as the book supposedly given to Jesus.

Planten, thanks for convincing me that dishonesty and lying are allowed and encouraged in Islam.

** O.K. Please tell me again why you said that Jesus was not given any book? If he was not given any book then what was he given. I hope nothing.

If Jesus did not give you anything then you are lost. i will not slander you but you said that Jesus did not have a book. He did not get a book. He did not give any book. That is all very bad for you. Do your other friends agree with you?

So please tell what he got? At least bible NT is out of way for you.**

 

[cathopologist]

** O.K. Please tell me again why you said that Jesus was not given any book? If he was not given any book then what was he given. I hope nothing.

If Jesus did not give you anything then you are lost. i will not slander you but you said that Jesus did not have a book. He did not get a book. He did not give any book. That is all very bad for you. Do your other friends agree with you?

So please tell what he got? At least bible NT is out of way for you.**

planten, before mankind discovered the wonderful papyrus, or even learned how to write, how did man know about the existence of God?

Let me ask you a hypothetical question: Forget Mohammad, forget holy books. Let’s just say until now, mankind has still not learned how to write. There are no writing tools, no scribes; not a single person on this earth knows anything about scribbling on cave walls, stones, leaves, paper, etc. Will a Muslim still be Muslim? How can a Muslim, still be a Muslim if Islam has not yet been revealed through the Qur’an?

(Please bear in mind that Islam relies heavily on the Qur’an and Hadiths.)

 

[Angelos]

** O.K. Please tell me again why you said that Jesus was not given any book? If he was not given any book then what was he given. I hope nothing.

If Jesus did not give you anything then you are lost. i will not slander you but you said that Jesus did not have a book. He did not get a book. He did not give any book. That is all very bad for you. Do your other friends agree with you?

So please tell what he got? At least bible NT is out of way for you.**

Jesus is the uncreated and eternal Logos (WORD) of God in human flesh. The word Gospel means “Good News” and refers to Jesus’ teachings, not to a Koran-like book supposedly revealed to Him. The NT was written by Jesus’ disciples, who wanted to give testimony to His teachings and actions. This is so simple.

 

[rikkk1958]

**angelos says that jesus was not given any book. But we Muslims believe that Jesus was taught the Torah (Bible OT) and the Injeel (Bible NT) by God. Jesus seemed to have received messages from God through Holy Spirit and he worked in the light of the guidance that was sent to him. That is all described in the bible NT and considered sacred by all people.

angelos has disconnected bible NT from Jesus. WE cannot understand what angelos means. He says that Jesus did not have any book. He did not give any book (book means bible NT) to any one. He only gave a church to the people.

The above means that bible has nothing to do with Jesus. It could only be a descriptive life story of Jesus written by men. i.e. nothing from God. Perhaps you can understand what angelos means… by disowning bible NT. **

I think I now understood why Planten kept on insisting that Jesus was not given any book, it is because he does not get what Angelos means. Too bad Planten, I think the reason why you are still arguing is because of your nature not to understanding things and that is why you kept insisting on arguments that was already explained to you but you do not understand. Do you know that you are a good example on what is said in the Bible? ‘They see and hear but never understand.’

 

[coleraine]

**You are right. But they (the terrorists) are wrong. So what can I do about it? People need some kind of excuse to do evil deeds.

If the muslims do evil (holy war) in the name of religion then they are doubly at fault. They do a bad deed and then they blame it on their religion.

**

there you go! thank you! (really) that is why we are not at fault for hitler. i never said that you were evil, or that you were a terrorist, what we are talking about is the growing shift towards radical islam. just because the Koran has violent verses doesnt mean you have to go nuts and kill people. I just think that Islam as a whole is growing more and more non-peacefull. arent their sects in islam? different groups? it seems to me that when you have disagreing groups like you guys do, which lack certain unity, radicalsim can run rampant. there are many many things we disagree about. and im sure we will be back at it very soon. but thank you for being sensible, unlike so many, and speaking out against radical islam. you should post it on youtube.

 

[swariffin]

**You are right. But they (the terrorists) are wrong. So what can I do about it? People need some kind of excuse to do evil deeds.

If the muslims do evil (holy war) in the name of religion then they are doubly at fault. They do a bad deed and then they blame it on their religion.

**

Dear Planten,

According to Imam Samudra and the gang (the Bali Bombers) you are wrong. They are waiting for death executions now, after sentenced to death for the crime. For them, any muslim disagreeing them is not a true muslim. Please don’t mistaken me. I trust you more than them although I have not even seen your face. I won’t bother translating an interiew with them, cause it is not worth my time and effort.

 

[shakira]

Islam is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion originating with the teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, a 7th century Arab religious and political figure. The word Islam means “submission”, or the total surrender of oneself to God (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh).[1] An adherent of Islam is known as a Muslim, meaning “one who submits [to God]”.[2][3] The word Muslim is the participle of the same verb of which Islām is the infinitive. There are between 1 billion and 1.8 billion Muslims, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world, after Christianity.​

Shakira Janet

Guaranteed ROI

 

[swariffin]

Islam is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion originating with the teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, a 7th century Arab religious and political figure. The word Islam means “submission”, or the total surrender of oneself to God (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh).[1] An adherent of Islam is known as a Muslim, meaning “one who submits [to God]”.[2][3] The word Muslim is the participle of the same verb of which Islām is the infinitive. There are between 1 billion and 1.8 billion Muslims, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world, after Christianity.​

Shakira Janet

Guaranteed ROI

Dear Shakira,

You are correct. If Islam means Submission to Allah/God/Yahweh than by definition, person like John Paul II or Mother Theresa are also Islam. Nobody but the atheists are the only one who are not. In a global and inclusive meaning, we are all Islam. I also agree with the first sentence of the Shahada (I witness that there is no god but God/Allah/Yahweh), but not the second. So, the difference between me and Planten (just for an example) lies just in one sentence only. We can have strong and lengthy arguments, but uncharity and/or personal insult should be avoided.

 

[R_not]

I always pray for all the members of this forum. Planten is not my enemy. He resorts to lying because of his desperation. May God forgive and guide him.

It is hard to not only deal with liars, but to trust them. We teach our children these things about lying!

I don’t think it is desperation, but it is sanction in the koran and is perfectly ok to lie. It is natural to them. This is one of the least of the ways muslims/mohammed break the 10 commandments and had to redefine sin. It isn’t a sin for them to lie. And that is why I don’t think they do it out of desperation.

 

[Angelos]

It is hard to not only deal with liars, but to trust them. We teach our children these things about lying!

I don’t think it is desperation, but it is sanction in the koran and is perfectly ok to lie. It is natural to them. This is one of the least of the ways muslims/mohammed break the 10 commandments and had to redefine sin. It isn’t a sin for them to lie. And that is why I don’t think they do it out of desperation.

However, I personally think that lying is sanctioned and encouraged in Islam because Mohammad was desperately unable to defend and promote his religion/ideology with the principle of honesty.

 

[R_not]

It seems that the www.faithfreedom.org is being attacked. we are not able to get into it.

this is a common thing for muslims to do to stop websites from telling the truth about islam.

I am sure it will be back in a few days. It is too bad islam is so afraid of discussing its doctrines (or lack thereof).

 

[R_not]

Islam is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion originating with the teachings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, a 7th century Arab religious and political figure. The word Islam means “submission”, or the total surrender of oneself to God (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh).[1] An adherent of Islam is known as a Muslim, meaning “one who submits [to God]”.[2][3] The word Muslim is the participle of the same verb of which Islām is the infinitive. There are between 1 billion and 1.8 billion Muslims, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world, after Christianity.​

Shakira Janet

Guaranteed ROI

Actually, this is not true. mohammed took verses from the Bible that he probably heard about - but mohammed was a pagan and allah was a moon god of his pagan religion. mohammed was also illiterate and that is the reason why his stories differ so much from the Bible. And because those stories differed he said that WE changed the Bible and corrupted it and therefore WE will be the ones going to hades.

Well, I have asked REPEATEDLY to prove this corruption NOT using the koran and hadiths since if there is proof of this corruption there would be a Bible that is unchanged. And the exact verses and chapters of the Bible that were corrupted should be able to show us.

We have just idly sat by and let muslims tell us that islam is Abrahamic. Well, #1. we don’t clump Judaism and Christianity into a definition of being ‘Abrahamic’. #2. none of the rites of islam are of the Bible - they are rites of mohammed’s pagan religion. The black rock, the kabaa, throwing stones/spitting/snorting/running around the kabaa to another rock/kissing the black rock/etc. are all that is unique to islam which was of mohammed’s pagan religion.

The reason why they use a picture of a crescent moon and star is allah was a moon god, basically a fertility religion - hence all the focus on sex - their heaven is about eternal sex/rape of virgins/little boys, sex in the sharia laws (also they are very concerned with potty behavior too - but that is another story! ), polygamy, women are nothing but what men own, etc. because their sole duty is to birth as many kids as they can.

In this website there is much about women in islam, the errors in the koran, mohammed was not a prophet, sex, etc.

misc info on islam

 

[planten]

Dear Shakira,

You are correct. If Islam means Submission to Allah/God/Yahweh than by definition, person like John Paul II or Mother Theresa are also Islam. Nobody but the atheists are the only one who are not. In a global and inclusive meaning, we are all Islam. I also agree with the first sentence of the Shahada (I witness that there is no god but God/Allah/Yahweh), but not the second. So, the difference between me and Planten (just for an example) lies just in one sentence only. We can have strong and lengthy arguments, but uncharity and/or personal insult should be avoided.

Swariffin, That is a good post. Islam means submission to the will of Allah. You believe in Allah/God then you are a believer (Momin). You believe in God via Jesus. And holy spirit. That is alright. But do not make Jesus or holy spirit as god or partner with God.

I believe that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger. The name of Muhamamd is a permanent part of my faith. It is permanently attached with the name of Allah. Nobody can separate it. But it does not mean that Muhammad is a god. In fact it means that Muhammad is a servant and messenger of Allah. That is our Kalimah.

Similarly, you should have the name of Jesus and even holy spirit with the name of God because they are the source of the light for you which leads you to God.

Only the Muslims have a Kalimah. The other religions do not have any Kalimah. But still they can use the name of their prophet. As long as they do not abuse any one and they are peaceful doing good deeds, they have nothing to fear (Verse 2:62 of Quran). More later, Wassalam.

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by Angelos
I always pray for all the members of this forum. Planten is not my enemy. **He resorts to lying **because of his desperation. May God forgive and guide him.

** angelos, you have been discussing wrong things with R_not You have accused me of telling lies. You have accused Islam of permitting lies. You are absolutely wrong. In fact in your desperation you have resorted to accusations.

Why should I tell any lie?. Can you give me any one example where I told any lie. Try and tell. It is necessary otherwise you will be a proven liar. Welcome.**

 

[cathopologist]

** angelos, you have been discussing wrong things with R_not You have accused me of telling lies. You have accused Islam of permitting lies. You are absolutely wrong. In fact in your desperation you have resorted to accusations.

Why should I tell any lie?. Can you give me any one example where I told any lie. Try and tell. It is necessary otherwise you will be a proven liar. Welcome.**

Instead of accusing Angelos and R_not of lying, why don’t you define what taqiyya and kitman means and how do Muslims apply it daily, or in your case, on internet forums?

 

[cathopologist]

Swariffin, That is a good post. Islam means submission to the will of Allah. You believe in Allah/God then you are a believer (Momin). You believe in God via Jesus. And holy spirit. That is alright. But do not make Jesus or holy spirit as god or partner with God.

Christians don’t associate partners with God. God=Holy Spirit=Jesus. This is what Christianity teaches. If you cannot understand that, then welcome to the club. Christians attempt to understand God as much as the human mind can comprehend. What we do not do is limit God’s mystery, power and His ability to perform miracles. Even if that includes God becoming Man.

I believe that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger. The name of Muhamamd is a permanent part of my faith. It is permanently attached with the name of Allah. Nobody can separate it. But it does not mean that Muhammad is a god. In fact it means that Muhammad is a servant and messenger of Allah. That is our Kalimah.

You’re still following a man-made religion. Your shahada has Mohammad’s name in it. Totally unnecessary if Allah is indeed without partners.

Similarly, you should have the name of Jesus and even holy spirit with the name of God because they are the source of the light for you which leads you to God.

Close enough but it begs the question why you are not a Christian.

Only the Muslims have a Kalimah. The other religions do not have any Kalimah. But still they can use the name of their prophet. As long as they do not abuse any one and they are peaceful doing good deeds, they have nothing to fear (Verse 2:62 of Quran). More later, Wassalam.

Christians have the ecumenical Christian statement of faith otherwise known as the Nicene Creed. In fact, we had it before Muslims had the Kalimah.

 

[brownjt]

This whole discussion is why Jesus came. I want to remind the Muslims that without Jesus there would not have been Mohammed.

But historically speaking, the Muslims are taught they are descendants from Abraham thought Isacc, I believe. Your catechism (should I quote it for you catholics) renders great affection and respect for the Islamic religion due to their love and devotion for the Virgin Mary, because they are a Abrahamic religion - a believer in the one God who is the same as as ours.

Do they worship him differently - yes - but their veneration and public and private devotion to their God is more that i have seen from christians at times, except maybe devout catholics - oopps did i say that?

Muslims do not believe in the Trinity - they are not taught that. But, heck, protestants do not adhere to the Mother of God theory either - there are alot of interpretations flying around in the christian faiths as well…uuuhh you catholics I hear u do not consider the protestant definition of salvations, correct?

Muslims do and should believe in the crucifixion of Christ. They say that he was man when he was crucified - probably because of the belief that the twelve legions of angels left him at this death - they say that God would never have done that…It is a miusunderstanding of our Faith…

They always (or should always say Peace be with him) before they use His name…Most DO NOT though… they should honor the devotion and faith to our God that he showed and his sacrifcuie and love for ALL. It is not blasphemy in your hearts, muslims, to study and have affection for the jesus, peace be with him and to help him inspire you as well. Look at the example of his life.

Muslims - our “prophet” that you give him the honorific of Jesus allowed the coming of Muhammed to witness to you the faith of the One God. Look in the Quran and tell me who will be the ultimate judge of mankind and kill the 'beast" (similar to our Anti-christ) - it is Jesus - not depicted as Son or Savior who will sit with God to save Mankind.

My secret - I am married to a devout and sprititual Muslim woman. No pork in my house and she fasts like a banshee during ramadan. When my son was born, she whispered quotations from Quran in his ear. I am going to have him baptised - just in case - I want him to know be blessed by both. When he is of age - he can pick and choose. Her mother prays to God until she sweats and fasts whenever she does…She was raised in the shadow of a catholic church in North Africa and was schooled by those nuns who taught her loving and respecting Jesus and Mary were compatible and complementary to their Islamic faith. She has a Virgin Mary on her dresser rom St. Patricks cathedral and my sister-in-law has screensaver on her phone. They have become closer to their/our God through honoring Jesus and Mary - real people who the real Quran honors.

Muslims: Do not underemphasize where the Lamb of God sits. Mary Mohammed and Jesus are interceeding for all us with God - be thankful for that. I tell my wife we are going up to the same hilltop - I am going my way and she is going hers - God, mohammed, Mary and Jesus will be there to greet all of us. Have faith in that - but never forget the role of Jesus - have his name of your lips. Peace be among you.

jeff

 

[R_not]

Instead of accusing Angelos and R_not of lying, why don’t you define what taqiyya and kitman means and how do Muslims apply it daily, or in your case, on internet forums?