Islam

[planten]

here is just one example of what is happening in iraq - forced conversions or death

It happens all over the muslim world.

the sword in islam

Another good article going into abrogation and it mentions the sword verse

Abrogation is a reoccurring topic whenever verses of the Koran are discussed. As a rule, later verses counseling Holy War, such the Sword Verse (K 009:005), abrogate earlier verses counseling tolerance and peace, such as K 002:256. The Sword Verse is just one of the 164 Jihad verses listed below. It follows that not many, if any, of the Holy War verses in this list are abrogated.

Basically, the word ‘sword’ is used because that was the main weapon used by muslims at the time of mohammed. muslims adopted other weapons. You could also refer to them as the jihad verses.

The twisting of facts by trying to make subjugation a part of christianity just doesn’t pan out - in fact it is a lame attempt at trying to deflect what islam is all about if one doesn’t convert where sharia law is the law of the land. Subjugation is indeed a part of islam, as is slavery. The two are indeed different, but muslims have no problem with kidnapping non-muslim children and forcing them to be either slaves or force them to convert and marry muslim males.

Forced conversions in Egypt

Forced conversions in Pakistan

Forced conversions in Africa (video)

Basically, the stories abound to prove that there are forced conversions going on. do the searches for yourself.

You are trying to drag things to politics. It is better that you present something good and essential from your man made book bible NT. Angelos and some others have admitted that Jesus did not have any book and did not give any book to any one. So there goes your bible…

 

[Angelos]

You are trying to drag things to politics. It is better that you present something good and essential from your man made book bible NT. Angelos and some others have admitted that Jesus did not have any book and did not give any book to any one. So there goes your bible…

Since we admit that Jesus was not given a book, we also admit that the Koran is a man-made book that tells lies about Jesus because it claims that Jesus was revealed a book like the Koran.

 

[R_not]

You are trying to drag things to politics. It is better that you present something good and essential from your man made book bible NT. Angelos and some others have admitted that Jesus did not have any book and did not give any book to any one. So there goes your bible…

How is forcing conversions onto people a political thing? Are you saying that the governments of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Africa (various muslim nations), are forcing these conversions?

And sharia law is VERY political while you also know it is based on the koran. You are the one bringing up conversions - while I am saying that there is INDEED FORCED CONVERSIONS IN ISLAM! You can’t have it both ways and not expect it to be refuted that FORCED CONVERSIONS GO ON ALL THE TIME IN ISLAM.

I know that it is hard to show something good in the koran and this thread is about islam. So, unless you have something else - when you bring up conversions - I will indeed refute your assertions that there are no forced ones.

You, or any muslim, have yet to prove that the Bible was rewritten!

I put this in the ‘ask about islam’, but maybe you should prove this here too.

**Question: how do muslims prove that the Bible was corrupted? Please show the proof of the corruption and the original Bible.

Please do NOT use the koran or hadiths to prove your point. There should be an original document, or text, that they draw this assertion on.

Make sure to include the following:
-Exactly what passages, or chapters, were corrupted.
-Who corrupted the Bible and please don’t use a sweeping statement such as, ‘Christians and Jews corrupted the Bible’.
-provide the proof other than the koran and hadiths because they only have mohammed saying they are corrupted without giving any proof. And don’t say that ‘allah said, or mohammed said that the Bible is corrupted’ because that is just stuff from the koran and mohammed was an illiterate pagan who was throwing out accusations against a literate people who believe that the Bible is the Word of God and had no reason to rewrite it.

So, please provide some proof.**__________________

 

[coleraine]

Since we admit that Jesus was not given a book, we also admit that the Koran is a man-made book that tells lies about Jesus because it claims that Jesus was revealed a book like the Koran.

Planten, Jesus is the son of he who liveth forever and ever. the beginning, and the end. Your arguments have proven futile, as have muslim womans. open up your heart and let Christ in…he is knocking at the door. i understand if you cant respond to this, what with sharia law. but please…open your eyes! god is love, he is pure love. is that message portrayed in the Koran? you must admit that there is hate towards non-muslims in the Koran. In the NT…Jesus is pure love, as was and is his and our father in heaven.

in Chirst-coleraine.

 

[planten]

well, this verse made it very clear to me :

قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ
​

al-Tawbah 9:29 :** Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.**

**The above is correct. Please remember that this verse was revealed when Makkah was liberated and cleaned from the pagans. They were given four months to live or leave the city. They had been persecuting the Muslims for 20 years mercilessly.

Some people of the book were in collusion with the pagans. Shame on them being the holders of sacred scripture and then siding with the pagans. They were Jews and the christians. They were the allies of the pagans. So they were given a charge sheet of their bad deeds, as follows:**

al-Tawbah 9:29 :** Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection**

1. Fight those who do not believe in Allah… That means the pagans or atheists. Allah is same as God. It does not include the people of the books.
2. They do not believe in the last day… They are also not real Jews or christians…
3. They do not prohibit what Allah (God) has prohibited… What do you say about such people??
4. They do not follow the religion of truth, out of what has been given them in their books… That also shows that they were Jews and christians only for the name sake. They were using the name of Jesus and Moses as a camouflage only… They were guilty of mischief. And siding with the pagans could never be allowed to any people of the book who believed in One God… Think over !!
5. Their activity had to be curtailed in some way and it was done in a very peaceful way. Otherwise they were guilty of misconduct of the high order and could have been killed for their bad deeds.

They were allowed to live under some guarantee of being peaceful and a tax was levied on them. I feel that was not any hardship at all. It was a very lenient attitude on the part of Muslims.

If they did not want to pay tax, they could leave the place and go to live amongst their own forces of evil in other countries.

 

[planten]

A simple question for you: What do the underlined words refer to in the verse below:

Surah 4:102
And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, **so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, **and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.

angelos, I asked you for the word sword which is used in the bible NT. You have not shown the word sword in the quran. Weapon could be a spear too or a rod. Also you ignored the part that I have made bold in red above. Please see that too.

 

[planten]

Since we admit that Jesus was not given a book, we also admit that the Koran is a man-made book that tells lies about Jesus because it claims that Jesus was revealed a book like the Koran.

** Thanks, angelos, good job, you have done away with the bible NT. Good riddence. Now you do not have to worry about answering any complications of the bible.**

 

[Frank_J]

atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/10/islamists-day-p.html
Islamists Day Parade Gets Ugly Sunday, October 12, 2008

 

[R_not]

** Thanks, angelos, good job, you have done away with the bible NT. Good riddence. Now you do not have to worry about answering any complications of the bible.**

When are you going to prove that that islam’s assertions that the bible was corrupted, or rewritten?

Your posts are illogical about the koran and **you already know by your own hadiths that it was mohammed that was the problem in Mecca - NOT the pagans nor the Christians or Jews.

You have been told this time and again FROM YOUR OWN TEXTS. **

This one has one that says that mohammed’s time in Mecca wasn’t so peaceful, in fact he was harassing and bothering people and his own uncle was disturbed by his poor behavior:

*Ishaq:119 “'Abu Tabib, your nephew Muhammad has cursed our gods [at this point he had cursed all of them, including Allah], insulted our religion [more correctly, insulted them by trying to steal their religion], mocked our way of life and accused our forefathers of error. Either you stop him or let us get to him. For you, like us, are in opposition to him. He gave them a conciliatory reply. They returned a second time and said, ‘We have asked you to put a stop to your nephew’s activities but you have not done so. By Allah, we cannot endure having our fathers reviled and our customs mocked.’ Muhammad thought that his uncle had the idea of abandoning and betraying him, and that he was going to lose his support. The Apostle broke into tears.”

Tabari VI:93 “The Quraysh went to Abu Talib and said, ‘Your nephew [Muhammad] has reviled our gods, denounced our religion, derided our traditional values, and told us that our forefathers were misguided [and burning in hell]. Either curb his attacks on us or give us a free hand to deal with him, for you are as opposed to him as we are.’ They said, ‘We asked you to forbid your nephew from attacking us, but you did nothing. By Allah, we can no longer endure this vilification of our forefathers, this derision of our traditional values, and this abuse of our gods.’ This breach and enmity with his tribe weighed heavily on Talib. ‘Abu Talib, you are our elder and our chief, so give us justice against your nephew and order him to desist from reviling our gods, and we will leave him to his god.’”

Tabari VI:95 “Abu Talib sent for Muhammad. ‘Nephew, here are the shaykhs and nobles of your tribe. They have asked for justice against you. You should desist from reviling their gods and they will leave you to your god.’”

Tabari VI:96 “Abu Talib said to Muhammad, ‘Nephew, how is it that your tribe is complaining of you and claiming that you are reviling their gods and saying this, that, and the other?’ The Messenger said, 'I want them to utter one saying. If they say it, the Arabs will submit to them and the non-Arabs will pay the jizyah [submission tax] to them.”*

**Question: how do muslims prove that the Bible was corrupted? Please show the proof of the corruption and the original Bible.

Please do NOT use the koran or hadiths to prove your point. There should be an original document, or text, that they draw this assertion on. your silence, or ignoring this question, tells me more than you realize.

Make sure to include the following:
-Exactly what passages, or chapters, were corrupted.
-Who corrupted the Bible and please don’t use a sweeping statement such as, ‘Christians and Jews corrupted the Bible’.
-provide the proof other than the koran and hadiths because they only have mohammed saying they are corrupted without giving any proof. And don’t say that ‘allah said, or mohammed said that the Bible is corrupted’ because that is just stuff from the koran and mohammed was an illiterate pagan who was throwing out accusations against a literate people who believe that the Bible is the Word of God and had no reason to rewrite it.

So, please provide some proof.**

 

[swariffin]

Salaam/peace

thank you

.

Dr. Zakir is inviting people to the Truth – God is one without partner. He is trying hard to save people from eternal fire.

Great,

It is good to hear what Dr. Zakir has said inviting people to the Truth. Then, what Dr. Zakir has done beside saying? Things he did for the poor, perhaps. Orphans he supported, perhaps. You know, saying is always easy. But, doing is difficult. We do not need many speakers though, but we need many doers. People like mother Theresa, for example. What good that Dr. Zakir bringing people to Islam, if privately he does not do all good things taught in Islam. Well, God knows the truth anyway. I am not trying to judge anybody, anyway. That is why our pope does not have to remember all the verses in the bible and winning all arguments against other people. But, indeed, the pope must do all the things required for being a pope. John Paul II, is a good example.

 

[Angelos]

angelos, I asked you for the word sword which is used in the bible NT. You have not shown the word sword in the quran. Weapon could be a spear too or a rod. Also you ignored the part that I have made bold in red above. Please see that too.

Your reasoning is unreasonable and funny!

You first claim that the word “sword” is missing from the Koran in order to deny the truth that the Koran supports violence. When I show you the word “arms” in the Koran, you suddenly go off-topic! Dear planten, you really enjoy following assumptions. If you claim that a weapon could be a spear or a rod, I can claim that the arms in the verse could refer to swords. The primary weapon of those days was sword for sure! You must be confusing Mohammad’s army with that of primitive tribes living in Africa. Even the fourth Khaliph was known by his specific sword!

It is saddening to see that you are ashamed of your scripture and therefore resort to meaningless plays on words.

 

[Angelos]

** Thanks, angelos, good job, you have done away with the bible NT. Good riddence. Now you do not have to worry about answering any complications of the bible.**

I have done a good job because I have done away with the baseless and meaningless allegations of your Koran!

You are being dishonest again. You always consider the New Testament a man-made book, but now you are mysteriously and contradictorily admitting that the book supposedly revealed to Jesus by Mohammad’s god was the New Testament. Please be consistent.

 

[planten]

Your reasoning is unreasonable and funny!

You first claim that the word “sword” is missing from the Koran in order to deny the truth that the Koran supports violence. When I show you the word “arms” in the Koran, you suddenly go off-topic! Dear planten, you really enjoy following assumptions. If you claim that a weapon could be a spear or a rod, I can claim that the arms in the verse could refer to swords. The primary weapon of those days was sword for sure! You must be confusing Mohammad’s army with that of primitive tribes living in Africa. Even the fourth Khaliph was known by his specific sword!

It is saddening to see that you are ashamed of your scripture and therefore resort to meaningless plays on words.

** I am not at all ashamed, angelos. The problem was about the word “Sword”. That word is not found in the Quran. Do not run to weapons. Stay on the subject of sword which is a part and parcel of the bible. You failed to show the word sword in the Quran. I challenge you again. There is no sword in Quran**

 

[Angelos]

** I am not at all ashamed, angelos. The problem was about the word “Sword”. That word is not found in the Quran. Do not run to weapons. Stay on the subject of sword which is a part and parcel of the bible. You failed to show the word sword in the Quran. I challenge you again. There is no sword in Quran**

Why should I not talk of the weapons in the Koran? Swords are weapons too. What if the word SWORD is missing from the Islamic scripture? It is still implied in your scripture through the usage of the word “arms”. Islamic history testifies to the fact that the primary weapon of those days was the sword.

There are many words missing from the Koran. For instance, Jerusalem. Does this mean that the Koran denies the existence of that city? Likewise, no Eve in the Koran! No Hagar in the Koran! Your argument is very weak as usual.

 

[planten]

Why should I not talk of the weapons in the Koran? Swords are weapons too. What if the word SWORD is missing from the Islamic scripture? It is still implied in your scripture through the usage of the word “arms”. Islamic history testifies to the fact that the primary weapon of those days was the sword.

There are many words missing from the Koran. For instance, Jerusalem. Does this mean that the Koran denies the existence of that city? Likewise, no Eve in the Koran! No Hagar in the Koran! Your argument is very weak as usual.

Okay, talk about the weapons in Quran and not say anything about sword in the Quran. But when it comes to the bible then tell every one that Jesus had ordered his friends to buy swords even by selling their clothes. But he did not have the chance to use any sword. Sword was intended by Jesus. That is for sure in the bible.

 

[R_not]

** I am not at all ashamed, angelos. The problem was about the word “Sword”. That word is not found in the Quran. Do not run to weapons. Stay on the subject of sword which is a part and parcel of the bible. You failed to show the word sword in the Quran. I challenge you again. There is no sword in Quran**

There doesn’t have to be. It seems that way too many muslims in the past and present take up any weapon they can. In fact, they were the first to use napalm. They use(d) catapults, rifles, swords, and currently they have taken cell phones, vehicles, bombs, even babies and making bombs out of baby formulas.

The first reference to taking up the sword in the Koran is found in chapter 2:190-194: “And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).”

Mohammed said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people till they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Mohammed is the Messenger of Allah, and perform As-Salat and give Zakat, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives, and properties from me except for Islamic laws, and their reckoning (accounts) will be with (done by) Allah.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.1, Hadith No.24)

The chapter of the Koran which is entitled Mohammed or (The Fighting) affirms that Jihad is a perpetual commandment until all of Allah’s enemies (unbelievers) are subdued: “So when you meet (in fight–Jihad in Allah’s Cause) those who disbelieve, smite (their) necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam and are saved from the punishment in the Hellfire or at least come under your protection].” (Koran 47:4)

The Muslim is directed to be a brutal and ruthless fighter: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.” (Koran 5:33).

(my comment - and in the minds of muslims ‘waging war’ is as little as rejecting islam and rejecting subjugation. It can be also construed as fighting back after years/decades of muslim aggression/terror against a population.)

It is not expedient for Muslims to present Jihad as a pillar of Islam to Western nations, where they are a minority and lack political power; but Mohammed was quoted by the historian, Edward Gibbon, as declaring, “The sword is the key to Heaven and of Hell: a drop of blood shed in the cause of God, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting or prayer” (from Gibbon’s, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire).

No prominent religious leader in history has been more direct and aggressive in promoting his faith with the sword than Mohammed, who declared, “Different prophets have been sent by God to illustrate his different attributes: Moses his clemency and providence; Solomon his wisdom, majesty, and glory; Jesus Christ his righteousness, omniscience, and power - his righteousness by purity of conduct; his omniscience by the knowledge he displayed of the secrets of all hearts; his power by the miracles he wrought. None of these attributes, however, have been sufficient to enforce conviction, and even the miracles of Moses and Jesus have been treated with unbelief. I therefore, the last of the prophets, am sent with the sword! Let those who promulgate my faith enter into no argument nor discussion, but slay all who refuse obedience to the law. Whoever fights for the true faith, whether he fall or conquer, will assuredly receive a glorious reward.” (Washington Irving, Mahomet and His Successors).

The article goes on…

 

[R_not]

Here are a few of the similiarites between islam and Mein Kampf. It isn’t the Bible that we can compare islam to, it is the Mein Kampf. The muslims are so unwilling to prove that their assertions that the Bible was corrupted, but we know that people like Stalin said, ‘repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth’. So, it is a myth that the Bible was corrupted and especially when the assertion comes from a guy who was an illiterate pagan.

Now, we can compare the teachings of islam to Mein Kampf. You have to read both texts of islam, and also Mein Kampf and you will certainly see the similarities. Also, the history of both - granted the Nazis had a relatively short history, but islam does not and its history of bloodshed and terror is still going on to this day. We see in the UK yet another severe terror warning from the ‘religion of peace’.

UK

I.
Mein Kampf:676, “Spiritual terror…men must threaten and dominate men by compulsion. Compulsion is only broken by compulsion and terror by terror.”

Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”

II.
Mein Kampf:677 “Since our view of life will never share power with another, it cannot co-operate with the existing doctrines it condemns. It is obliged to fight by all available means until the entire world of hostile ideas collapses.”

Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone.”

III.
Mein Kampf:677 “This corrosive fight…for the new program and new view of life [religion] demands determined fighters…and a forceful fighting organization. The recipe for a favorable result requires the formulation of a declaration of war against all existing order [religions and doctrines], and against all existing conceptions of life in general.”

(Just like Islam, it was the Nazis against the world. The “House of Islam” forever battles the “House of War.” )

Tabari IX:69 “He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for those who disbelieve, we will fight them forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing them is a small matter to us.”

IV.
Mein Kampf:679 “The strength of a party lies in the disciplined obedience of the members to follow their leadership. The decisive factors are leadership and discipline. When troops battle one another, the victorious one will be that which is blindly obedient to the Superior Leader.”

Islam says: Ishaq:601 “The best men launch spears as if they were swords. They peer forward unweariedly. They devote their lives to their Prophet. In hand-to-hand fighting and cavalry attacks they purify themselves with the blood of the infidels. They consider that an act of piety.”

V.
Mein Kampf:680 “In order to lead a view of life to victory, we have to transform it into a fighting movement.”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have cut off every opponent’s nose and ears with our swords. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them for they must suffer disgrace.”

There are more, one only has to read.

 

[jen_fla]

** I am not at all ashamed, angelos. The problem was about the word “Sword”. That word is not found in the Quran. Do not run to weapons. Stay on the subject of sword which is a part and parcel of the bible. You failed to show the word sword in the Quran. I challenge you again. There is no sword in Quran**

oh? it is implied and stated.

038.033
YUSUFALI: “Bring them back to me.” then began he to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks.
PICKTHAL: (Then he said): Bring them back to me, and fell to slashing (with his sword their) legs and necks.
SHAKIR: Bring them back to me; so he began to slash (their) legs and necks.

054.029
YUSUFALI: But they called to their companion, and he took a sword in hand, and hamstrung (her).
PICKTHAL: But they call their comrade and he took and hamstrung (her).
SHAKIR: But they called their companion, so he took (the sword) and slew (her).

 

[cathopologist]

oh? it is implied and stated.

038.033
YUSUFALI: “Bring them back to me.” then began he to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks.
PICKTHAL: (Then he said): Bring them back to me, and fell to slashing (with his sword their) legs and necks.
SHAKIR: Bring them back to me; so he began to slash (their) legs and necks.

054.029
YUSUFALI: But they called to their companion, and he took a sword in hand, and hamstrung (her).
PICKTHAL: But they call their comrade and he took and hamstrung (her).
SHAKIR: But they called their companion, so he took (the sword) and slew (her).

“Sword” here means ‘tongue’, right planten?

 

[rikkk1958]

** Thanks, angelos, good job, you have done away with the bible NT. Good riddence. Now you do not have to worry about answering any complications of the bible.**

I want to know what Planten means of Jesus not given a book? I think there is some mis-understanding here. Does Planten was trying to tell us that Jesus was not given the Bible or the NT? I do not even understand the logic here. How can a builder have a house by not building the house. The NT is based on the life of Jesus, how can He have it while He is still on earth? However, Planten, if you have read the NT, you will understand who Jesus is, and to let you know that everything was created by Him.