Islam

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

…“Justice without love or mercy is oppression”.

Last Prophet (p) forgave the killers of his daughter , uncle . He had 10 thousands armed soldiers with him. If he wanted , those armed soldiers could kill each & every pagans of Macca.

Prophet Muhammed (p) forgave his enemies when he had power to take revenge . That’s call justice , mercy etc.

When you are helpless , u have no power then u say ok ,I wont take revenge --it’s meaningless.

if you had a son or daughter that had a weak moment and gave into peer pressure and stole a CD do you think taking their hand is just?

severe punishment is for professional thief & if s/he stole a big amount of money/ expensive things. CD in my country is very cheap . So , under the Islamic law , his/her hand won’t be cut off because of CD.

Once a judge gave order to cut off hand of a thief. when a woman teacher heard of it , he sent her student to the judge to correct him that as the thief stole less than the prescribed amount , hand must not be cut off .

There is other example where a boy stole food & Prophet did not punish him as he was hungry.

But Prophet ordered to cut off hand of a lady who stole a huge amount. When some people requested not to do that , Prophet said : “Do you intercede concerning one of the Hadd set by Allaah? Those who came before you were destroyed because if a rich man among them stole, they would let him off, but if a lowly person stole, they would carry out the punishment on him.

By Allaah, if Faatimah Bint (daughter of) Muhammad were to steal, I would cut off her hand.”
[Al-Bukhaari]

 

[swariffin]

**I do believe that Justice is well above love. Unbridled love could spoil all. In justice, love will naturally be there. One name of Allah is lover (Wadood). We all love him and He loves his creatures. Even birds and animals all sing in His praise.

Please be calm. I did not deny love. But you seem to ignore the Justice which is equally important. But as I see, in church system, there is no news about Justice. We have a Just God who will take account of the deeds of every one wih Justice. He will not spare any criminal without Jusice.

You seem to have some new formula of bypassing the affect of the bad deeds because you have some one who carries the burden of your sins. That is not any kind of love or Justice. It is against all norms.**

Dear Planten,

In your first paragraph you say Justice is WELL ABOVE love. Let’s call the sky and the ground. In the second sentence, you say Justice is EQUALLY important to love. You are inconsistent in presenting your idea.

But, I do not wish to challenge you on that, and forget it. I agree that Justice is equally important to love. Remember, Justice requires OBJECTIVITY, correct? There is no Justice with SUBJECTIVITY, correct? Now, perhaps you can tell us. How can you be OBJECTIVE?

LOVE will guarantee OBJECTIVITY. Off course, what I mean LOVE is the Greek world AGAPE. You must know, Planten, that EROS (in Greek, and can be translated as Lust) does not mean LOVE.

 

[rikkk1958]

Most of muslim’s claims about the quran are just mythical. Like Planten that will never waver in his belief that the quran is flawless. If you refute him he will deny by all means that the truth is not so without explaining why it is not so. He will just say because the quran does not say so. Anyhow, the quran had been flawed all along and the proofs are just too overwhelming. The problem is why bother arguing with Planten? He will never answer your question anyway because he is afraid that the truth will overwhelm his fanatical belief. Sometimes he will just ignore it just because he is afraid it may be right and he is wrong.

 

[planten]

Most of muslim’s claims about the quran are just mythical. Like Planten that will never waver in his belief that the quran is flawless. If you refute him he will deny by all means that the truth is not so without explaining why it is not so. He will just say because the quran does not say so. Anyhow, the quran had been flawed all along and the proofs are just too overwhelming. The problem is why bother arguing with Planten? He will never answer your question anyway because he is afraid that the truth will overwhelm his fanatical belief. Sometimes he will just ignore it just because he is afraid it may be right and he is wrong.

** The problem with church is that it did not have any law about stealing or killing or abusing or hygene or marriage / divorce. Torah had all the law. So did Quran. When church does not have any law then it should keep quiet about law matters.

jen fla:
in the quran it is stated to chop off the hands of those that steal. i have brought that up several times. you are mistaken to assume that when we do not agree with the punishment that condones the act. stealing is a sin and goes against God’s will, however, is there not a better way in dealing with a thief than to hack off their hands?

no muslim gave me a response to this question, so i shall ask again:**

The law is in the Quran about stealing. There is no need to ask anything from Muslims. But I would request jen fla to suggest some alternative practical good punishment for the thief please. Let us have some advice from the church now.

Stealing is not a minor offence. It develops into theft and robbery and telling lies etc. Religion should not tolerate it. I wonder what was the punishment in Torah for a thief. Could jen fla please tell us. Thanks.

 

[dolphinlove]

The problem with church is that it did not have any law about stealing or killing or abusing or hygene or marriage / divorce. Torah had all the law. So did Quran. When church does not have any law then it should keep quiet about law matters.

Have you noticed the OT and the NT are apart of the book called the BIBLE. Christians dont just have the OT on it for a pretty decoration, we have it as part of the bible so it is there to guide us. We have many rules for marriage in the bible. Read these passages for yourself:

Gen 2: 24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

This was the first institution of marriage. Right from the get go, God instructed us strictly that marriage is between one man and one woman. Not between 4 wives or 9 year olds, which is a man made rule to suit there own desires.

And this is what Jesus has got to say about the marriage and divorce.
Mat 19
3 Some Pharisees approached him, and to put him to the test they said, ‘Is it against the Law for a man to divorce his wife on any pretext whatever?’
4 He answered, ‘Have you not read that the Creator from the beginning made them male and female
5 and that he said: This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and the two become one flesh?
6 They are no longer two, therefore, but one flesh. So then, what God has united, human beings must not divide.’
7 They said to him, ‘Then why did Moses command that a writ of dismissal should be given in cases of divorce?’
8 He said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard-hearted, that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning.
9 Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife – I am not speaking of an illicit marriage – and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’
10 The disciples said to him, ‘If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.’
11 But he replied, ‘It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted.
12 There are eunuchs born so from their mother’s womb, there are eunuchs made so by human agency and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.’

and
Mark 10:1-12
and
Luke 16:18

And this one is for muslims
Mat 19:9

jen fla:
in the quran it is stated to chop off the hands of those that steal. i have brought that up several times. you are mistaken to assume that when we do not agree with the punishment that condones the act. stealing is a sin and goes against God’s will, however, is there not a better way in dealing with a thief than to hack off their hands?

what a sick and barbaric thought, chopping off hands for stealing. Thank goodness im a Catholic. All i have to do is repent and im forgiven. I dont have to get my hands cut off. Its obvious the Christian God is a loving and forgiving God, the god of your islam is not.
What the bible says about stealing:
Eph 4: 28
He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

Only a merciful and loving God will grant this, however, this is what the quran says about stealing:

the thief male, and female: cut off the hand of both, as a recompense of what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God

Yes planten, your god is truly merciful.
How can you even compare, everything the Christian God does, is done with love, not with malice and contempt.
Christians are given a chance to use our hands again, to create, to give and to repay if we are guilty of stealing. These chances you will never get in islam.

The law is in the Quran about stealing. There is no need to ask anything from Muslims. But I would request jen fla to suggest some alternative practical good punishment for the thief please. Let us have some advice from the church now.

I just gave you some advice with Eph 4: 28, what more could you ask for.
We are not punished if we truly repent, and mean it when we repent. The Christian God gives us forgiveness.

Stealing is not a minor offence. It develops into theft and robbery and telling lies etc. Religion should not tolerate it. I wonder what was the punishment in Torah for a thief. Could jen fla please tell us. Thanks.

So first you accuse us of this:
The **problem with church is that it did not have any law about stealing **or killing or abusing or hygene or marriage / divorce. Torah had all the law. So did Quran. When church does not have any law then it should keep quiet about law matters.

Then you want us to use the torah to provide an answer? So which is it planten, according to your ‘delusional’ beliefs, should we use the torah or not?

 

[jen_fla]

Salaam/peace

Last Prophet (p) forgave the killers of his daughter , uncle . He had 10 thousands armed soldiers with him. If he wanted , those armed soldiers could kill each & every pagans of Macca.

Prophet Muhammed (p) forgave his enemies when he had power to take revenge . That’s call justice , mercy etc.

When you are helpless , u have no power then u say ok ,I wont take revenge --it’s meaningless.

severe punishment is for professional thief & if s/he stole a big amount of money/ expensive things. CD in my country is very cheap . So , under the Islamic law , his/her hand won’t be cut off because of CD.

Once a judge gave order to cut off hand of a thief. when a woman teacher heard of it , he sent her student to the judge to correct him that as the thief stole less than the prescribed amount , hand must not be cut off .

There is other example where a boy stole food & Prophet did not punish him as he was hungry.

But Prophet ordered to cut off hand of a lady who stole a huge amount. When some people requested not to do that , Prophet said : “Do you intercede concerning one of the Hadd set by Allaah? Those who came before you were destroyed because if a rich man among them stole, they would let him off, but if a lowly person stole, they would carry out the punishment on him.

By Allaah, if Faatimah Bint (daughter of) Muhammad were to steal, I would cut off her hand.”
[Al-Bukhaari]

so there might be times when one can show mercy instead of hacking off hands. fine, but that does not change the fact the cutting off the hands of a man or women is the normal punishment.

show me a reference where if the amount is minor they are to go unpunished.

and remember if you show me a hadith, then planten will tell you to ignore it because it is contradicting the quran which says to cut off the hands.

however, regardless of what islam teaches, i am glad you agree it is wrong to cut off hands for at least stealing a cd. don’t faint, but we actually have something in common! http://www.pic4ever.com/images/bliss.gif

 

[jen_fla]

** The problem with church is that it did not have any law about stealing or killing or abusing or hygene or marriage / divorce. Torah had all the law. So did Quran. When church does not have any law then it should keep quiet about law matters.

jen fla:
in the quran it is stated to chop off the hands of those that steal. i have brought that up several times. you are mistaken to assume that when we do not agree with the punishment that condones the act. stealing is a sin and goes against God’s will, however, is there not a better way in dealing with a thief than to hack off their hands?

no muslim gave me a response to this question, so i shall ask again:**

The law is in the Quran about stealing. There is no need to ask anything from Muslims. But I would request jen fla to suggest some alternative practical good punishment for the thief please. Let us have some advice from the church now.

Stealing is not a minor offence. It develops into theft and robbery and telling lies etc. Religion should not tolerate it. I wonder what was the punishment in Torah for a thief. Could jen fla please tell us. Thanks.

well, for once instead of evading, you at least admitted you agree with the cruel practice.

dolphinlove showed you what we are called to do to the thief. we are to forgive and give them another chance. secular governments vary as to what the legal punishment should be.

 

[planten]

Have you noticed the OT and the NT are apart of the book called the BIBLE. Christians dont just have the OT on it for a pretty decoration, we have it as part of the bible so it is there to guide us. We have many rules for marriage in the bible. Read these passages for yourself:

I know you have the NT tied up with OT for some purpose even though you do not agree to the law in the Torah.

Gen 2: 24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

This was the first institution of marriage. Right from the get go, God instructed us strictly that marriage is between one man and one woman. Not between 4 wives or 9 year olds, which is a man made rule to suit there own desires.

That is from OT (not the offical book of cjristians), some doubtful just a few words in the whole book which you use to derive the required meanings. In these verses, there is no mention of not marrying more than one wife. The prophets of the israelis were proper persons. They did marry more than one wife. You cannot add your own meaning into things i.e. “so that they are one.” That is nothing against polygamy.

And this is what Jesus has got to say about the marriage and divorce.
Mat 19
3 Some Pharisees approached him, and to put him to the test they said, ‘Is it against the Law for a man to divorce his wife on any pretext whatever?’
4 He answered, ‘Have you not read that the Creator from the beginning made them male and female
5 and that he said: This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and the two become one flesh?
6 They are no longer two, therefore, but one flesh. So then, what God has united, human beings must not divide.’
7 They said to him, ‘Then why did Moses command that a writ of dismissal should be given in cases of divorce?’
8 He said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard-hearted, that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning.
9 Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife – I am not speaking of an illicit marriage – and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’
10 The disciples said to him, ‘If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.’
11 But he replied, ‘It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted.
12 There are eunuchs born so from their mother’s womb, there are eunuchs made so by human agency and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.’

They are the very wise words of Jesus. But just a few words telling every one that man should not try to divorce his wife. Our teachings are same. But to derive mor ethan that from these verses is surely your bad work. You are trying to over do something. Surely. There is nothing strictly against polygamy, not a word. But you are making up those things. God forbids such things.

and
Mark 10:1-12
and
Luke 16:18

And this one is for muslims
Mat 19:9

I cannot check those things. You may post or I will later open bible gateway and check them. I do not believe that you have anything in your NT against polygamy.

what a sick and barbaric thought, chopping off hands for stealing. Thank goodness im a Catholic. All i have to do is repent and im forgiven. I dont have to get my hands cut off. Its obvious the Christian God is a loving and forgiving God, the god of your islam is not.
What the bible says about stealing:
Eph 4: 28
He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

Only a merciful and loving God will grant this, however, this is what the quran says about stealing:

the thief male, and female: cut off the hand of both, as a recompense of what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God

Yes planten, your god is truly merciful.
How can you even compare, everything the Christian God does, is done with love, not with malice and contempt.
Christians are given a chance to use our hands again, to create, to give and to repay if we are guilty of stealing. These chances you will never get in islam.

I just gave you some advice with Eph 4: 28, what more could you ask for.
We are not punished if we truly repent, and mean it when we repent. The Christian God gives us forgiveness.

So first you accuse us of this:
The **problem with church is that it did not have any law about stealing **or killing or abusing or hygene or marriage / divorce. Torah had all the law. So did Quran. When church does not have any law then it should keep quiet about law matters.

Then you want us to use the torah to provide an answer? So which is it planten, according to your ‘delusional’ beliefs, should we use the torah or not?

 

[planten]

DiL: what a sick and barbaric thought, chopping off hands for stealing. Thank goodness im a Catholic. All i have to do is repent and im forgiven. I dont have to get my hands cut off. Its obvious the Christian God is a loving and forgiving God, the god of your islam is not.

You are designing your own religion as usual. Your book is quiet. Does not guide you about thieves.

What the bible says about stealing:
Eph 4: 28
He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

** I will have to check up this. What is Eph? Is it a part of OT or NT?
But it is useless order about dealing with the thieves. Don’t you agree. L:etting them off just by their appeal. How bad and impractical?**

Only a merciful and loving God will grant this, however, this is what the quran says about stealing

:

Your merciful god could do much more than that. Your god could be kind to the murderer and raper too. There is no limit to the mercy of your god.

the thief male, and female: cut off the hand of both, as a recompense of what they have earned, and a punishment exemplary from God

Yes that is good punishment to dter people from stealing. You may not agree. You may try to let off the thief or you may even give him/her some more money from yourself to help him/her on the way to progress…

Yes planten, your god is truly merciful.
How can you even compare, everything the Christian God does, is done with love, not with malice and contempt.
Christians are given a chance to use our hands again, to create, to give and to repay if we are guilty of stealing. These chances you will never get in islam.

** Yes your god is indeed merciful to the offenders. He allows the Offenders to beat you on the other cheek too. Who would believe that as a good thing !!**

I just gave you some advice with Eph 4: 28, what more could you ask for.
We are not punished if we truly repent, and mean it when we repent. The Christian God gives us forgiveness.

** I have to see the Eph 4:28, I am unaware of that. And if it is a part of Ot then I will not believe that it is for you. When you disregard the rest of the commands of the OT, surely you should be honest not to refer to the OT.
If it is in the NT even then it is in some obscure corner that it is not even found int he four prominent gospels. So what value that Eph 4:28 has for you??**

So first you accuse us of this:
The problem with church is that it did not have any law about stealing or killing or abusing or hygene or marriage / divorce. Torah had all the law. So did Quran. When church does not have any law then it should keep quiet about law matters

.

**Yes, I will keep on accusing the church for having no law. That is because I find in the NT that law was a curse and some one has redeemed you fromt he curse of that old law.

I also see no practical sign of that law in the life of th christians. So I am entitled to say that christians do not have any law.**

Then you want us to use the torah to provide an answer? So which is it planten, according to your ‘delusional’ beliefs, should we use the torah or not?

Yes, i would love to see some order from the Torah against polygamy. I would love to see any order from the OT to let go the theif scott free i.e. not to punish him/her. Please show from the Ot what are the orders there.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

You are designing your own religion as usual. Your book is quiet. Does not guide you about thieves.

I will have to check up this. What is Eph? Is it a part of OT or NT?
But it is useless order about dealing with the thieves. Don’t you agree. L:etting them off just by their appeal. How bad and impractical?

:

Your merciful god could do much more than that. Your god could be kind to the murderer and raper too. There is no limit to the mercy of your god.

Yes that is good punishment to dter people from stealing. You may not agree. You may try to let off the thief or you may even give him/her some more money from yourself to help him/her on the way to progress…

Yes your god is indeed merciful to the offenders. He allows the Offenders to beat you on the other cheek too. Who would believe that as a good thing !!

I have to see the Eph 4:28, I am unaware of that. And if it is a part of Ot then I will not believe that it is for you. When you disregard the rest of the commands of the OT, surely you should be honest not to refer to the OT.
If it is in the NT even then it is in some obscure corner that it is not even found int he four prominent gospels. So what value that Eph 4:28 has for you??

.

Yes, I will keep on accusing the church for having no law. That is because I find in the NT that law was a curse and some one has redeemed you fromt he curse of that old law.

I also see no practical sign of that law in the life of th christians. So I am entitled to say that christians do not have any law.

Yes, i would love to see some order from the Torah against polygamy. I would love to see any order from the OT to let go the theif scott free i.e. not to punish him/her. Please show from the Ot what are the orders there.

What you’re talking about here is justice and remedy and those things in the West are left to secular governments. Catholicism isn’t a theocracy and the bible isn’t a book of legislation.

Unlike Islam the job of Catholicism isn’t to govern so you can’t compare them that way. Catholicism has only one job; to offer the love of God to everyone and that’s it; that’s all it’s been commissioned to do.

Islam makes the claim: “Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate”, but in practice Allah sure likes to see the blood flow.

 

[Jguerra]

I found tucked away in my Bible a page I wrote down and meant to transcribe it to the computer. I heard this preacher on the radio on my way home and memorized his four principles of Islam. When I came across this thread, I thought I would jump in with my own two cents.

Four Principles of Islam
Remember: Christianity 33 A.D., Islam 600 A.D., Mormonism 1829 A.D.

ABSOLUTES NULLIFY PREVIOUS ABSOLUTES The revelation to Mohammed by Gabriel the Archangel declares all previous revelations to be false or corrupt and that this is the final and true revelation by God to the world. First there was A and only A; then comes B which is better than A. The fallacy is, there is nothing to prevent C from occurring. This happened with Joseph Smith receiving the golden plates from the angel Moroni. Charles Taze Russell repeated this error in 1879 when he founded the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, launching the Jehovah Witnesses sect.

EXCLUSIVE LANGUAGE REQUIRED The Qur’an is originally written in Arabic. Translations into non-Arabic languages are faulty and thus, Moslem scholars say the only true Qur’an is preserved in Arabic. This makes the scriptures of Islam inaccessible to the masses. To practice Islam and receive the promises of salvation requires the adoption of the Arabic language and its culture. While Mohammed is not known to have performed a miracle like Moses or Jesus Christ, Moslems say the Qur’an is the greatest miracle for all mankind. If it is truly a revelation from God, then why must Moslems learn Arabic to read the Qur’an?

AUTHENTIC STANDARD OR REFERENCE MISSING It is claimed that Jesus Christ did proclaim the Good News, the Gospel of salvation but the Bible in its present form is corrupt and unfortunately, the original Gospel is hopelessly lost. Christians today do not have an accurate translation of the Bible and never will. The fallacy here is if the original translation is indeed lost, you do not have a unit of measure, a solid reference by which you can compare current translations. Thus, Moslems who refer to a so-called Gospel of Barnabas are in the same predicament. It is surprising that Moslems have no problem trumping Christian scriptures as corrupt but yet use the Gospel of Barnabas to authenticate Islam.

EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS The biggest obstacle to free dialogue between Moslems and non-believers is this principle: Moslem scholars reserve the right to impugn, detract, nullify or otherwise negate other religions, their leaders and practices. The same right is not extended to opponents of Islam.

Dear reader: I heard these principles outlined by a preacher on the radio. I do not recall his name but he had a strong Indian accent and spoke the Queen’s English. I was on the way home listening and was so impressed that I pulled over off the highway and wrote down these four principles back in December, 2004.

Pray for the conversion of our Moslem brethren and when speaking with them, remember *“always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence. . .” *(1 Peter 3:15-16). Study up on your own faith. The best way to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ is by your example. “For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit…The virginity of Mary, her giving birth, and also the death of the Lord, were hidden from the prince of this world–three mysteries loudly proclaimed, but wrought in the silence of God.”(Ignatius of Antioch in his epistle to the Ephesians (vv. 18-19), which he wrote while under arrest and heading to Rome for his martyrdom, A.D. 110.)

See Call of the Minaret by Terry L Frazier at catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204fea1.asp

 

[planten]

well, for once instead of evading, you at least admitted you agree with the cruel practice.

dolphinlove showed you what we are called to do to the thief. we are to forgive and give them another chance. secular governments vary as to what the legal punishment should be.

** jen fla, I have replied to DiL. In fact nothing is told to me about the thieves in your system. Your book lacks in many things. There was a short sentence about stealing, not by Jesus but by the lectures of Paul. That is nothing to me. It is not a sacred word.

I wanted that you tell me the order about stealing from the OT. Is there any mention of some punishment for those who steal something, amongst the Jews? Please come with it.

Until then do not discuss the chopping of hands. Thanks**.

 

[planten]

What you’re talking about here is justice and remedy and those things in the West are left to secular governments. Catholicism isn’t a theocracy and the bible isn’t a book of legislation.

Unlike Islam the job of Catholicism isn’t to govern so you can’t compare them that way. Catholicism has only one job; to offer the love of God to everyone and that’s it; that’s all it’s been commissioned to do.

Islam makes the claim: “Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate”, but in practice Allah sure likes to see the blood flow.

**WW, Thanks. You have pointed out the utility of Catholicism to me. I also feel that is what your religion is. That is to leave the worldly matters to people to decide. If they pass a law in favor of abortion, the Catholics will not mind anything. If any law is passed permitting gay life Catholics will abide by it. Infact catholics have nothing to do with any orderly life.

The religion is to keep quiet and leave the law matters to the mankind and their desires.

What you have written appears to be correct and I see that is the Catholicism now. Youhave a relaxed way in the matters of religeon. You do not take any guidnace from any of yoru sacred books about the way of your life.

It is alright. happy go lucky.**

 

[cathopologist]

**WW, Thanks. You have pointed out the utility of Catholicism to me. I also feel that is what your religion is. That is to leave the worldly matters to people to decide. If they pass a law in favor of abortion, the Catholics will not mind anything. If any law is passed permitting gay life Catholics will abide by it. Infact catholics have nothing to do with any orderly life.

The religion is to keep quiet and leave the law matters to the mankind and their desires.

What you have written appears to be correct and I see that is the Catholicism now. Youhave a relaxed way in the matters of religeon. You do not take any guidnace from any of yoru sacred books about the way of your life.

It is alright. happy go lucky.**

Seriously planten, you ought to open up your eyes wider. Do Muslims gather around abortion clinics to protest the killing of innocents? Do Muslims love gays enough to educate them on the laws of God?

I live in peace, have my say in political issues, love my neighbours, i appreciate life, but i do not consider myself a slave of my government. There is only one government i recognize and that is the Magisterium.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

WW, Thanks. You have pointed out the utility of Catholicism to me. I also feel that is what your religion is.

Feelings… Well that’s part of the problem. You should try using reason; it’s a God given gift and shouldn’t go unused.

That is to leave the worldly matters to people to decide. If they pass a law in favor of abortion, the Catholics will not mind anything. If any law is passed permitting gay life Catholics will abide by it.

Well, that’s completely untrue and a foolish thing to say.

In fact catholics have nothing to do with any orderly life.

What do you mean by “orderly life”? Nazism, fascism and communism were/are pretty orderly. Is that what you mean?

** The religion is to keep quiet and leave the law matters to the mankind and their desires.**

Certainly not.

** What you have written appears to be correct and I see that is the Catholicism now.**

What I have written is that Catholicism isn’t a form of government and can’t really be compared to Islam in that way.

Youhave a relaxed way in the matters of religeon. You do not take any guidnace from any of yoru sacred books about the way of your life.

Ridiclious assumptions.

It is alright. happy go lucky.

I’m sure that’s easier for you. Enjoy.

 

[jen_fla]

I found tucked away in my Bible a page I wrote down and meant to transcribe it to the computer. I heard this preacher on the radio on my way home and memorized his four principles of Islam. When I came across this thread, I thought I would jump in with my own two cents.

Four Principles of Islam
Remember: Christianity 33 A.D., Islam 600 A.D., Mormonism 1829 A.D.

ABSOLUTES NULLIFY PREVIOUS ABSOLUTES The revelation to Mohammed by Gabriel the Archangel declares all previous revelations to be false or corrupt and that this is the final and true revelation by God to the world. First there was A and only A; then comes B which is better than A. The fallacy is, there is nothing to prevent C from occurring. This happened with Joseph Smith receiving the golden plates from the angel Moroni. Charles Taze Russell repeated this error in 1879 when he founded the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, launching the Jehovah Witnesses sect.

EXCLUSIVE LANGUAGE REQUIRED The Qur’an is originally written in Arabic. Translations into non-Arabic languages are faulty and thus, Moslem scholars say the only true Qur’an is preserved in Arabic. This makes the scriptures of Islam inaccessible to the masses. To practice Islam and receive the promises of salvation requires the adoption of the Arabic language and its culture. While Mohammed is not known to have performed a miracle like Moses or Jesus Christ, Moslems say the Qur’an is the greatest miracle for all mankind. If it is truly a revelation from God, then why must Moslems learn Arabic to read the Qur’an?

AUTHENTIC STANDARD OR REFERENCE MISSING It is claimed that Jesus Christ did proclaim the Good News, the Gospel of salvation but the Bible in its present form is corrupt and unfortunately, the original Gospel is hopelessly lost. Christians today do not have an accurate translation of the Bible and never will. The fallacy here is if the original translation is indeed lost, you do not have a unit of measure, a solid reference by which you can compare current translations. Thus, Moslems who refer to a so-called Gospel of Barnabas are in the same predicament. It is surprising that Moslems have no problem trumping Christian scriptures as corrupt but yet use the Gospel of Barnabas to authenticate Islam.

EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS The biggest obstacle to free dialogue between Moslems and non-believers is this principle: Moslem scholars reserve the right to impugn, detract, nullify or otherwise negate other religions, their leaders and practices. The same right is not extended to opponents of Islam.

Dear reader: I heard these principles outlined by a preacher on the radio. I do not recall his name but he had a strong Indian accent and spoke the Queen’s English. I was on the way home listening and was so impressed that I pulled over off the highway and wrote down these four principles back in December, 2004.

Pray for the conversion of our Moslem brethren and when speaking with them, remember *“always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence. . .” *(1 Peter 3:15-16). Study up on your own faith. The best way to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ is by your example. “For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit…The virginity of Mary, her giving birth, and also the death of the Lord, were hidden from the prince of this world–three mysteries loudly proclaimed, but wrought in the silence of God.”(Ignatius of Antioch in his epistle to the Ephesians (vv. 18-19), which he wrote while under arrest and heading to Rome for his martyrdom, A.D. 110.)

See Call of the Minaret by Terry L Frazier at catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204fea1.asp

excellent post.

and i really needed to hear the last part. stick around these threads and you’ll see how hard it is sometimes to follow that wisdom.

 

[rikkk1958]

I am puzzled by the rhetorics of Planten but I can not resist in making comments about his posts because it really is weird and out of bounds. Why are we debating with this guy? Are we really thinking we can teach him or are we fools in responding to him? I don’t know how old he is but I am guessing we are debating with a person age between 14 and 18. Perhaps we are trying to correct him because his posts were out of ordinary which means they are too shallow and his reasonings are not of a scholarly work but just plain simple that a third grade can tell if the reasoning is within their level. Even Muslim Woman has the guts to say that a sin of stealing is gauge by the stolen amount. Stealing is stealing and it has no bounds. And what are they talking about punishments from our Bible? This is hard to understand the reason of looking from the Bible for the punishment of stealing. Can’t muslims don’t understand what is sin? Can’t they understand what is mercy or forgiveness? Can’t they understand what is love? Should God bother to address the punishments of every unlawful acts of criminals? I just do not get it! This is just to prove that the quran is MAN MADE. God will never say that the hands should be cut off for stealing. This contradicts God’s being as merciful. I am sure muhammed once again made an error in hearing from Bible scholars during his time referring to Jesus’ teachings of cutting one’s hand if it causes it to sin. This teaching of Jesus is not to be taken literally here because it adresses the morals men should abide. Which means that you have to correct your life before judgment day and the lesson of your hand not with you during your journey to heaven is better than your whole life not being there. A figure of speech that is not to be taken literally because a sane person will understandably get the meaning and the true intention is only to teach what is right or wrong.

 

[planten]

What you’re talking about here is justice and remedy and those things in the West are left to secular governments. Catholicism isn’t a theocracy and the bible isn’t a book of legislation.

Unlike Islam the job of Catholicism isn’t to govern so you can’t compare them that way. Catholicism has only one job; to offer the love of God to everyone and that’s it; that’s all it’s been commissioned to do.

Islam makes the claim: “Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate”, but in practice Allah sure likes to see the blood flow.

That is the best reply I have had so far. Only three paras, but all are to the point (to some point). I appreciate it. My last reply / comments were done in a hurry. Thanks very much.

 

[planten]

excellent post.

and i really needed to hear the last part. stick around these threads and you’ll see how hard it is sometimes to follow that wisdom.

jen fla, you have commented on the post of Jguerra who listened on the radio. Probably was angel Gabriel was speaking to people.

1. Quran does not nullify the Torah and the bible NT.
2. Quran does not say a bad word about any prophet.
3. Just like Jesus came to direct the attention of the jews to the good side of the law, Muhammad also came to give some decision about the conflicts between Jews and christians.
4. Islam has told that all religios were originally true. But people later misbehaved with their scripture and spoiled the words of God. They added and replaced the original words by their own words.
5. The corruption was of two types: 1. The changing of the original text. 2. Altering the meaning of the original text. I am sure the church has good experience of what the Jews were doing when Jesus came. And what Jesus advised and taught.His whole mission was to correct the Jews.
6. If the Jews were not corrupted, there was no need for any one (Jesus) to come. So it happens in all nations So it happens in all nations.
7. Corruption of one kind or the other takes place. It is a mercy of Allah that the first type of corruption has been stopped in Islam. The words (text) of the revelation cannot be changed. It is well protected.
8. The original menaings of the Quran are also protected by some other means, not to be described here now.
9. So Islam or the Quran is perfectly correct in line with the previous revelations, Torah, teh Psalms and bible NT. It supports them all (with the required differences).

There is no need of any radio broadcast. The four principles described by Jguerra are not from God. They are just some good wishful thinking of a person.

 

[planten]

I am puzzled by the rhetorics of Planten but I can not resist in making comments about his posts because it really is weird and out of bounds. Why are we debating with this guy? Are we really thinking we can teach him or are we fools in responding to him? I don’t know how old he is but I am guessing we are debating with a person age between 14 and 18. Perhaps we are trying to correct him because his posts were out of ordinary which means they are too shallow and his reasonings are not of a scholarly work but just plain simple that a third grade can tell if the reasoning is within their level. Even Muslim Woman has the guts to say that a sin of stealing is gauge by the stolen amount. Stealing is stealing and it has no bounds. And what are they talking about punishments from our Bible? This is hard to understand the reason of looking from the Bible for the punishment of stealing. Can’t muslims don’t understand what is sin? Can’t they understand what is mercy or forgiveness? Can’t they understand what is love? Should God bother to address the punishments of every unlawful acts of criminals? I just do not get it! This is just to prove that the quran is MAN MADE. God will never say that the hands should be cut off for stealing. This contradicts God’s being as merciful. I am sure muhammed once again made an error in hearing from Bible scholars during his time referring to Jesus’ teachings of cutting one’s hand if it causes it to sin. This teaching of Jesus is not to be taken literally here because it adresses the morals men should abide. Which means that you have to correct your life before judgment day and the lesson of your hand not with you during your journey to heaven is better than your whole life not being there. A figure of speech that is not to be taken literally because a sane person will understandably get the meaning and the true intention is only to teach what is right or wrong.

** rikkk, you should have been kind enough to increase my age by a few years. Thank you very much for reminding me the good words of Jesus when he said “If your hand is going to commit sin, cut it off before it does so.” You could have given me the reference to that beautiful quotation of Jesus.

There has been a lot of controversy about the literal meanings and metaphorical meaning. WE suggested that the word “son” and “begotten” were metaphorical. But the christians insisted that they were in real terms. Now the words of Jesus about chopping off the bad hands is being called symbolic only. Please have one standard.

Those words of Jesus settle the problem for us about chopping of the hand of the thief. Next, I am still waiting to learn something of the old wine (bible OT) about stealing. Remember your loving and merciful God was not loving and merciful before Jesus arrived. Because there were a lot of orders about killing ( e.g. the adulterer etc.). How come God changed his mode and mind with time?**