Islam

[dolphinlove]

I know you have the NT tied up with OT for some purpose even though you do not agree to the law in the Torah.

Wrong again! You dont even have the slightest idea why the OT and the NT are together, yet you continually attack our scriptures. You have no idea how the 2 work together, you dont know anything about the prophecy. Nothing. Yet you still throw stones. The funny thing is, you dont even know about your own religions past, yet you seem to think you know about ours.
I would like for you to show me where we dont agree with the torah, go on, give us evidence.

That is from OT (not the offical book of cjristians), some doubtful just a few words in the whole book which you use to derive the required meanings. In these verses, there is no mention of not marrying more than one wife. The prophets of the israelis were proper persons. They did marry more than one wife. You cannot add your own meaning into things i.e. “so that they are one.” That is nothing against polygamy

The other chapters i point out have Jesus using that exact passage i first pointed out to you.
Mat19
4 He answered, 'Have you not read that the Creator from the beginning made them male and female
5 and that he said: This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and the two become one flesh?
Do you see where it says WIFE and not WIVES. Wife means only ONE, not many.

They are the very wise words of Jesus. But just a few words telling every one that man should not try to divorce his wife. Our teachings are same. But to derive mor ethan that from these verses is surely your bad work. You are trying to over do something. Surely. There is nothing strictly against polygamy, not a word. But you are making up those things. God forbids such things.

I just quoted for you where it says WIFE and not WIVES.
And also you have read where two become one.
Is this concept hard for you to understand planten? Is this one of the times because the scripture does not suit your purpose, you ignore the facts?

I cannot check those things. You may post or I will later open bible gateway and check them. I do not believe that you have anything in your NT against polygamy.

I have shown you at least 5 times in the last 2 post alone to prove polygamy is not accepted in Christianity.
Your problem is, because it does not say directly ‘you cant have more than one wife’, you cant understand it.
But when it says wife, that means one and one only.

 

[swariffin]

jen fla, you have commented on the post of Jguerra who listened on the radio. Probably was angel Gabriel was speaking to people.

1. Quran does not nullify the Torah and the bible NT.
2. Quran does not say a bad word about any prophet.
3. Just like Jesus came to direct the attention of the jews to the good side of the law, Muhammad also came to give some decision about the conflicts between Jews and christians.
4. Islam has told that all religios were originally true. But people later misbehaved with their scripture and spoiled the words of God. They added and replaced the original words by their own words.
5. The corruption was of two types: 1. The changing of the original text. 2. Altering the meaning of the original text. I am sure the church has good experience of what the Jews were doing when Jesus came. And what Jesus advised and taught.His whole mission was to correct the Jews.
6. If the Jews were not corrupted, there was no need for any one (Jesus) to come. So it happens in all nations So it happens in all nations.
7. Corruption of one kind or the other takes place. It is a mercy of Allah that the first type of corruption has been stopped in Islam. The words (text) of the revelation cannot be changed. It is well protected.
8. The original menaings of the Quran are also protected by some other means, not to be described here now.
9. So Islam or the Quran is perfectly correct in line with the previous revelations, Torah, teh Psalms and bible NT. It supports them all (with the required differences).

There is no need of any radio broadcast. The four principles described by Jguerra are not from God. They are just some good wishful thinking of a person.

Aw. come on, Planten. Torah said "Do not Kill (without any additions), NT said “Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you”. What Quran says …?? “Kill the unbeliever, and so on…”. So, where is the correct in line of Quran with the previous revelation??

 

[swariffin]

You’d be better off a Scientologist than an Ahmadiyya. :whacky:

I am about to answer Planten, but you did it for me. Thanks brother.

 

[swariffin]

planten, do you really believe your words when you say, “love is not so necessary”?

…really? or is this another example of Christian says “up” so you say “down”… we say “hot” you say “cold”… for no other reason than to resist?

He forgets that one of the name of Allah is “The Mercyful one” I don’t know that how come love has nothing to do with mercyfull.

 

[swariffin]

** The problem with church is that it did not have any law about stealing or killing or abusing or hygene or marriage / divorce. Torah had all the law. So did Quran. When church does not have any law then it should keep quiet about law matters.

jen fla:
in the quran it is stated to chop off the hands of those that steal. i have brought that up several times. you are mistaken to assume that when we do not agree with the punishment that condones the act. stealing is a sin and goes against God’s will, however, is there not a better way in dealing with a thief than to hack off their hands?

no muslim gave me a response to this question, so i shall ask again:**

The law is in the Quran about stealing. There is no need to ask anything from Muslims. But I would request jen fla to suggest some alternative practical good punishment for the thief please. Let us have some advice from the church now.

Stealing is not a minor offence. It develops into theft and robbery and telling lies etc. Religion should not tolerate it. I wonder what was the punishment in Torah for a thief. Could jen fla please tell us. Thanks.

Ups. Sorry Planten. You are correct. Islam cannot distinguish Politic and Religion. I forget this thing.

 

[SunfromtheWest]

Aw. come on, Planten. Torah said "Do not Kill (without any additions), NT said “Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you”. What Quran says …?? “Kill the unbeliever, and so on…”. So, where is the correct in line of Quran with the previous revelation??

Can you please refer to your sources… and stop taking the quran out of context… if you want i can do the same with the bible.

An example of taking things out of context:

Matthew 10:32-39

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

Do i think Jesus came to spread War?

OF COURSE NOT, Muslims and Christians would be up in arms over that kind of a comment.

But again, i’m taking this quote out of context, I didn’t know who it was told to, when it was given, and for what reasons.

peace.

 

[planten]

Wrong again! You dont even have the slightest idea why the OT and the NT are together, yet you continually attack our scriptures. You have no idea how the 2 work together, you dont know anything about the prophecy. Nothing. Yet you still throw st****ones. The funny thing is, you dont even know about your own religions past, yet you seem to think you know about ours.
I would like for you to show me where we dont agree with the torah, go on, give us evidence.

**DiL, I need not show you. You do not follow the commandments, circumcision, sabath and you believe in Trinity. The list could be very long. You know that Church teaching is totally different to the Jewish teachings.

You should know that Jesus forbade you to put new wine in old bottles. You should put new wine (NT) in new wine sacks and not in old winesacks (OT).**

The other chapters i point out have Jesus using that exact passage i first pointed out to you.
Mat19
4 He answered, 'Have you not read that the Creator from the beginning made them male and female
5 and that he said: This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and the two become one flesh?
Do you see where it says WIFE and not WIVES. Wife means only ONE, not many.

Your monogamy is hanging on just one letter “S”. How bad !! The OT did not press for monogamy. Do You see that you are different.

I just quoted for you where it says WIFE and not WIVES.
And also you have read where two become one.
Is this concept hard for you to understand planten? Is this one of the times because the scripture does not suit your purpose, you ignore the facts?

**You are talking out of place. It is reported that Joseph the carpenatar, the father of Jesus had two wives. What do you say? Please read Isaiah ch.4 , verses shown below. They are a prophecy of the prophet Isaiah about a prophet coming in whose time there will be polygamy.

Isaiah 4
1 In that day seven women
will take hold of one man
and say, “We will eat our own food
and provide our own clothes;
only let us be called by your name.
Take away our disgrace!”

The Branch of the Lord
2 In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel**.

It means there will be wars in the times of THAT PROPHET and many youngmen will be killed in the way of Allah. There will be shortage of men in those days and ladies (widows and others) will not find any man for marriage. So the prophet will order young men to marry more than one lady so that there is no corruption in the society. Please try to understand this important prophecy from Isaiah.

I have shown you at least 5 times in the last 2 post alone to prove polygamy is not accepted in Christianity.
Your problem is, because it does not say directly ‘you cant have more than one wife’, you cant understand it.
But when it says wife, that means one and one only.

Yes, you have shown me and I thank you for that DiL. Welcome again please.

 

[rikkk1958]

Can you please refer to your sources… and stop taking the quran out of context… if you want i can do the same with the bible.

An example of taking things out of context:

Matthew 10:32-39

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

Do i think Jesus came to spread War?

OF COURSE NOT, Muslims and Christians would be up in arms over that kind of a comment.

But again, i’m taking this quote out of context, I didn’t know who it was told to, when it was given, and for what reasons.

peace.

Can you tell us then how you interpret this passage. We will discuss it after you do so.

 

[Jguerra]

jen fla, you have commented on the post of Jguerra who listened on the radio. Probably was angel Gabriel was speaking to people.

and

There is no need of any radio broadcast. The four principles described by Jguerra are not from God. They are just some good wishful thinking of a person.

Which brings to mind principle #4:
EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS The biggest obstacle to free dialogue between Moslems and non-believers is this principle: Moslem scholars reserve the right to impugn, detract, nullify or otherwise negate other religions, their leaders and practices. The same right is not extended to opponents of Islam.

So, while we can point out errors and bad practices (which can be clearly refuted), Moslems will not allow us to do the same.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… while we can point out errors and bad practices (which can be clearly refuted), Moslems will not allow us to do the same.

Some Christians regularly bash our beloved Prophet (p) using nasty words . Muslims respect all Prophets (p) & they don’t use dirty words against any Prophet of God. Sadly few non-Muslims are taking this advantage . I think , it’s the main obstacle here for not having a healthy dialogue between Muslims & Christians.

 

[planten]

Aw. come on, Planten. Torah said "Do not Kill (without any additions), NT said “Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you”. What Quran says …?? “Kill the unbeliever, and so on…”. So, where is the correct in line of Quran with the previous revelation??

**Swariffin, all three are correct. Remember that you have not done justice to Quran. Quran does not order to kill any innocent peaceful non-believer. But it allows to kill any war mongering hostile disbeliever (kafir).

So all the three are correct. Torah is right, i.e. not to kill without reason. Quran says the same thing. The bible NT says something which was only for that time. It is alright if any one can do it even now. But that is very un-natural uphill task. Not every one can do that. I see very few christians doing it here on the net now.

So why to preach it?**

 

[planten]

Can you tell us then how you interpret this passage. We will discuss it after you do so.

** No need to start the controversy. The words are plain and simple unless you want to give them some proverbial meaning. Jesus is talking and telling that he had not come to make peace in the land… You can understand the same as we do. So why are you asking any one. Please go ahead with your good comments about those verses.

The purpose was only to point out that context of the verses is very important. You should not use the verses of the Quran without context, as we should also not do the same about bible.**

 

[planten]

and

Which brings to mind principle #4:
EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS The biggest obstacle to free dialogue between Moslems and non-believers is this principle: Moslem scholars reserve the right to impugn, detract, nullify or otherwise negate other religions, their leaders and practices. The same right is not extended to opponents of Islam.

So, while we can point out errors and bad practices (which can be clearly refuted), Moslems will not allow us to do the same.

Jguerra, that is not right. We allow you to discuss what you like. Welcome. But the you (or the christians) have special scales for themselves. They say that all mankind is sinner, even all the prophets are sinners. But jesus is not sinner. Do you see something special there?

Then there is a belief that angel appeared to joseph the carpentar and told him that Mary was pregnant… But when it is said that the angel appeared to Muhammad, they say it was not an angel. It was the satan.

then it is being said that God revealed Himself only to the children of Israel (Including the christians). That God did not reveal anything to any other nation.

I tell you that there is a long list of such things against teh good universal principles of Islam.

You are quoting your own principle #4 on us without reason. We do not deny any of the good things of church. We love and respect Jesus and Mary. but we need to hear even one good word from the church people about Muhammad.

So where is your principle #4. It may be applying more to you, not to us Muslims.

 

[ralphinal]

jen fla, you have commented on the post of Jguerra who listened on the radio. Probably was angel Gabriel was speaking to people.

1. Quran does not nullify the Torah and the bible NT.

Then why does it contradict them?

1. Quran does not say a bad word about any prophet.

whatever.

 

[Jguerra]

Jguerra, that is not right. We allow you to discuss what you like. Welcome. But the you (or the christians) have special scales for themselves. They say that all mankind is sinner, even all the prophets are sinners. But jesus is not sinner. Do you see something special there?.

Yes, I do. While I could quote Bible verse after verse to prove it, you will say I am using corrupted scriptures or an interpretation.

Then there is a belief that angel appeared to joseph the carpentar and told him that Mary was pregnant… But when it is said that the angel appeared to Muhammad, they say it was not an angel. It was the satan.

It’s not a matter of belief but clearly stated in the NT. That the angel appeared to Joseph is not a matter of speculation but fact. My assertion is of no importance to you since you do not believe the Christian bible to be true. That is, it is a corrupted document.

I tell you that there is a long list of such things against teh good universal principles of Islam.

You are quoting your own principle #4 on us without reason. We do not deny any of the good things of church. We love and respect Jesus and Mary. but we need to hear even one good word from the church people about Muhammad.

So where is your principle #4. It may be applying more to you, not to us Muslims.

.
I beg to differ planten. If it were true that Muslims do not reserve the right to impugn, detract, nullify or otherwise negate other religions, their leaders and practices, they would easily see how Islam fails to compare with authentic Christianity.

 

[jen_fla]

Salaam/peace

Some Christians regularly bash our beloved Prophet (p) using nasty words . Muslims respect all Prophets (p) & they don’t use dirty words against any Prophet of God. Sadly few non-Muslims are taking this advantage . I think , it’s the main obstacle here for not having a healthy dialogue between Muslims & Christians.

whatever. as a muslim, planten denies Jesus’ divinity and sees Him as a prophet and here is what planten had to say:

R_Not, I tell you that you are a kafir. And your Jesus was the greatest cheater and liar. He tried to be the king of the Jews. But when he was caught, he changed his wordings and said that his kingdom was not of this world. See his cleverness?

I may have to discuss the doubtful (manner) birth of your Jesus again on this forum with more emphasis soon.

so please don’t say that muslims respect all prophets, because NOT one muslim poster contradicted him.

i am done responding to planten. obviously he does not want to learn or is incapable.

moderators please take note:

above we have planten calling r-not a kafir.

and here he makes this statement:

Swariffin, all three are correct. Remember that you have not done justice to Quran. Quran does not order to kill any innocent peaceful non-believer. But it allows to kill any war mongering hostile disbeliever (kafir).

So all the three are correct. Torah is right, i.e. not to kill without reason. Quran says the same thing. The bible NT says something which was only for that time. It is alright if any one can do it even now. But that is very un-natural uphill task. Not every one can do that. I see very few christians doing it here on the net now.

So why to preach it?

 

[trdchubi]

**
There has been a lot of controversy about the literal meanings and metaphorical meaning. WE suggested that the word “son” and “begotten” were metaphorical. But the christians insisted that they were in real terms. Now the words of Jesus about chopping off the bad hands is being called symbolic only. Please have one standard.**

Yes we do have one standard, and the standard is simple, the Christians love their lives and by all means will sustain it. We love the body that is given to us, for our bodies were made to be temples of the Holy Spirit of God.

The message is simple. Jesus knew men carnal desires towards coveting women with their eyes. He simply explained to them that we must resist our desire towards other women and limit it towards one’s own wife. That’s why it is costly to sin this way and the prevention of it is extreme if you will put that way.

MEN MUST BE IN CONTROL with THEIRdesire and actions. JESUS is saying men are responsible and answerable to God on what they do. He states that, this desire is NOT in anyways an OUTSIDE factor but rather an INSIDE FACTOR. Adam is the inventor of “The women made me do it syndrome” remember?

Why do you think Muslim men hide their women?

Simple because they are incapable of self control. Muslim men hide them because somehow their cohorts might rape their daughters and wives on the simple reason of public lewdness.

Have you heard of how many women are rape victims in Saudi Arabia. Take note they were rape because they were inappropriately dressed.
How ironic that the raped women are the proprietors and the rapist is the VICTIM.

“The women made me do it syndrome” again. What do you think?

http://www.vgsbooks.com/thumbnails/flags/israel_flag.jpg

God Bless the Chosen People of God, Long Lived the Nation of Israel.
For we Serve a Mighty God who KEEPS His promise

 

[trdchubi]

**
There has been a lot of controversy about the literal meanings and metaphorical meaning. WE suggested that the word “son” and “begotten” were metaphorical. But the christians insisted that they were in real terms. Now the words of Jesus about chopping off the bad hands is being called symbolic only. Please have one standard.**

Yes we do have one standard, and the standard is simple, the Christians love their lives and by all means will sustain it. We love the body that is given to us, for our bodies were made to be temples of the Holy Spirit of God.

The message is simple. Jesus knew men carnal desires towards coveting women with their eyes. He simply explained to them that we must resist our desire towards other women and limit it towards one’s own wife. That’s why it is costly to sin this way and the prevention of it is allegorically extreme if we must put it that way.

MEN MUST BE IN CONTROL with THEIRdesire and actions. JESUS is saying men are responsible and answerable to God on what they do. He states that, this desire is NOT in anyways an OUTSIDE factor but rather an INSIDE FACTOR. Adam is the inventor of “The women made me do it syndrome” remember?

Why do you think Muslim men hide their women?

Simple because they are incapable of self control. Muslim men hide them because somehow their cohorts might rape their daughters and wives on the simple reason of public lewdness.

Have you heard of how many women are rape victims in Saudi Arabia. Take note they were rape because the muslim men just wanted doing it with them.
How ironic that the raped women are the proprietors of the adultery and the muslim rapist is the VICTIM.

http://www.vgsbooks.com/thumbnails/flags/israel_flag.jpg

God Bless the Chosen People of God, Long Lived the Nation of Israel.
For we Serve a Mighty God who KEEPS His promise

 

[trdchubi]

** brownjt, Th christian faith is very weak in the matters of law and guidance. The book (bible NT) is quiet on many matters. It does not specifically guide the followers in the matters of marriage or divorce or eating… or salvation or Compulsion. Nothing is there in bible.**

Really the New Testament?

Marriage:

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. Ephesians 5:22-30 NT

Divorce:

“It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. 'But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery”. Matthew 5:31-32 NT

Eating:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Romans 14:1-3 NT

For food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. 1 Corinthians 8:8 NT

Salvation:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 NT

Compulsion:

“Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth…He forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead.” Revelation 13:1,16 NT

Yes the Bible teaches compulsion about the satanic religion of the antichrist. (It is not the Catholic church like all doomsday soothsayers would like to say it) The later religion that say they are not compulsive…i wonder what could it be?

NOW THOSE ARE ALL NEW TESTAMENT TEACHINGS, i tell you it’s more than weak it has AUTHORITY AND TRUTH in it!

http://www.vgsbooks.com/thumbnails/flags/israel_flag.jpg

 

[agnostic_in_ist]

God need not be using love. Love is not so necessary. It is justice which is more necessary. So your love falls short of the real needs. t

Good folks, this here is ALL you need to know about islam and why you should not even bother with “debating” with muslims. I have been reading through this forum and you are all wise to notice the trend: muslims are incapable of logical debate. They use out right lies, ad hominem attacks (attacking the individual) and red herring tactics (changing the subject or completely ignoring direct questions).

But, what planten has shown here is the true face and true threat of islam: there is NO love in islam. islam (yes I refuse to capitalize it just as I refuse to capitalize naziism or nazi) has 99 names for allah. Not one of those names is love. platen then goes on to emphasize that justice is what matters. Look at the history of islam. What is justice to islam and mulsims? Revenge.

I too used to feel sorry for muslims. No longer. After having lived among them for 4 years (in the ONLY secular islamic country which BTW is hated by other muslims BECAUSE it is secular) there is no love or sympathy in my heart for them because love is a totally alien concept for them. I do not blame islam for their ignorance. I blame them. God gave them brains to use but they refuse to use them. planten himself has screeched over and over that the kuran mentions the Bible. It does. In the Chapter called the Imrans their allah says he gave the Gospels to the Christians and they are still his word and valid. planten, as all other muslims do, then turns around and claims the Bible is changed. How any fully rational, thinking human being cannot see that blatant contradiction is beyond me. They, of course can see it, but being the hateful, loveless, vengeful creatures they are they would rather call you kafirs and accuse you of “abusing” their weak political ideology.

The ahadiths…well, on several islamic sites muslim scholars have used the bukhari hadith to “prove” that Ayesha was much older than nine when mohammed married her. Yet, bukhari hadith is one in particular that demonstrates the depravities of mohammed’s character so of course it is one that muslims cry is invalid. I have asked many muslims, in forums and in person, if it is invalid how on earth can they expect any logical, free-thinking person to accept the arguments that Ayesha was older than nine based on what they claim is an invalid hadith? The responses range from stone-cold silence, accusations against the islamic scholars, claims that my mother is a whore and of course the expected threats of rape and death.

They accuse us of cherry-picking only “bad” surahs and hadiths. Yet, they do the same only cherry-picking the “good” surahs and hadiths or flat out denying the bad ones exist. They are, in fact, the epitome of hypocrisy.

I could go on and on about the ugliness that is islam. I do know real muslims. Not “moderate” muslims living in the west and putting on a soft and gentle front for the unsuspecting dhimmis. I am not saying all muslims are inherently evil. I truly believe many of them are just suffering from some form of Stockholm Syndrome. They are born and raised into an ideology and many times cultures that are devoid of a loving God and human rights. Most of their cultures are misogynistic and lack basic concepts of free-will and human rights. Throw on top of that an ideology that is devoid of love, equality, human rights and free-will. You will never “guide them to the light.” That is in God’s hands.

The best you can do is try to show the ugly truth to those among you who are ignorant. Those who do not see the danger of islamic ideology. It is not worth your time or sanity to debate with the islamists themselves because as you have seen they are not capable of any kind of logical or sane debate. I envy you because you still hold the Holy Spirit in your heart and can feel compassion for muslims. I cannot. I can no longer turn the other cheek. I am willing to sacrifice my eternal soul so that my nieces and nephews can grow, thrive and love in a world filled with the LOVE OF GOD and not as oppressed and subjecated dhimmis under a worldwide caliphate ruled by sharia law.

I will remind you again of planten’s words because, rather than being an exception of islamic thinking, his is the rule. Remember, that of the 99 names for allah in the kuran NOT ONE is love. And yes, planten, I am scared. Scared of a “god” who knows no love but is full of revenge. That is YOUR truth, so yes, I am scared of YOUR truth.

Good people, your hearts are full of love, forgiveness and compassion because God IS love, forgiveness and compassion but here as you see, in the words of a true muslim, the “god” of islam is full of the exact opposite:

** God need not be using love. Love is not so necessary. It is justice which is more necessary. So your love falls short of the real needs.** t