ISLAM

[theors]

I have read the Qu’ran and my conclusion is that it is NOT a religion of peace, etc. It is a political philosophy, like Naziism or Communism, that is disguised as a religion. It’s basic tenet is to remove anyone who does not accept it by any means possible
(murder, assasination, etc.). The god of Islam IS NOT the GOD
that Christians and Jews worship (if you don’t believe me, read the Qu’ran).

You CANNOT dialogue or reason with Islam. Islam today is still intent on conquering the world and is seeking revenge for the humiliation of the Crusades. There is no such thing as a good or sympathetic or cooperative Muslim.

My question is, when is the Church (the Vatican) going to wake up and recognize what Judaism has know for centuries…you
cannot make peace with Satan and his cohorts?

 

[Pellman]

theors:

There is no such thing as a good or sympathetic or cooperative Muslim.

Do you actually know any Muslims?

 

[Michael_C]

I always thought the religion was hijacked by extremists, but the lack of Muslims speaking out against the beheadings is shaking my confidence in them in general.

 

[Carrie_Andrews]

I know a few people(6 or so) who are muslims and tend to agree that they are very hard to evangelise to. The men I know kind of yell the same things at me, like “why did Jesus say he wasn’t God” and “there is only one God”(cannot or will not try to grasp the concept of the Trinity). Some of the muslims I know, know and practice thier faith well and seem to really Love and respect God. I really admire that in them! I also admire thier fasting. On the other hand I don’t think they are totally honest in stateing thier agenda, which I believe is to convert the entire world by what ever means possible. All the muslims I’ve talked to are friendly to the Jews they come in contact with, but when asked say they don’t care for Jews as a whole. One muslim I really have a problem with is Yassar Arrafat. He is a Murderer, not a Prime Minister. It’s unbelieveable to me how he can say he’s for peace and people believe and support him!

 

[zange]

I would be terribly sad if a Muslim read theors’s comments and concluded that it is representative of Catholic thought about Islam. The Holy Father is correct on this issue, and I’ll take his reading of the Qu’ran (Koran) anyday over theors’s reading. I also know devout Muslims. And they have been speaking out, around the world, against the beheadings.

But I’m most interested in theors’s logic for his conclusions. He adopts a sola scriptura approach (“just read the Koran”) for his conclusions. Not a very Catholic way of understanding a religion. Yes, read the Koran-- with a devout (Catholic) heart. But also understand the historical development of Islam as a branching out from within the monotheistic tradition of Judeo-Christianity. The God they worship is the same god of Jews and Christians : the God of Abraham. I don’t encourage anyone to join Islam, just as I don’t encourage Catholics to turn to Protestant churches. I don’t accept the Islamic interpretation of Jesus Christ, or of Muhammed. But to reject their own efforts to be faithful to the God of Abraham, and to do so with such hatred, anger and defensiveness is not Catholic, not even Christian. Let us not forget “our own” sins: how our own faith has been “hijacked” by violent people for bad causes. But most importantly, let us not give in to hatred. Let us join the Holy Father in his efforts at inter-faith understanding. I believe he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[kjvail]

Well I read what is in Vatican II and I have to admit I have a problem with the idea that the god of the Koran who justifed Mohammad’s life of rape, murder, incest, pedophilia and bandrity is the same God I worship.

That is certainly not the understanding of the Church historically. I did find some articles that do seem to get it, much as I hate to admit it - from an SSPX site, the Angelus. I’m sorry guys but these folks understand what apparently the mainline Church refuses to see.

sspx.ca/Angelus/2001_October/Islam.htm

 

[Michael_C]

zange:

I would be terribly sad if a Muslim read theors’s comments and concluded that it is representative of Catholic thought about Islam. The Holy Father is correct on this issue, and I’ll take his reading of the Qu’ran (Koran) anyday over theors’s reading. I also know devout Muslims. And they have been speaking out, around the world, against the beheadings.

But I’m most interested in theors’s logic for his conclusions. He adopts a sola scriptura approach (“just read the Koran”) for his conclusions. Not a very Catholic way of understanding a religion. Yes, read the Koran-- with a devout (Catholic) heart. But also understand the historical development of Islam as a branching out from within the monotheistic tradition of Judeo-Christianity. The God they worship is the same god of Jews and Christians : the God of Abraham. I don’t encourage anyone to join Islam, just as I don’t encourage Catholics to turn to Protestant churches. I don’t accept the Islamic interpretation of Jesus Christ, or of Muhammed. But to reject their own efforts to be faithful to the God of Abraham, and to do so with such hatred, anger and defensiveness is not Catholic, not even Christian. Let us not forget “our own” sins: how our own faith has been “hijacked” by violent people for bad causes. But most importantly, let us not give in to hatred. Let us join the Holy Father in his efforts at inter-faith understanding. I believe he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Zange,

In speaking out, I’m referring in general to leaders of the muslim community. They seem to make their point when their civil rights are violated but it is my impression that they dissappear when atrocities occur.
To balance my feelings I think of St.francis of Assisi who had meetings with the sultan and muslim leaders and even exchanged ideas on prayer with them. If he could build a bridge so can we.

 

[zange]

On Carrie’s point–Yes, Arafat appears to be Moslem, I don’t know how devout. And I agree the PLO is a horrible terrorist group. But we should not overlook that there are Christians working with him in the PLO, too. It’s not really a “Islamic” group, say like Hezbollah or the Wahabist Al-Queda (sp?).

And, I’m sorry. I’m not going to take my information on Islam from a break-away heretical group of would-be Catholics. If I take my Christianity from the Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit in its teaching on faith, I’ll take my understanding of Islam from the same authority.

And, yes, I support President Bush and the war on terrorism–as do some Muslims (let’s not make this into a religious war–it is NOT). The Holy Father’s opinions on the invasion of Iraq are not concerning matters of faith (keep in mind he is also head of the Vatican, a political entity with diplomatic relations); his understanding of Islam is much more a matter of faith.

 

[zange]

Hi MIchael.

I just saw your comments to me. I don’t know which leaders you are thinking of. I guess we’d have to review leaders, groups and comments together. To be honest, I haven’t done that. But I had the impression after the latest beheading of the US contractor (before the S. Korean was beheaded) there was a rash of statements from Islamic spokesmen denouncing it. No?

 

[Michael_C]

zange:

Hi MIchael.

I just saw your comments to me. I don’t know which leaders you are thinking of. I guess we’d have to review leaders, groups and comments together. To be honest, I haven’t done that. But I had the impression after the latest beheading of the US contractor (before the S. Korean was beheaded) there was a rash of statements from Islamic spokesmen denouncing it. No?

Hi Zange,

The tone is changing. There has to be common ground for all of us. Maybe Abraham is the key.

 

[Southernrich]

theors:

The god of Islam IS NOT the GOD
that Christians and Jews worship (if you don’t believe me, read the Qu’ran).

No, I don’t believe you BECAUSE I believe the Church. Read Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate (both promulgated by Pope Paul VI), the Catholic Catechism, and Pope John Paul II’s Crossing the Threshold of Hope.

They all contradict your statement, which, sad to say, sounds like what the Fundies put out. Indeed, those people are very, very critical of our “false” church for considering the Moslems as anything except the Devil’s Own Servants.

If you think I’m being prejudiced, please check their websites and confirm their opinion of the unholy acceptance by the Church of the Moslems.

All that said, please follow the Church’s teachings on the non-Christian religions.

 

[zange]

Michael,

I never meant an uncharitable tone, either earlier or later, to you or others. Problem with internet is that it is hard to adjust or read a tone.
Anyway, my sense is your tone carries good humor and grace.
Bless you! That IS what we need to discuss interfaith issues.

 

[Michael_C]

zange:

Michael,

I never meant an uncharitable tone, either earlier or later, to you or others. Problem with internet is that it is hard to adjust or read a tone.
Anyway, my sense it your tone carries good humor and grace.
Bless you! That IS what we need to discuss interfaith issues.

LOL!! Sorry Zange. I meant the tone of the islamic world did seem to change with the beheading in Suadi. that was not meant to you at all.
I believe at heart we’re all on this planet together and statements like “God is great” while cutting off someones head should be offensive to anyone and everyone. I enjoy your comments and insight.

God bless you.

 

[Southernrich]

zange:

his understanding of Islam is much more a matter of faith.

And of fact. The Pope has two doctorates, and is an extremely intelligent man. Don’t dismiss him as just a pious old priest.

 

[kjvail]

Southernrich:

No, I don’t believe you BECAUSE I believe the Church. Read Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate (both promulgated by Pope Paul VI), the Catholic Catechism, and Pope John Paul II’s Crossing the Threshold of Hope.
They all contradict your statement, which, sad to say, sounds like what the Fundies put out. Indeed, those people are very, very critical of our “false” church for considering the Moslems as anything except the Devil’s Own Servants.

Thank you for these references. I was going to come back and say I want to understand this view of Islam, it’s a sticking point for me right now. I’m not good at obediance I guess. The reason “because I said so” does not go down for me very well. That is one of the attractions of Catholicism for me, there are explantions and sound reasoning behind the positions. I have yet to see what that reasoning is for this issue, I have to work on being humble enough to believe there is something I am missing here.
What I have seen is that for centuries the Church treated Islam as a danger to Christendom, now suddenly (it seems) they are saying we worship the same god and we should seek understanding.
I’m sorry I just don’t particularly want to understand a religion that teaches people to go into nighclubs and coffee houses with the express purpose of killing as many innocents as possible. I don’t want to understand a religion that teaches people to fly planes into buildings. I want to stop them from doing those things, by whatever means necessary.
I can look up the encyclicals you reference immeadiately, I’ve read the catechism, I’ll work on getting the book.

 

[Southernrich]

kjvail:

What I have seen is that for centuries the Church treated Islam as a danger to Christendom, now suddenly (it seems) they are saying we worship the same god and we should seek understanding.

Even Catholic countries have fought other Catholic countries. Does that mean that Catholicism is a danger to Catholicism? And we’ve fought Protestants, too. Perhaps the problem is in the people and not the faith.

I’m sorry I just don’t particularly want to understand a religion that teaches people to go into nighclubs and coffee houses with the express purpose of killing as many innocents as possible.

Islam doesn’t teach that. Some Moslems teach that.

I don’t want to understand a religion that teaches people to fly planes into buildings. I want to stop them from doing those things, by whatever means necessary.

The religion didn’t teach that. Fanatical Islamists taught that. Catholicism doesn’t teach that federal office buildings should be blown up. But, a Catholic named Timothy McVeigh, nevertheless did just that.

And, finally, belief in the One God doesn’t mean that a faith can’t have lots of sinners in it who can “twist” Scripture to their own ends. Islam is not monolitic. There’s no Moslem Pope at the top.

 

[kjvail]

Even Catholic countries have fought other Catholic countries. Does that mean that Catholicism is a danger to Catholicism? And we’ve fought Protestants, too. Perhaps the problem is in the people and not the faith.

I can accept that, people are falliable for sure.

Islam doesn’t teach that. Some Moslems teach that.
The religion didn’t teach that. Fanatical Islamists taught that

I don’t know about that, the Koran is pretty clear on that sort of thing. “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them” is pretty hard to misinterpet and that’s only one of litterally dozens of similar quotations.

Catholicism doesn’t teach that federal office buildings should be blown up. But, a Catholic named Timothy McVeigh, nevertheless did just that.

I could be wrong, but I don’t recall that McVeigh tried to justify his actions with religion. I would think the anti-Christian media would have been all over it if he had.

And, finally, belief in the One God doesn’t mean that a faith can’t have lots of sinners in it who can “twist” Scripture to their own ends. Islam is not monolitic. There’s no Moslem Pope at the top.

I’ve heard that cited as a signficant issue. Mohammad left no successor or structure so the infighting commenced almost immeadiately after his death. Hence today you have a wide variety of schools of Islam. The problem is all Islam claims the Koran is perfect, it is not like the Hebrew bible which we acknowledge was written by men who were inspired. Islam teaches that the Koran was written by Allah and only recited by Gabriel to Mohammad and then from Mohammad to everyone else, it cannot be changed - not even the punctuation.
The Papacy is something I should be grateful for, we have an authoritative teacher of the faith. So I should get busy and see what he’s trying to teach me… cause right now I don’t get it.

 

[Charles]

Thank you Sange and Southernrich for your posts. I have known many kind and generous moslems. I don’t share their faith, obviously, and I would like them all to become Catholic. But that does not mean I hate them or that they all hate me.

The family across the street from me is Moslem. After 9/11 I didn’t see them for a couple days, they basically just stayed out of site. But the following week the father and I were getting the mail at the same time. I waved at him and he waved back. Then he stopped getting his mail, walked across the street and hugged me and said how sorry he was about what had happened. No one can tell me that all Moslems hate us and are out to kill us. In many ways my family is closer to this family than many of our agnostic but nominally christian neighbors. This family has a serious devotion to their faith like my family does to ours, and while we disagree on much in that faith, our devotion still somehow binds us.

The reminder that St. Francis of Assisi led a mission of sorts to Islam is well taken! I couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[Calvin]

Southernrich:

The religion didn’t teach that. Fanatical Islamists taught that. Catholicism doesn’t teach that federal office buildings should be blown up. But, a Catholic named Timothy McVeigh, nevertheless did just that.

He never used religion as a basis for what he did.

He was probably an athiest at the time of the bombing and his last words were from Invictus which is a humanist poem. (Although he did receive last rites on the day of his execution. He found some sort of God between sentencing and the chair.)

This is a rumor/story that started circulating in liberal circles after 9/11. Folks would talk about Muslim terrorists and then I started hearing about the “Christian terrorist McVeigh.” He’s usually called a “Southern Baptist” in these stories (get a little dig in at the “fundies”). This is one of the few times I have heard him (correctly) called a Catholic. But they forget (or ignore) the fact that if he didn’t use Catholicism as the basis of his act (unlike the 9/11 terrorists) he can’t properly be called a Catholic terrorist.

Bottom line: “Islamic terrorists” use Islam as the basis of their actions. McVeigh’s basis was some kind of anti-Government, Waco, conspiracy theory not religion. He did what he did despite Catholic teaching not because of it.

-C

 

[Southernrich]

kjvail:

The problem is all Islam claims the Koran is perfect, it is not like the Hebrew bible which we acknowledge was written by men who were inspired. Islam teaches that the Koran was written by Allah and only recited by Gabriel to Mohammad and then from Mohammad to everyone else, it cannot be changed - not even the punctuation.

True. Many Fundamentalists hold pretty much the same view about the OT and the NT. There are some, usually referred to as KJV-Onlyists, who believe that that particular translation itself is inspired. Catholicism, however, believes that the Bible is absolutely inerrant as to faith and morals, but not about everything.