ISLAM

[MichaelTDoyle]

Ghosty:

Ok, now I feel I can properly approach your statements, thank you for responding so quickly.
…

All of this is to say that Islam is definately flawed, but not because it teaches hate. Rather, it doesn’t teach anything because there is no guideline for what one is supposed to learn from reading the Koran. .

I think you take the argument too far. To say the book teaches nothing is tantamount to saying that language is meaningless. The words have meaning, commonly agreed to. Kill unbelievers is pretty direct.

There’s a lot to be said about interpretation, but basic statements have to be evaluated or else ALL books are meaningless and this is evidently not the case. People can arrive to similar conclusions and a statement like Kill Unbelievers will lead 100 out of 100 people to the correct meaning I would think.

Kill unbelievers means:

a. don’t kill unbelievers
b. love your neighbor
c. kill fellow moslems
d. kill those who are not moslems

The Koran seems to be a bloody and violent credo as proven time and again. Couple that with Man’s fallen nature and Islam is a recipe foir human disaster that is played out Today against Christians all over the world from what I’ve read

I have to agree with the other poster. I am obedient to the magisterium, but the Church’s teachings on Islam are disturbing as well as the Pope’s actions. But I do believe that Moslems are part of God’s plan. I just don’t understand it. But I don’t understand a lot.

 

[Michael_C]

Ken:

What did they say during the Inquistion when they lit the match?

Hello Ken,

I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I hope you’re not implying that the inquisition gives Islam and anyone else who’s not a Catholic to commit these horrible crimes?

 

[Southernrich]

o_witness:

Although these people claimed they did it for Christianity, they acted on their own.

Yes, and as for Islam, read Ghosty’s fine post. Islam has no authoritative interpreter, so Islamic extremists were acting on their own interpretations.

 

[Southernrich]

MichaelTDoyle:

I have to agree with the other poster. I am obedient to the magisterium, but the Church’s teachings on Islam are disturbing as well as the Pope’s actions.

It seems to me that, regardless how some Moslems act, the Church is saying no more than that they pray to the same One God that we do.

 

[Ken]

kjvail:

Go read some more accurate history on the Inquistion before you illuminate your ignorance for all to see.

Well, the recent report from the Vatican said that the popular notion of the numbers burned in the Inquisition is much higher than accurate historical research demonstrates. OK.

But they did allow that thousands were executed.

So, what did the good folks say as they threw the match?

 

[Ken]

Michael C:

Hello Ken,

I don’t want to put words in your mouth but I hope you’re not implying that the inquisition gives Islam and anyone else who’s not a Catholic to commit these horrible crimes?

Not at all. I am saying that horrible actions by individuals who are members of a religion are not sufficient to indict the religion. This applies to both Catholicism and Islam.

 

[theors]

Many thanks to all who commented on my understanding of Islam. I am a devout Roman Catholic. I do not believe in sola scriptura, and have had many an interesting “discussion” with fundamentalists. Yes I have read the papal encyclicals mentioned.

Many of you who have “defended” Islam have missed the point. It
is a political philosophy disguised as a religion. It was started by
a man and has no connection whatsoever to Judaism or Christianity other than the reference that Jews and Christians are “people of the book” who are infidels (non-believers). Islam can be compared and referenced to Jehova’s Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Swedenborgians, Theosophists,
The Way, etc., etc…

Please give it a DEEP thought. GOD Bless you all.

 

[Matt16_18]

zange

*But also understand the historical development of Islam as a branching out from within the monotheistic tradition of Judeo-Christianity. The God they worship is the same god of Jews and Christians : the God of Abraham. *

I agree. Mohammed was a baptized Catholic. His first wife’s uncle was a bishop, and he baptized Mohammed and his wife into the true faith. Mohammed latter became a “Reformer” that happened to live centuries before Luther and Calvin.

I just think of Muslims as being just another non-Christian Protestant denomination such as the Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Church of God Abrahamic Faith, etc.

Muslims have a higher regard for Mary than any of the Protestant denominations that I just mentioned. Muslims believe that Mary was the holiest woman that ever lived, and they can show great devotion and respect to the Blessed Mom. In some ways, Muslims are more orthodox than Mormons and Unitarians. (Unitarians typically are pro-abortion). Catholics can find common ground with Muslims with their mutual respect for Mary - and I believe that St. Louis de Montfort once prophesied that the Muslims would be converted through praying the rosary.

Joseph Smith and Mohammed both believed that angels gave them special revelations from God, and they both began teaching that polygamy was acceptable, even though Christianity taught otherwise. I see many similarities between the Mormons and the Muslims that I know.

• Let us not forget “our own” sins: how our own faith has been “hijacked” by violent people for bad causes. But most importantly, let us not give in to hatred. Let us join the Holy Father in his efforts at inter-faith understanding. I believe he is guided by the Holy Spirit.*

Amen!

 

[Calvin]

theors:

Many of you who have “defended” Islam have missed the point. It is a political philosophy disguised as a religion. It was started by a man and has no connection whatsoever to Judaism or Christianity other than the reference that Jews and Christians are “people of the book” who are infidels (non-believers). Islam can be compared and referenced to Jehova’s Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Swedenborgians, Theosophists,
The Way, etc., etc…

I happen to be a doctoral student doing research in political philosophy…

Islam is not a political philosophy. There are aspects of Islam that can be applied to politics, but that is true for all religions and non-religious ethical systems.

Now with that said, there is a particular application of Wahabism that can be called “Islamo-fascism.” It is important to note, however, that a vast majority of Muslims do not follow this way of thought. It would be like accusing *all *Catholics, because of Franco or Mussolini, of being “Catholi-fascists.” It is not fair to make such overly broad statements a group.

I would encourage you to take a closer look.

-C

P.S. Muhammed surely had exposure to Christians and Jews. For centuries the Church regarded Islam as a Christian heresy. He probably learned about Christianity from Nestorian monks. Jews were active traders on the Arabia during the time of Muhammed.

 

[Matt16_18]

kjvail

• … the Koran is pretty clear on that sort of thing. “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them” is pretty hard to misinterpet …*

Some of the far right Jewish terrorists living in the occupied West Bank use these scriptures to justify their violence:

So Moses continued to speak these words to all Israel …The LORD your God himself will go over before you; he will destroy these nations before you, so that you shall dispossess them; and Joshua will go over at your head, as the LORD has spoken.
Deut. 31: 1-3

And Joshua mowed down Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. And the LORD said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.” And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The LORD is my banner, saying, “A hand upon the banner of the LORD! The LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.”
Exodus 17:13-16
Are these Jews correctly interpreting the Bible?

 

[Charles]

Sunniva:

When writing in a public forum about other people’s beliefs and religion we should show and reflect how full of love and grace our Catholic Christian faith in. We should do our best in imitating Christ, because many non-Christians see us as reflections of Him.

Very well put. And by the way, I hope your journey home continues apace! Congratulations and let us know if there is anything we can do to help you on the road!

 

[ferdie]

I don’t know about that, the Koran is pretty clear on that sort of thing. “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them” is pretty hard to misinterpet and that’s only one of litterally dozens of similar quotations.

No doubt that there are peaceful Muslims and as there are evil Muslims. We know how extremist Muslims interpreted “Kill the unbelievers where ever you find them”, but has anyone here asked a devout peaceful, educated Muslim how he/she interpreted that? I’m ignorant on this matter.

I

 

[Bernard_Jones]

Has anyone else here read any Bernard Lewis? He’s an English scholar who has spent his life studying Islam. He has written Islam and the West, Islam and several other popular yet scholarly books in recent years. He addresses the concept of jihad in Islam, and looks at the various interpretations of it. He says that the oldest interpretation of jihad is as a physical war against the unbeliever. To fight in defence of a Muslim community is the responsibility of all able bodied believers. To fight to expand the muslim community by conquering other peoples is a highly meritorious thing to do.

Much more recently, some teachers have come to understand that jihad is primarily an internal struggle, much like our own struggle against sin. It is also a struggle to spread Islam through non-violent means.

This second understanding is what muslims talk about when they speak for western audiences, as it is rather more palatable than the older traditions. The Sufi sect of Islam focuses on it exclusively. (They are also considered suspect and even heretical by many muslims.) Islam, however, was born in blood and fire, and it is hard to interpret the life of Muhammed himself if we do not take the Qu’ran’s statements about fighting unbelievers at something like face value.

That being said, I respect muslims as I respect any devout person, and I think that we must maintain a dialogue with them without compromising our own faith. After all, most of them just want to get on with life, even if their religious tradition makes them more susceptible to manipulation by violent bigots than some other traditions.

Perhaps we can start a new thread about the Buddhist monks in Sri Lanka who have been torching churches because they are frightened by the numbers of Buddhists coming to the Faith and receiving baptism? Just think of it; rampaging mobs of saffron robed monks! I wonder if Hollywood will be game to take that on? It rather breaks the stereotypes…

 

[goingthere]

Yes, I have heard of Bernard Lewis. But have only read one of his books. “What Went wrong?” Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response. I plan on reading more of his books and encourage others to do the same. What a wealth of information.

 

[kjvail]

zange

I agree. Mohammed was a baptized Catholic. His first wife’s uncle was a bishop, and he baptized Mohammed and his wife into the true faith. Mohammed latter became a “Reformer” that happened to live centuries before Luther and Calvin.

Whaaaaa??? Do you have a source on that? Mohammad was a pagan, this is the first time I’ve heard he was a Catholic or that his uncle was a Bishop.

 

[Ghosty]

I think you take the argument too far. To say the book teaches nothing is tantamount to saying that language is meaningless. The words have meaning, commonly agreed to. Kill unbelievers is pretty direct.

Transubtantiation seems to be very clear from the text of the NT, yet how many deny it without the aid of the Magisterium? Nothing is ever self-evident in Scripture, it seems.

 

[Ghosty]

I don’t believe Muhammed was a Catholic, but I know at least part of his family was Christian, either Arian or Nestorian IIRC. He learned Christianity, but a heretical form of it.

 

[Matt16_18]

• Whaaaaa??? Do you have a source on that? Mohammad was a pagan, this is the first time I’ve heard he was a Catholic or that his uncle was a Bishop.*

I believe it was Mohammed’s first wife whose uncle was a bishop.

My source is Rev. Lawrence T. Fares, a Catholic priest that was born in Kobayath, Akkar, North Lebanon. Father Fares was once professor of Oriental Studies in the University of Sydney, Australia, and is an official translator of Arabic. Father Fares gave an amazing talk about Islam at a conference that I once attended (I believe that I bought an audiotape of that talk).

Father Fares said that Mohammed had to flee Arabia before he finally conquered Mecca. Mohammed found refuge among the Christians that were at that time bitterly divided over Christological heresies about the nature of Christ. When Mohammed rose to power, his solution to these Christological disputes was to reinterpret the scriptures concerning the nature of Christ – not too much different than what Charles Taze Russell did for the Jehovah Witnesses. One could argue that Mohammed’s teaching about Jesus is less bizarre than the Jehovah Witness teaching that Jesus is really St Michael the Archangel.

A bit of trivia for you. In the Bible we see that besides being called Yahweh, God is called EL (from whence we get the theophanous names, e.g., angel, Raphael, Michael, Gabriel, El Shaddai, etc.). Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the Aramaic for EL is “Alah” which is related to the Arabic “Allah”.

A previous poster noted that once Islam was considered to be a Christian heresy. Islam and Christianity are more closely linked than many Christians realize.

 

[Franze]

* Whaaaaa??? Do you have a source on that? Mohammad was a pagan, this is the first time I’ve heard he was a Catholic or that his uncle was a Bishop.*

I believe it was Mohammed’s first wife whose uncle was a bishop.

My source is Rev. Lawrence T. Fares, a Catholic priest that was born in Kobayath, Akkar, North Lebanon. Father Fares was once professor of Oriental Studies in the University of Sydney, Australia, and is an official translator of Arabic. Father Fares gave an amazing talk about Islam at a conference that I once attended (I believe that I bought an audiotape of that talk).

Father Fares said that Mohammed had to flee Arabia before he finally conquered Mecca. Mohammed found refuge among the Christians that were at that time bitterly divided over Christological heresies about the nature of Christ. When Mohammed rose to power, his solution to these Christological disputes was to reinterpret the scriptures concerning the nature of Christ – not too much different than what Charles Taze Russell did for the Jehovah Witnesses. One could argue that Mohammed’s teaching about Jesus is less bizarre than the Jehovah Witness teaching that Jesus is really St Michael the Archangel.

A bit of trivia for you. In the Bible we see that besides being called Yahweh, God is called EL (from whence we get the theophanous names, e.g., angel, Raphael, Michael, Gabriel, El Shaddai, etc.). Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the Aramaic for EL is “Alah” which is related to the Arabic “Allah”.

A previous poster noted that once Islam was considered to be a Christian heresy. Islam and Christianity are more closely linked than many Christians realize.

It´s a curious interpretation, but well I have to learn a lot.

 

[Jennie66]

I have a serious problem with how Muslims treat females in general. I used to live in Western Europe, where the Muslim population is growing by leaps and bounds. I personally witnessed, in public, some of the most disrespectful treatment of women I have ever seen. Any Muslim country you want to look at, poor treatment of women and girls is a hallmark: not allowed to be educated, to drive, even in some instances to receive needed medical care. I remember news features in Germany (where I lived) of young girls who were murdered by their fathers or other male relatives who believed these girls were becoming “too Westernized”. I find this dispicable. You cannot reconcile this treatment of women and girls to a religion of peace. Sorry.