ISLAM

[Southernrich]

Calvin:

Bottom line: Muslims terrorist use Islam as the basis of their actions. McVeigh did what he did despite Christian teachings. The basis of his actions was some kind of anti-Government, Waco, conspiracy theory not religion.

I stand corrected, but Christians have used Christianity as the basis of their wrong actions - the slaughter of native tribes in New England in the 18th century, done in the name of the white man’s God. There’s also John Brown, the Abolitionist. Good end, evil means colored by Holy Scripture.

Everyone can twist his particular scriptures to his own ends.

 

[Michael_C]

Southernrich:

I stand corrected, but Christians have used Christianity as the basis of their wrong actions - the slaughter of native tribes in New England in the 18th century, done in the name of the white man’s God. There’s also John Brown, the Abolitionist. Good end, evil means colored by Holy Scripture.

Everyone can twist his particular scriptures to his own ends.

Hi SouthernRich,

You make good points but I’m not sure about the John Brown comparison. I’m not an expert but wasn’t the pro-slave movement using violence to influence poeple and John Brown was only fighting back for what he believes. It may be a stretch either way…

 

[kjvail]

Southernrich:

True. Many Fundamentalists hold pretty much the same view about the OT and the NT. There are some, usually referred to as KJV-Onlyists, who believe that that particular translation itself is inspired. Catholicism, however, believes that the Bible is absolutely inerrant as to faith and morals, but not about everything.

Good, now were getting somewhere.
So the problem becomes when the ‘perfect’ Koran says “kill the unbelievers wherever you find them” that is what it means. This is not an ‘interpetation’, that’s what it says in plain Arabic so to speak.

If the Koran was written by Allah and is perfect then it is what Allah says.
If the statement “kill the unbelievers wherever you find” them is evil, as I believe is obvious, and that is what *Allah *says then Allah is evil.
If the God of Christianity is *not *evil but is in fact the essence of goodness - Allah and God cannot be the same thing.
Follow?

 

[Ghosty]

Muslims believe that the Koran is inerrant, just as Catholics believe Scripture is inerrant. The difference, as has been stated many times, is that we have a Pope and Magisterium, whereas Islam does not. There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations because they lack a Magisterium and interpret on their own, and Islam has the same fundamental problem. The Koran, like the Bible, can not speak up and say “No, I didn’t mean it like that,” to those who twist its meaning. In fact, we don’t even really KNOW the meaning of the Koran for just that reason. The Koran doesn’t TEACH anything, because it’s just a book that sits there waiting to be read; Muslims teach themselves and other Muslims what they as individuals have developed from reading the Koran. The Koran, like the Bible, can no more teach than it can plow a field.

It often seems that the Koran has a tendency to encourage what we consider negative things in people at a higher rate than the Bible, but it is very hard for us to lay this at the feet of a book with no spokesman. The Koran can not build a bomb or fly a plane, period. Something else must be at work in those situations.

We must ask ourselves what it is in the cultures that produce terrorists causes them to go in that direction. Obviously the Koran alone can’t be blamed, because most people who read, study, and believe it are married to one person, lovingly kiss their children before bed time, and work and pray to God daily for peace. The Koran doesn’t make them do that anymore than it makes people become terrorists. People (and perhaps evil spirits) are at work in twisting the minds of others, but the Koran is merely a tool, perhaps a convenient one, and nothing else.

 

[Calvin]

Southernrich:

I stand corrected, but Christians have used Christianity as the basis of their wrong actions - the slaughter of native tribes in New England in the 18th century, done in the name of the white man’s God. There’s also John Brown, the Abolitionist. Good end, evil means colored by Holy Scripture.

Everyone can twist his particular scriptures to his own ends.

This is true there is evil that has been done in the name of Christ. (Although McVeigh was not one of those instances!) It doesn’t do us any good to ignore it and I think the current Pope has made a wonderful witness by formally apologizing for some of the bad things that the Catholic Church has done in the name of Christ.

It is too bad there is no one of his stature and position to speak for Protestantism or Sunni Islam.

-C

 

[Ghosty]

If the Koran was written by Allah and is perfect then it is what Allah says.
If the statement “kill the unbelievers wherever you find” them is evil, as I believe is obvious, and that is what *Allah *says then Allah is evil.

I have to ask, are you a Catholic or a Sola Scriptura fundamentalist? That would greatly affect my approach to your statement.

Since when does ANY Scripture speak without an interpreter? If you are a Catholic then you wouldn’t read the Bible, the book you believe to be directly inspired by God, without an outside interpreter, yet you hold the Koran to a looser standard? If Catholics can’t accept the Bible at face value, and we absolutely shouldn’t, then why should we ever accept a work we consider to be unInspired as such? There is a lot of irony in this situation, IMO.

If, however, you are a fundamentalist, then I would ask essentially the same question: why are you accepting something besides the Bible at face value?

Both Catholics and fundamentalists believe that the Koran is not Scripture, so why should it be treated as such? Even Muslims believe in having interpreters for the Koran, they just don’t have strict rules as to who should be established as that interpreter (not unlike most forms of Protestantism with their preachers and pastors).

 

[Southernrich]

kjvail:

Allah and God cannot be the same thing.
Follow?

Hey, you believe what you want. The Fundies believe the same. As for me, I’ll stick to what the Catholic Church says, not to some arguments by laymen.

 

[kjvail]

I have to ask, are you a Catholic or a Sola Scriptura fundamentalist? That would greatly affect my approach to your statement.

Catholic and trying to reconcile what I know about Islam with the statement in Catechism that “we worship the same God” . Not having much luck, I need to refer to the encyclicals referenced earlier

Since when does ANY Scripture speak without an interpreter? If you are a Catholic then you wouldn’t read the Bible, the book you believe to be directly inspired by God, without an outside interpreter, yet you hold the Koran to a looser standard? If Catholics can’t accept the Bible at face value, and we absolutely shouldn’t, then why should we ever accept a work we consider to be unInspired as such? There is a lot of irony in this situation, IMO.
Even Muslims believe in having interpreters for the Koran, they just don’t have strict rules as to who should be established as that interpreter (not unlike most forms of Protestantism with their preachers and pastors).

Ok, I get that but it doesn’t make the situation any better since a quick look at the MEMRI website (Middle East Media Research Institute - www.memri.org) will tell you what the interpeters of the Koran are saying in their own words in their own media. I’ll forewarn you it ain’t peace and love.
Think of it if Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or some other nationally recognized minister went on TV tonight and said “We have to kill all the Jews, they are dogs and pigs” or “Build a bomb tonight and strap it on your son and tomorrow send your son out to kill Jews - God will be pleased”.
These types of statements are made every Friday on Islamic television - so if we should not look at what the Koran says, but rather what the teachers of Islam say about the Koran I fear the situation is even worse.

 

[kjvail]

Southernrich:

Hey, you believe what you want. The Fundies believe the same. As for me, I’ll stick to what the Catholic Church says, not to some arguments by laymen.

Ok, so were back to “because I said so” - so much for progress.

 

[Southernrich]

kjvail:

Ok, so were back to “because I said so” - so much for progress.

Well, excuuuse me, but when the Church says “because I said so,” we do well to obey. We, at least most of us here, aren’t Protestants who are free to disagree with one another about religious matters. You’ll have to do more reading to see why the Church said so.

 

[Southernrich]

kjvail:

what I know about Islam with the statement in Catechism that “we worship the same God”

Are you suggesting that you know more than those two Popes and the writers of the Catechism? What size hat do you wear?

 

[Ghosty]

Ok, now I feel I can properly approach your statements, thank you for responding so quickly.

Catholic and trying to reconcile what I know about Islam with the statement in Catechism that “we worship the same God” . Not having much luck, I need to refer to the encyclicals referenced earlier

What you know or what you believe? In matters of faith, only God truly knows, and humans know only what God reveals to us. As a Catholic you believe that God has appointed the Church as the carrier of the Word on Earth, and that should be enough to show you that your “knowledge” on the subject of Islam is flawed if it contridicts the teaching of the Church (and therefore God’s Word). It seems that you have a very strong attachment to your beliefs, and that’s very understandable, but I would also encourage you to have the depth of faith to know that your beliefs are merely human beliefs, and not the Word of God.

With that said, you are absolutely correct that interpreters of the Koran say these things, and many of them even say that there is no other interpretation. As a Catholic, however, I have ask if you believe that they have *any *authority to speak for God? Of course, as a Catholic, you would say that only God can speak for God, and therefore only those that God says are in agreement with God can be relied upon. Therefore, these “interpreters” of the Koran have no divine authority to interpret the Koran even if the Koran is the Word of God, because we know as Catholics that God gave that authority to the Church. If the Koran is indeed merely the work of a human (and I believe it is definately not Scripture), then they have even less authority, because they are human appointed humans speaking with false authority on a human text. There is no divinity to be found there, only an interesting book and a bunch of humans arguing about their points of view on it.

All of this is to say that Islam is definately flawed, but not because it teaches hate. Rather, it doesn’t teach anything because there is no guideline for what one is supposed to learn from reading the Koran. We can not say what the Koran is intended to teach because God did not tell us (if God even authored it, which I don’t believe It did). Therefore we can not say what Islam teaches because Islam as a single belief simply doesn’t exist; God has given it no singular method of preservation and cohesion throughout the ages. Since Islam is a religion of individual interpretation, we are forced to take individual Muslims alone rather than corporately as a religion, just as with Protestantism. Insofar as a Muslim insists that they worship the God of Abraham, the same God we worship, we must accept them as brothers and sisters in faith, and do our best to correct them in errors of action and interpretation, hopefully bringing them fully into the Church that their God founded.

 

[Southernrich]

Ghosty:

Insofar as a Muslim insists that they worship the God of Abraham, the same God we worship, we must accept them as brothers and sisters in faith, and do our best to correct them in errors of action and interpretation, hopefully bringing them fully into the Church that their God founded.

Very, very well put!

 

[kjvail]

Ghosty,

Very nice rebuttal you have given me alot to think about.

Rich,
I have words for you but I’d probably be banned for using them, consider yourself ignored.

 

[Ken]

kjvail:

Well I read what is in Vatican II and I have to admit I have a problem with the idea that the god of the Koran who justifed Mohammad’s life of rape, murder, incest, pedophilia and bandrity is the same God I worship.

That is certainly not the understanding of the Church historically. I did find some articles that do seem to get it, much as I hate to admit it - from an SSPX site, the Angelus. I’m sorry guys but these folks understand what apparently the mainline Church refuses to see.

sspx.ca/Angelus/2001_October/Islam.htm

Anyone worship the God featured in the Old Testament? He had quite a track record of death.

 

[Ken]

Michael C:

LOL!! Sorry Zange. I meant the tone of the islamic world did seem to change with the beheading in Suadi. that was not meant to you at all.
I believe at heart we’re all on this planet together and statements like “God is great” while cutting off someones head should be offensive to anyone and everyone. I enjoy your comments and insight.

God bless you.

What did they say during the Inquistion when they lit the match?

 

[o_witness]

I am addressing an earlier statement

Southernrich:

I stand corrected, but Christians have used Christianity as the basis of their wrong actions - the slaughter of native tribes in New England in the 18th century, done in the name of the white man’s God. There’s also John Brown, the Abolitionist. Good end, evil means colored by Holy Scripture.

There have been many people who confuse this. I am no expert on Muslim but…

POINT 1. Seems that the Koran suggests to kill. See earlier posts.
POINT 2. Muslim extremist use that to justify their actions.

Christianity has had some history of torturing/conquering groups of people who opposed the religion. Although these people claimed they did it for Christianity, they acted on their own. Christ nor the NT promoted murder or torture to convert people. In fact Jesus laid down his life as did the apostles and early church fathers. We may hear that the OT also promoted killing but that is not the way of Jesus or the NT.

 

[Sunniva]

Statements like: **There is no such thing as a good or sympathetic or cooperative Muslim, **can be very hurtful when being read by a Muslim. I had written a long post (to long) and lost it all.

I was a practicing Muslim for many years. I was baptised Lutheran, but never raised in any religion. I converted in my teens. (long story to, I will maybe share that story later).

My way to Rome (haven’t yet arrived , but I’m getting there) have been a long road. An invitation to participate in a Midnight Mass in 2002 made me want to look into how Mass was celebrated. I didn’t want to make a fool of myself at Mass . I had and still have highspeed Internet access and used the Net as a source for information. I was lucky (actually I’m convinced that the Holy Spirit was guiding me) to find good Catholic sites. I found lots of information regarding the celebration of the Mass and lots of general info about the Catholic Christian faith.

My wrong beliefs and misconceptions about Catholicism melted away and my soul was laid open for our Saviour, Jesus Christ. Godwilling, I will this summer be conditionally baptised, confirmed and receive my first Holy Communion.

When writing in a public forum about other people’s beliefs and religion we should show and reflect how full of love and grace our Catholic Christian faith in. We should do our best in imitating Christ, because many non-Christians see us as reflections of Him.

 

[kjvail]

Ken:

What did they say during the Inquistion when they lit the match?

Go read some more accurate history on the Inquistion before you illuminate your ignorance for all to see.

 

[Calvin]

kjvail:

Go read some more accurate history on the Inquistion before you illuminate your ignorance for all to see.

It is true that some accounts of the Inquisition are exaggerated, but what did the Pope recently apologize for if nothing happened? What Ken wrote is not contradicted by history.

Just last week the Vatican released a new report on the Inquisition that admitted the following:

“The largest spurt in executions by the Roman Inquisition occurred shortly after the Council of Trent, during the pontificate of an ex-Inquisitor General. Because of the Roman Inquisition, Pius V has more legal murders staining his record than any other 16th century pope, including Paul IV and Sixtus V. Nevertheless, he has become the only one of this group to be canonized, while the other two remain bywords for bigoted ferocity” (p. 545)

“In 1559, on express desire of Paul IV, in a systematic and detailed way, all Christians who went to confess their sins were first interrogated about their criminal offences, or their knowledge of crimes of heresy or reading of prohibited books; and if something emerged, they were sent to the tribunal of the inquisition to make a formal denouncement … if the violence of torture and the gallows broke the body, the moral violence exercised by the subordination of confession to the inquisition broke consciences … the profound effects of this choice still need to be evaluated in full” (p. 761).

“… the wisest and saintliest among the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, through their personal authority, gave credence to this ‘communal doctrine’ [of torture and death] to the point of seeming to imbue it with a quasi-Magisterial authority…” (p. 767).

There are some exaggerated histories but there is no accurate history which states the Church did no wrong during the Inquisition.

I’m sorry to break it to you: some burnings did occur.

From Catholic Answers:* A few Catholic writers, particularly those less interested in digging for truth than in diffusing a criticism of the Church, have glossed over incontrovertible facts and tried to whitewash the Inquisition. This is as much a disservice to the truth as an exaggeration of the Inquisition’s bad points. *

-C