Islamaphobia?

[WonderAndAwe]

The Cathechism also says there’s a special place in God’s Plan of Salvation for Muslims

This is what he said. Salvation means to be saved. He is saying God has a plan for Muslims to be saved, meaning going to heaven

He didn’t quote catechism at all, he said that in the catechism it says this but it doesn’t.

I quoted infallible documents that clearly state that there is no salvation for non-Catholics. Do you view this as false?

Paraphrased. Sue me.

841 The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

 

[Jon_S_1]

And this is justified by what is seen in the world.

The Koran does advocate evangelization through violence and there are many accounts of Muslims doing violent actions justified by their scripture.

BUT that throws every Muslim who isn’t violent, doesn’t actively want to kill infidels and is just as disgusted and terrified by radical Islam. Remember when God told Abraham that He will destroy Sodom and Abraham spoke of the innocents from 50 and down to even just 10 that it would be unjust to kill them along with the wicked? Why must the innocent and just be thrown under the bus along with the truly wicked?

This is sort of like saying, the Catholic Church is full of people that support same sex marriage and contraception so why lump all those Catholics in with the “catholic extremists” who say those things are wrong.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

"The Cathechism also says there’s a special place in God’s Plan of Salvation for Muslims"

This is what he said. Salvation means to be saved. He is saying God has a plan for Muslims to be saved, meaning going to heaven

He didn’t quote catechism at all, he said that in the catechism it says this but it doesn’t.

His statement- “The Cathechism also says there’s a special place in God’s Plan of Salvation for Muslims, that they too claim to worship the God of Abraham as we do and that God loves them with His Unconditional Everlasting Love as their Creator.”

The CCC- “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Oh yeah, they are so completely different.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What percentage of Muslims in the world do you think are Islamic extremists?

Please view these vast statistics.

wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Shariah

pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/statistics-the-muslim-worlds-problem-over-70-of-muslims-support-sharia-law-90-support-execution-of-apostates-2/

washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

Between 60 and 70 percent of Muslims in the world support Sharia Law and desire it to be the law of the land.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Muslims do not go to heaven unless they repent. No one, even if they shed blood in the name of Christ, goes to heaven unless they are baptized into the Catholic Church. This is infallible. You can’t disobey it. It is both in Scriputee and Tradition.

Actually, the Catholic Church holds most Christian denominations baptisms valid. You don’t HAVE to even be baptized by the Catholic Church to become Catholic.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

This is sort of like saying, the Catholic Church is full of people that support same sex marriage and contraception so why lump all those Catholics in with the “catholic extremists” who say those things are wrong.

So are you claiming that Islamic extremists are the true Muslims and the non-extremists Muslims are just “Cafeteria Muslims”?

 

[theoda]

Paraphrased. Sue me.

841 The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

Well then it seems like we have a contradiction of infallible documents(If the catechism is infallible, which I am 95% sure it is). However, the Catholic Church has always taught for 2,000 years that there is no salvation outside the church. Then it seems to have changed in the last 20 years. Which one is more credible?

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Notice the time span of these quotes.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

This is sort of like saying, the Catholic Church is full of people that support same sex marriage and contraception so why lump all those Catholics in with the “catholic extremists” who say those things are wrong.

I see. Quite the quandary indeed then.

But how then do we publicly acknowledge, denounce, and stand strong against the Evils of Islam and its advance on the world while not succumbing to hatred and bigotry toward all Muslims, wicked and just alike? How do we moderate justified caution and not let it become witch-hunt paranoia?

 

[theoda]

Actually, the Catholic Church holds most Christian denominations baptisms valid. You don’t HAVE to even be baptized by the Catholic Church to become Catholic.

Yes, you can be validly baptized as a Protestant. However, you immediately fall in a state of mortal sin if you believe in the heretical Protestant beliefs, therefore, you go to hell.

Baptism doesn’t mean automatic salvation. Catholics believe this, Protestants don’t.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Please view these vast statistics.

wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Shariah

pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/statistics-the-muslim-worlds-problem-over-70-of-muslims-support-sharia-law-90-support-execution-of-apostates-2/

washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

Between 60 and 70 percent of Muslims in the world support Sharia Law and desire it to be the law of the land.

So supporting Sharia Law makes a Muslim an Islamic extremist? Even those who think that Sharia should just apply to Muslims?

 

[Jon_S_1]

So are you claiming that Islamic extremists are the true Muslims and the non-extremists Muslims are just “Cafeteria Muslims”?

Yes, but you must understand that there is a difference between terrorists and those who are serious traditional, Sharia advocating Muslims. M

The media wants you to think that it’s either terrorists (small minority) or westernized peace seekers thrilled with democracy (also small minority).

The truth is the vast majority that are in between.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

So given the conclusion in your second part of the above you should be able to provide an answer to the question of what percentage of Muslims do you think are Islamic extremists. What would that percentage be?

Again, all I can say with certainty is that Islamic extremism is far and away the most widely taught interpretation of Islam. Personally, I like to believe that most people who identify as Muslim (and who are not complete sociopaths) privately reject this interpretation in favor of something more closely resembling the natural law that informs human conscience, but that they choose not to publicly acknowledge this, as it would be a death sentence. There is, of course, no data that would support my preferred version of reality.

In other words, I hope most Muslims are good, but I know most Islam is evil.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Yes, you can be validly baptized as a Protestant. However, you immediately fall in a state of mortal sin if you believe in the heretical Protestant beliefs, therefore, you go to hell.

Baptism doesn’t mean automatic salvation. Catholics believe this, Protestants don’t.

I think you need to read up on mortal sin. Also, this whole deciding who goes to hell and who doesn’t, is kinda above by our pay grade.

 

[WonderAndAwe]

Well then it seems like we have a contradiction of infallible documents(If the catechism is infallible, which I am 95% sure it is). However, the Catholic Church has always taught for 2,000 years that there is no salvation outside the church. Then it seems to have changed in the last 20 years. Which one is more credible?

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Notice the time span of these quotes.

So then what does CCC 841 mean? And while slightly unrelated, is there no way for the thousands of souls that died before Christ was born or before missionaries got to them to achieve Heaven if they through no fault of their own we’re able to become Catholic? I though we had an answer for that which also didn’t contradict what you typed.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I see. Quite the quandary indeed then.

But how then do we publicly acknowledge, denounce, and stand strong against the Evils of Islam and its advance on the world while not succumbing to hatred and bigotry toward all Muslims, wicked and just alike? How do we moderate justified caution and not let it become witch-hunt paranoia?

By standing against the persecution of people by Those practicing Islam. This includes standing against the human rights violations of many Muslim nations.

We also need to be educated on this issue, ask plain questions and call a spade a spade.

Watch this video that came out a few days ago.

cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/76FLYWu_uWAFzR3uVOm4QsLxlXuqy5_W/preview-recruiting-for-isis/?nm

 

[theoda]

His statement- “The Cathechism also says there’s a special place in God’s Plan of Salvation for Muslims, that they too claim to worship the God of Abraham as we do and that God loves them with His Unconditional Everlasting Love as their Creator.”

The CCC- “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Oh yeah, they are so completely different.

Ok. This could be interpreted that God has a plan of salvation for Muslims. His plan for their slavation is their conversion.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Do you see the apparent contradiction in these two views? However, I think the one in CCC can be interpreted so that it is technically in line with past Church teaching.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So then what does CCC 841 mean? And while slightly unrelated, is there no way for the thousands of souls that died before Christ was born or before missionaries got to them to achieve Heaven if they through no fault of their own we’re able to become Catholic? I though we had an answer for that which also didn’t contradict what you typed.

This is for a different thread I’d really suggest moving this conversation elsewhere.

I will just say, the only REVEALED truth regarding salvation is via baptism and the catholic Church. That’s it. That is where assurance lies. That is why we must evangelize.

We have a hope that others could be saved based on what we know of Gods justice. It is simply a hope and speculation though.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

So given the conclusion in your second part of the above you should be able to provide an answer to the question of what percentage of Muslims do you think are Islamic extremists. What would that percentage be?

With about 1.6 billion followers or 23% of earth’s population, Islam is the second-largest religion and the fastest-growing religion in the world.

So let’s just say that only 10% of Muslims are Islamic extremists.

THAT IS A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTREMISTS.

And they are recruiting right here in America…

 

[theoda]

So then what does CCC 841 mean? And while slightly unrelated, is there no way for the thousands of souls that died before Christ was born or before missionaries got to them to achieve Heaven if they through no fault of their own we’re able to become Catholic? I though we had an answer for that which also didn’t contradict what you typed.

An explanation for that would take a while. Basically,God, in his infinite mercy, would instruct that person who lived a good life, the Catholic faith most likely through a guardian angel

The sounds before Christ is a completely different story and is irrelevant to this age since we are living in the new covenant.

We do have an answer, all my documents that are cited are meant to be after BC.
I think they would have to be part of the Jewish faith, but I’m not sure.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I see. Quite the quandary indeed then.

But how then do we publicly acknowledge, denounce, and stand strong against the Evils of Islam and its advance on the world while not succumbing to hatred and bigotry toward all Muslims, wicked and just alike? How do we moderate justified caution and not let it become witch-hunt paranoia?

By treating Muslims no differently than we treat everyone else (support/praise their moral acts, criticize/denounce their immoral acts) and by treating Islam as we treat the other non-Jewish non-Christian faiths (highlight and support what is true within their teachings, criticize and denounce what is untrue in their teachings).