Islamic claim: Jesus never claimed to be Son of God & Didn't really die on the cross.???? Prove it!

[planten]

I imitated Mohammad while posting my self-generated response and attributing it to God!

My response has no meaning and validity for YOU in the same way as your Scripture has no meaning and validity for ME.

Further, I refute your claim that my statements and I can be judged by Islamic values and notions.

** But you should show anything good and natural from your religious book. You should not make your own scripture. Like bible is being edited every day in the name of improvements**.

 

[planten]

Paul did not discard the law of Christ, which fulfilled the law of Mosses. Christians have law, whether they admit it or not. The ones who won’t admit it are fooling themselves.

Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law. (Rom 13:8-10)

If you want to read the law of Christ click
Matthew 5
Matthew 6
Matthew 7

As far as Catholic law, someone has lied to you. Catholics are accussed of having to much law. (by some protestants) There is so much law you would not have the stomach to read it all. click here

I hope that helps. Do you have any links to Muslim law? Thank you.

Peace,

Ryan

**
There is plenty of love making in the christian countries. I believe paul (saul) taught that the law was a curse. See below:

Galatians ch.3:
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”**

You see that the law is being called a curse. And see " Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." There so much curse in christianity. Why?? Love and Curse cannot go together.

There was plenty of warning. But now, nobody cares. Christians are ready to call Jesus a cursed person. Muslims do not go near such bad ideas.

 

[planten]

Of course we have a Law but methink when Muslims talk about the law, they mean things like : eat this and not that, drink this and not that, pray like this and kneel like that and wash in this manner?

**No. Sorry for you. The Muslim law teaches us the complete way of life including the way to pray. That method of praying to God is not a minor matter. You seem not to give any importance to the prayers.

Our law (and the law given for you to Moses a.s.) gives complete guidance as how to live a good life. That includes hygene,cleanliness, eating good things, marriage, divorce. dealings, business, contracts. Everything is told in the law. You do not know what you are missing.

The law of Moses was not any useless thing. And you cannot be smarter than Moses by inventing your own methods. Even Jesus did not tell you to discard the law. He wanted every one to fulfil the law and he himself acted exactly according to the law of Moses a.s.

He was a prophet (and according to you, a god too). He found it necessary to abide by the law. But you were smarter. You got rid of that good law, and called it a curse. You do not know what sin you have committed. Not only going against the law given for the children of Israel but also diverging your ways and parting with Jesus too.**

 

[ryanoneil]

**
There is plenty of love making in the christian countries. I believe paul (saul) taught that the law was a curse. See below:

Galatians ch.3:
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”**

You see that the law is being called a curse. And see " Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." There so much curse in christianity. Why?? Love and Curse cannot go together.

There was plenty of warning. But now, nobody cares. Christians are ready to call Jesus a cursed person. Muslims do not go near such bad ideas.

the Mosaic law gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. The law was only good for showing us our sinfulness, but not teaching us how to live. Under the Mosiac legal system God was obligated to give payment for works of the law. If someone sinned the payment was eternal death. Unfortunately, no one was able to do all the things written in the book of the law so they were cursed. In the Old Covenant they used animal sacrifice to atone for sin, but it was a partial solution.

Are Muslims free to break God’s laws or are they cursed if they break them? (please answer)

Jesus Christ made a new and everlasting covenant. He died on the cross and took the curse on himself so that we might be freed from the curse of the law and be forgiven. When He rose from the dead the curse He took on Himself was broken. Do you understand? He took our curse but it was no permanent.

Jesus told us that it is impossible to obligate God for payment, and sinful to think we can. We cannot do “works of the law” to obligate God. We are not in an employer/employee relationship with God. He owes us nothing. Instead, Jesus told us we are in a Father/child covenant relationship with Him, and He will reward us for being faithful.

Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay us for our works; otherwise, we are in a system of law, not a system of grace. The law of Christ is the system of grace. It is the New Covenant that shows us how we must live. Did you read Matthew 5, 6, and 7?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi

You are such a nice person; I don’t want that you should die; rather you should live and enjoy your life with your friends and family.

JesusYeshuaIssa said that he would show no sign to the adulterous Jews accept the Sign of Jonah. Kindly read the real story of Jonah in the OTBible to refresh your memory about him.

1. Jonah went in the belly of the fish alive.
2. Jonah was alive in the belly of the fish; that is why he prayed there and his prayer was heard by GodAllahYHWH.
3. Jonah came out of the fish alive; Jonah did not die for even a moment during this entire episode.
4. Jonah went to the city he was appointed as a MessengerProphet of GodAllahYHWH.
5. Jonah was accepted by the people he was sent.

JesusYeshuaIssa, we believe, showed this last sign - his greatest and wonderful sign; then he should have never died on the Cross though he was nailed down and iflicted with injuries on the cross, yet he was delivered near-dead but very much alive. He was treated in the tomb where he was laid and when he gained consciousness and recovered from the injuries he came out and was seen by so many.

To prove and believe that JesusYeshuaIssa was a truthful person and not a fake, as Jews held, we cannot deny that he never died a cursed death on the Cross.

Thanks

** I agree with paarsurrey that Jesus never died any type of death on the cross. Before going into the belly of the earth (tomb), Jesus should have been alive as was the Prophet Jonas alive before going into the belly of the fish.

**

Hi paarsurrey, planten,

I think it’s great that you believe that Jesus fulfilled prophecy. It’s a great start. I wish more muslims were like you.

 

[Angelos]

** But you should show anything good and natural from your religious book. You should not make your own scripture. Like bible is being edited every day in the name of improvements**.

YOU did not ask me to show anything good or natural from my scripture! Tomshaikh simply quoted an Islamic challenge in the Koran, which had been devised by Mohammad’s scribes in the Mecca period and which was distorted (abrogated) in the Medina period through new verses declaring universal jihad on all unbelievers!

Besides, I simply imitated the authors of the Koran, who wrote a book with their hands and attributed it to Allah, who revealed nothing to Mohammad. My response to Tomshaikh’s contained comparison and contrast between Jesus and Mohammad, the idea of which was taken from the prologue to John’s Gospel.

The Koran is re-written everyday by Islamic scholars that desperately need to fabricate scientific miracles in their scripture.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3684219:

What do you say about the angels?? Any angel?/ Are they material bodies according to the church teachings, or they are spiritual beings. Please reply.

Planten, before i reply, why don’t you?

 

[tomshaikh]

YOU did not ask me to show anything good or natural from my scripture! Tomshaikh simply quoted an Islamic challenge in the Koran, which had been devised by Mohammad’s scribes in the Mecca period and which was distorted (abrogated) in the Medina period through new verses declaring universal jihad on all unbelievers!

Besides, I simply imitated the authors of the Koran, who wrote a book with their hands and attributed it to Allah, who revealed nothing to Mohammad. My response to Tomshaikh’s contained comparison and contrast between Jesus and Mohammad, the idea of which was taken from the prologue to John’s Gospel.

The Koran is re-written everyday by Islamic scholars that desperately need to fabricate scientific miracles in their scripture.

Holdon man I am not making difference between Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh. Infact Allah told us not to differentiates between prophets. Get this on your mind no Muslim will do that if he knew what Allah said.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

For the Mormon, and anyone else who wants some proof that Jesus is God:

John 20:28Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

 

[Angelos]

**
There is plenty of love making in the christian countries. I believe paul (saul) taught that the law was a curse. See below:

Galatians ch.3:
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”**

You see that the law is being called a curse. And see " Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." There so much curse in christianity. Why?? Love and Curse cannot go together.

There was plenty of warning. But now, nobody cares. Christians are ready to call Jesus a cursed person. Muslims do not go near such bad ideas.

Paul defines only the Mosaic Law as a curse because the Law taught the notion of sin and regulated the punishment of sinners.

Your presumption that “there is so much curse in Christianity” is fallacious because the statement defining punished criminals as cursed people was taken by Paul from the Old Testament. If you read the epistle to Galatians honestly and without Islamic hatred towards Paul, you will see that Paul deliberately associates Jesus’ crucifixion with the curse of the Law so as to highlight “Jesus the redeemer”.

More, the Koran imposes the same curse on Jesus when it contends that Jesus appeared to have been hung on the tree. Thus, Jews are convinced by Allah in the Koran that Jesus was hung on the tree and was therefore a cursed man!

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Paul defines only the Mosaic Law as a curse because the Law taught the notion of sin and regulated the punishment of sinners.

The Law itself was not a curse. It cannot be since the Law itself was from God. He said those who observe the law are under a curse, namely because 1) it does not sanctify 2) it cannot remove Original Sin and 3) to reject the new Law , which is the fulfillment of the old Law, is to reject Christ Himself.

 

[Angelos]

Holdon man I am not making difference between Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh. Infact Allah told us not to differentiates between prophets. Get this on your mind no Muslim will do that if he knew what Allah said.

Does this statement of yours mean that you Muslims believe Jesus’ Gospel was a universal message since you call the Koran a revelation for the universe?

Does it also mean that you Muslims believe in the authenticity of the Gospel and refute the allegations of biblical corruption since you believe that Mohammad’s revelation was preserved from corruption by Allah?

If your answer to these two questions is simply NO, I shall never be convinced that Allah in your Koran commands Muslims NOT to distinguish Jesus from Mohammad.

 

[Angelos]

The Law itself was not a curse. It cannot be since the Law itself was from God. He said those who observe the law are under a curse, namely because 1) it does not sanctify 2) it cannot remove Original Sin and 3) to reject the new Law , which is the fulfillment of the old Law, is to reject Christ Himself.

I agree, but this does not change the fact that the observation of the Law would impose a curse on its followers. The Law was meant to be a burden on Israel since it kept reminding the Israelites of their sinful nature with no absolute redemption.

 

[planten]

YOU did not ask me to show anything good or natural from my scripture! Tomshaikh simply quoted an Islamic challenge in the Koran, which had been devised by Mohammad’s scribes in the Mecca period and which was distorted (abrogated) in the Medina period through new verses declaring universal jihad on all unbelievers!

Besides, I simply imitated the authors of the Koran, who wrote a book with their hands and attributed it to Allah, who revealed nothing to Mohammad. My response to Tomshaikh’s contained comparison and contrast between Jesus and Mohammad, the idea of which was taken from the prologue to John’s Gospel.

The Koran is re-written everyday by Islamic scholars that desperately need to fabricate scientific miracles in their scripture.

** The Quran was revealed to Muhammad. bible was revealed to Jesus. Muhammad got it written down at Once. Jessu never dictated or got the bible written down. Quran claims that it is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. bible does not say anything from where it is.

Now, to the topic, Quran says clearly that Jesus or anybody else was not the son of God. Bible is quiet on this subject. Just because Jesus addressed the One Great God as father does not make him any son of God.

Christians also could not prove that Jesus was the literal son of God. But they made many mistakes (advancements). The church first formulated that jesus was son of God (even though there is no such thing in the bible NT and such a claim is dead against the previous scripture i.e. Torah). It is called blasphemy and the punishment for that is stoning (Not crucifixion).

Church formulated that Jesus was son of God. Then they progressed on that and said that Jesus was the begotten son of God. (Begotten in what way?? We know in Bible OT Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat Jacob…) Was Jesus begotten in the same way?? No. The church says “No.”

Then they progressed further and stepped into the more forbidden area and said that “Jesus is the only begotten son of God”. We see the progress of the christians in that field. And we know as per Quran and Torah that Jesus is not even the son of God. Christians cannot explain how is only Jesus the son of God when there are many others who are symbolically being called the sons of God.

So according to the topic, The Muslims are in a more better position to not believe that Jesus is son of God.**

 

[inJESUS]

** That method of praying to God is not a minor matter. You seem not to give any importance to the prayers.**

if you mean that Jesus taught us we must kneel like that and put our head like that then nop sorry He couldn’t care less about bodily positions.

Our law (and the law given for you to Moses a.s.) gives complete guidance as how to live a good life. That includes hygene,cleanliness, eating good things, marriage, divorce. dealings, business, contracts. Everything is told in the law. You do not know what you are missing.

 

[inJESUS]

** Quran claims that it is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. bible does not say anything from where it is.**

i gave you a thousand quote about God’s Word that stands for ever from both OT and NT. The one who told you that God lies is in fact the father of lies.

Now, to the topic, Quran says clearly that Jesus or anybody else was the son of God. Bible is quiet on this subject. Just because Jesus addressed the One Great God a sfather does not make him any son of God.

 

[Angelos]

** The Quran was revealed to Muhammad. bible was revealed to Jesus. Muhammad got it written down at Once. Jessu never dictated or got the bible written down. Quran claims that it is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. bible does not say anything from where it is.**

**1) Neither the Bible nor the Koran was “revealed” if you designate the revelation as direct dictation from God.

2) The Bible was written by men of faith that were inspired by God to preach His word to mankind. The Koran, on the other hand, was fabricated by Mohammad’s scribes that aimed to distort the Jewish and Chistian Bible.

3) The recurrent statements in the Koran that “It is from the Lord of the universe” will not suffice to make it a book of divine origin. Likewise, your assertion that “the Bible does not say where it is from” (which is NOT true) will not make it a fabricated and unreliable book.**

**
Now, to the topic, Quran says clearly that Jesus or anybody else was not the son of God. Bible is quiet on this subject. Just because Jesus addressed the One Great God as father does not make him any son of God.**

This but shows your ignorance of the subject. You cannot judge the Bible or concoct lies about it by reading only the Koran, which fails to understand what Christians mean when they call Jesus the Son of God. Besides, your argument that “Jesus’ addressing God as His (personal) Father will not make Him the Son” is a logical fallacy.

**
Christians also could not prove that Jesus was the literal son of God. But they made many mistakes (advancements). The church first formulated that jesus was son of God (even though there is no such thing in the bible NT and such a claim is dead against the previous scripture i.e. Torah). It is called blasphemy and the punishment for that is stoning (Not crucifixion).**

1) It is historically untrue that the Church first formulated the doctrine of Jesus’ sonship. That basic tenet of Christianity did NOT come into existence AFTER Jesus, for God Himself declared Jesus His Son even before Jesus’ nativity.

2) The Old Testament was the first scripture to use the title Son of God in a Messianic sense before the New Testament.

3) Jesus called Himself the Son of the living God even before the Sanhedrin when questioned by the high priest. The Jews at Jesus’ time could NOT punish Jesus in accordance with the Mosaic Law (stoning) since they were under the Roman invasion and jurisdiction.

**
Church formulated that Jesus was son of God. Then they progressed on that and said that Jesus was the begotten son of God. (Begotten in what way?? We know in Bible OT Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat Jacob…) Was Jesus begotten in the same way?? No. The church says “No.”

Then they progressed further and stepped into the more forbidden area and said that “Jesus is the only begotten son of God”. We see the progress of the christians in that field. And we know as per Quran and Torah that Jesus is not even the son of God. Christians cannot explain how is only Jesus the son of God when there are many others who are symbolically being called the sons of God.**

You seem to confuse the supposed revelation of the Koran with basic Christian tenets when you claim that faith in Jesus’ divinity was progressive. The Church always used the New Testament as her guide when she had to confront the Arian heresy in the fourth century. The fact that the Church of Christ issued the Nicene Creed in the fourth century does not prove that the Church had construed Jesus’ sonship in a different sense prior to the first ecumenical council.

Interestingly, your post answers your question why Jesus is called the only begotten of the Father (with no biological sense since God is supreme spirit) with the help of your other question “how can Jesus be the Son of God when all Christians are called sons of God.”

**
So according to the topic, The Muslims are in a more better position to not believe that Jesus is son of God.**

This is an invalid argument based on your personal interpretation and misunderstanding of both the Bible and Christian tenets.

The Koran mistakenly presumes that Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of Allah in a physical sense denoting sexuality. This mistake leads the authors of the Koran to another faulty conclusion that Mary is believed by Christians to be the wife of Allah and the second person of the Trinity.

 

[planten]

For the Mormon, and anyone else who wants some proof that Jesus is God:

John 20:28Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

** Which Thomas was that?? Was that the doubting Thomas? And when did he say that word “God”? That would be the testimony of single doubting person. What about the multitude? They were unaware of that idea?**

 

[Angelos]

** Which Thomas was that?? Was that the doubting Thomas? And when did he say that word “God”? That would be the testimony of single doubting person. What about the multitude? They were unaware of that idea?**

If you read that chapter in John, you will - hopefully - understand that Jesus appeared a second time when His disciples had gathered so as to convince Thomas and clear all his doubts about His resurrection. The words uttered by Jesus after Thomas’ exclamation (My Lord and my God) indicate that Thomas was no more a doubtful person, for Jesus defined him as one believing after seeing. Thus, Thomas saw, believed, and gave testimony to Jesus, which are the prevalent notions throughout John’s Gospel.

 

[planten]

Paul defines only the Mosaic Law as a curse because the Law taught the notion of sin and regulated the punishment of sinners.

Your presumption that “there is so much curse in Christianity” is fallacious because the statement defining punished criminals as cursed people was taken by Paul from the Old Testament. If you read the epistle to Galatians honestly and without Islamic hatred towards Paul, you will see that Paul deliberately associates Jesus’ crucifixion with the curse of the Law so as to highlight “Jesus the redeemer”.

Do you mean the Old testament was wrong? Jesus knew all about it, taught it in a better way, upheld the teachings of the OT. He knew that his death on the cross would be a bad (cursed) death. That is why he prayed whole night earnestly in the garden before his arrest to avoid that cup. He did not like that cursed death.

More, the Koran imposes the same curse on Jesus when it contends that Jesus appeared to have been hung on the tree. Thus, Jews are convinced by Allah in the Koran that Jesus was hung on the tree and was therefore a cursed man!