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cestusdei
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Sounds like idolatry to me. Muhammed smashed the idols in the Kaaba and replaced them with himself. You don’t even really need the quran then do you? A bit of a box you are in there.
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cleobanzj
Guest
Mo met Moses? I thought they were hundreds of years apart? How do you know that it was youR allah’s will “from the get go?” Is it in the Quran?
My Lord’s dying for me, a sinner is not sweet. It is bitter, but he DID NOT BARGAIN WITH GOD, and my Lord is the 'ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD"
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LilyM
Guest
‘Father, if it is possible take this cup away from me …’ sounds awfully close to bargaining to me. Not to mention ‘Simon, Satan has desired to have you, to sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith will not fail …’ also sounds like it.
Besides which, we’ve got Lot (or is it Abraham?) bargaining for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah in the OT, and the people of Nineveh averting the wrath of God by prayer and fasting.
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cleobanzj
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LilyM said:
Remember, He said, not MY WILL, BUT YOURS.
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flameburns623
Guest
In point of fact, ultra-orthodox Jews DO believe that the Torah was dictated letter-for-letter, which is what Gematria (also known as the ‘Bible Code’ of Michael Drosner fame) is all about. One ought not to take the word of modern Jewish ‘scholars’ for ANYTHING to do with religion or the Bible–the vast majority of Judaism and Jewish Biblical pseudo-scholarship is riddled with flaming liberalism and has nothing to do with the religion given to Moses and lived by the Jewish people of Biblical times. Practically the only exceptions to this, the ultra-Orthodox and Hasidic sects, are unlikely to publish in English, their preferred lingua franca being Biblical Hebrew or it’s modern equivalent; or in some cases Yiddish.
The Qu’ran itself specifies that one is to do Salat twice per day. A few Islamic sects practice Salat as per the Qu’ran. Most accept the Haith (Islamic tradition) which specifies that the practice should be done five times per day.
Examples can be found in Christendom of much-older men being married to prebuscent girls with the blessing of the Church. Nine seems ridiculously young to me as well, even if we accept the caveat that Muhammed did not consumate the marriage till the girl was 11. But the fact remains this is a cultural difference between our time and earlier times, when children went fairly abruptly from infancy to having to live by adult expectations. I think this issue gets overworked as an example of Muhammed’s carnality and unfitness for Prophethood.
It is rather annoying that I have to make this point for the Muslims. Is there no reasonable member of the Islamic faith willing to post responses like this in a reasonable tone of voice? I realize that Cestusdei is rather needling in the way he asks questions, and he clearly relies heavily on second-hand Internet sources. But therein lies his weakness: lacking any real knowledge of or appreciation of the Islamic faith or practice, he ought to be relatively easy to tie up in knots. I find his claim to being a priest as dubious as some others have said it to be. But that’s really not a critical point–whether Cestusdei is a real priest or some fourteen year-old girl, the questions being asked are fair. They’re not being asked with a sincere intent to understand nor with a real desire to engage in dialogue. But they ARE fair questions.
It’s funny, Cestus, how you and I can agree on the points you try to make so often; and yet I differ with you greatly on the way you choose to make those points.
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inJESUS
Guest
which reply offended you? maybe i’ll try to put it in a better way…but i asked many logical questions to which you did not respond so far.
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inJESUS
Guest
that was my point as well…you find a LOT of repetitive verses but you do not find one verse talking about how to pray…ever read how many threats allah gives to non-muslims but doesnt give the correct way to pray to moslims? that tells a lot about the intentions of the one who wrote it…worse yet, you must pray in arabic …i still fail to see how allah is a universal deity with an arabic quran to alll mankind.
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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Faith101 said:
Faith, this is Moses:
“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring **sin ** upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.” Deuteronomy 24:1-4
and this is Jeremiah:
“God says, ‘If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me,’ declares the LORD. Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them Like an Arab in the desert, And you have polluted a land With your harlotry and with your wickedness.” Jeremiah 3:1-2
and this is mohammad:
Muhammad goes against Moses by allowing divorcees to remarry one another only after they have been married to someone else!
“A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah. So do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (themselves as well as others). So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), he cannot, after that, re- marry her **until after she has married another husband ** and he has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.” S. 2:229-230
Obviously, Faith, mohammad could have never ever neither met nor saw in a vision neither Moses or Jesus or ANY Biblical prophet coz OBVIOUSLY the one who sent mohammad is NOT God.
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Faith101
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I don’t believe that Moses would call a divorced woman “defiled”…so i’m reluctant to believe that that quote is an actual quote from Moses.
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Harlot with many lovers? Just because a woman was divorced and married another man, and then after that marriage ddidnt work out, wanted to return to her husband? It happens all the time, why would it be harlotry and wickedness on the woman’s part?
It makes sense. A man has to know that a woman is not a toy that he can just divorce when he likes. The most hated thing in the eyes of Allah out of all the permissible things is divorce.
If a man divorces his wife in anger…then changes his mind and asks for her back and then does it AGAIN…he should know that the third time will be a final divorce, .and he will not be allowed to re-marry her. As Allah states, these are the limits set by Allah, and the God-fearing people should not cross them.
Allah does not call these women who have married after their divorce, defiled or harlots…the whole concept is that a man has to understand that he can not keep divorcing his wife and bringing her back when he feels like it…he has to keep her in kindness or divorce her in kindness, not in play.
I understand this is your opinion, one that over 1 billion people on this earth disagree with. But it can not be the basis of an argument.
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Faith101
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Didnt Jesus pray to God and ask him to let this cup pass from him? Was that a bargain? No, it was a request. A request that you belive God denied and we believe God accepted.
IT terms of the prayer issue…It was not a bargain, it was a request, one that Allah chose to accept. Mohamed had nothing to give to Allah in return of the acceptance of the request. It was Allah’s will.
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Faith101
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Ofcourse, in the end its God’s will…and no one else’s. This is exactly what happened in the case of the prayers. Mohamed made a request, Allah accepted it. It was not forced on Allah.
There were some requests that Mohamed made, which were denied by Allah…even Abraham made a request that was denied by Allah. Similarly, you and I make requests that are denied…and some that are accepted. None of us, and none of the messengers can dare try to bargain with Allah. They are all His servants.
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Faith101
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hmm…either i’m doing a really bad job explaining…or you arent looking to understand.
Mohamed, who you are saying replaced the idols with himself, would prohibit people from standing up when he walked into a room, for fear that some person later on would attribute any kind of worship to him. When people used to say “if Allah and you will” he would stop them and tell them, if they must use his name, to say instead “if Allah wills, *then * you”. The Quran tells us that Mohamed is just a man, and will die like all other men. As soon as he did die, and the people were in disarray, Abu Bakr, the prophet’s closest friend, stood up and said “for those of you who worship Mohamed, know that he is dead…but for those of you who worship God, know that he is alive and never dies”
To say that Mohamed is worshipped in Islam because we pray the way he showed us to pray (which is the way he was commanded to pray by God) is silly.
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Faith101
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Please re word your logical questions without insult either to Allah or His messenger, and God willing i will attempt to answer them.
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inJESUS
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inJESUS
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quote to me my question and i’ll try to put it in a better way…i just can’t repeat all my posts. What questions do you want t reply to if they were put in a better way?
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inJESUS
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if so, Jesus wouldnt have said many times that he is going to die. And how did Allah accept his request exactly? what did he do on the crucifixion day?
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inJESUS
Guest
To Faith, this is some explanation and i hope you answer the question :
Let me quote to you the explanation of Jeremiah passage, it’s beautiful :
Verse 1. If a man put away his wife] It was ever understood, by the law and practice of the country, that if a woman were divorced by her husband, and became the wife of another man, the first husband could never take her again. Now Israel had been married unto the Lord; joined in solemn covenant to him to worship and serve him only. Israel turned from following him, and became idolatrous. On this ground, considering idolatry as a spiritual whoredom, and the precept and practice of the law to illustrate this case, Israel could never more be restored to the Divine favour: but God, this first husband, in the plenitude of his mercy, is willing to receive this adulterous spouse, if she will abandon her idolatries and return unto him. And this and the following chapters are spent in affectionate remonstrances and loving exhortations addressed to these sinful people, to make them sensible of their own sin, and God’s tender mercy in offering to receive them again into favour.
And Deuteronomy 24:
Verse 1. Some uncleanness] Any cause of dislike, for this great latitude of meaning the fact itself authorizes us to adopt, for it is certain that a Jew might put away his wife for any cause that seemed good to himself; and so hard were their hearts, that Moses suffered this; and we find they continued this practice even to the time of our Lord, who strongly reprehended them on the account, and showed that such license was wholly inconsistent with the original design of marriage; see Matthew v. 31, &c.; xix. 3, &c., and the notes there.
Verse 4. She is defiled] Does not this refer to her having been divorced, and married in consequence to another? Though God, for the hardness of their hearts, suffered them to put away their wives, yet he considered all after-marriages in that case to be pollution and defilement; and it is on this ground that our Lord argues in the places referred to above, that whoever marries the woman that is put away is an adulterer: now this could not have been the case if God had allowed the divorce to be a legal and proper separation of the man from his wife; but in the sight of God nothing can be a legal cause of separation but adultery on either side. In such a case, according to the law of God, a man may put away his wife, and a wife may put away her husband; (see Matt. xix. 9
for it appears that the wife had as much right to put away her husband as the husband had to put away his wife, see Mark x. 12.
Hence, marriage according to God is a sacred union…divorce is called adultry because marriage union and sacradeness is compared, by God , to our relationship with Him…you find this exact notion in such passages and on the mouth of Lord Jesus…so marriage is so sacred that it’s compared to us and God…when you leave God for something else, you are commiting adultary, thats why you are “defiled”.
Now that you understood the context in a better way, can you tell us how is this sacredness and unity translated in quran ? in the divorce law, polygamy, and marrying someone else to go back to your husband? these are **3 ** **CONTADICTORY ** teachings to God’s teachings.
Let me quote to you the explanation of Jeremiah passage, it’s beautiful :
Verse 1. If a man put away his wife] It was ever understood, by the law and practice of the country, that if a woman were divorced by her husband, and became the wife of another man, the first husband could never take her again. Now Israel had been married unto the Lord; joined in solemn covenant to him to worship and serve him only. Israel turned from following him, and became idolatrous. On this ground, considering idolatry as a spiritual whoredom, and the precept and practice of the law to illustrate this case, Israel could never more be restored to the Divine favour: but God, this first husband, in the plenitude of his mercy, is willing to receive this adulterous spouse, if she will abandon her idolatries and return unto him. And this and the following chapters are spent in affectionate remonstrances and loving exhortations addressed to these sinful people, to make them sensible of their own sin, and God’s tender mercy in offering to receive them again into favour.
And Deuteronomy 24:
Verse 1. Some uncleanness] Any cause of dislike, for this great latitude of meaning the fact itself authorizes us to adopt, for it is certain that a Jew might put away his wife for any cause that seemed good to himself; and so hard were their hearts, that Moses suffered this; and we find they continued this practice even to the time of our Lord, who strongly reprehended them on the account, and showed that such license was wholly inconsistent with the original design of marriage; see Matthew v. 31, &c.; xix. 3, &c., and the notes there.
Verse 4. She is defiled] Does not this refer to her having been divorced, and married in consequence to another? Though God, for the hardness of their hearts, suffered them to put away their wives, yet he considered all after-marriages in that case to be pollution and defilement; and it is on this ground that our Lord argues in the places referred to above, that whoever marries the woman that is put away is an adulterer: now this could not have been the case if God had allowed the divorce to be a legal and proper separation of the man from his wife; but in the sight of God nothing can be a legal cause of separation but adultery on either side. In such a case, according to the law of God, a man may put away his wife, and a wife may put away her husband; (see Matt. xix. 9
for it appears that the wife had as much right to put away her husband as the husband had to put away his wife, see Mark x. 12.Hence, marriage according to God is a sacred union…divorce is called adultry because marriage union and sacradeness is compared, by God , to our relationship with Him…you find this exact notion in such passages and on the mouth of Lord Jesus…so marriage is so sacred that it’s compared to us and God…when you leave God for something else, you are commiting adultary, thats why you are “defiled”.
Now that you understood the context in a better way, can you tell us how is this sacredness and unity translated in quran ? in the divorce law, polygamy, and marrying someone else to go back to your husband? these are **3 ** **CONTADICTORY ** teachings to God’s teachings.
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Faith101
Guest
The fact that you believe is that Jesus prayed that God would let this pass from him…but he, being a believing servant, left it to God’s will. Looking at the events that unfolded in the Bible, that prayer was not answered…as Jesus was crucified.
In Islam, we dont know for sure if Jesus made that prayer…but if he did…then it was answered…and God raised Jesus up to Himself…and prohibited those disbelievers from harming the beloved messenger. That is what the Quran says about that day, that those people did not crucify or kill Jesus the Messiah…
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Faith101
Guest
I didnt know Catholics werent allowed to divorce either, i thought that was only orthodox Christians. Do all denominations follow this rule as it is written in the Bible?To Faith, this is some explanation and i hope you answer the question :
Let me quote to you the explanation of Jeremiah passage, it’s beautiful :
Verse 1. If a man put away his wife] It was ever understood, by the law and practice of the country, that if a woman were divorced by her husband, and became the wife of another man, the first husband could never take her again. Now Israel had been married unto the Lord; joined in solemn covenant to him to worship and serve him only. Israel turned from following him, and became idolatrous. On this ground, considering idolatry as a spiritual whoredom, and the precept and practice of the law to illustrate this case, Israel could never more be restored to the Divine favour: but God, this first husband, in the plenitude of his mercy, is willing to receive this adulterous spouse, if she will abandon her idolatries and return unto him. And this and the following chapters are spent in affectionate remonstrances and loving exhortations addressed to these sinful people, to make them sensible of their own sin, and God’s tender mercy in offering to receive them again into favour.
And Deuteronomy 24:
Verse 1. Some uncleanness] Any cause of dislike, for this great latitude of meaning the fact itself authorizes us to adopt, for it is certain that a Jew might put away his wife for any cause that seemed good to himself; and so hard were their hearts, that Moses suffered this; and we find they continued this practice even to the time of our Lord, who strongly reprehended them on the account, and showed that such license was wholly inconsistent with the original design of marriage; see Matthew v. 31, &c.; xix. 3, &c., and the notes there.
Verse 4. She is defiled] Does not this refer to her having been divorced, and married in consequence to another? Though God, for the hardness of their hearts, suffered them to put away their wives, yet he considered all after-marriages in that case to be pollution and defilement; and it is on this ground that our Lord argues in the places referred to above, that whoever marries the woman that is put away is an adulterer: now this could not have been the case if God had allowed the divorce to be a legal and proper separation of the man from his wife; but in the sight of God nothing can be a legal cause of separation but adultery on either side. In such a case, according to the law of God, a man may put away his wife, and a wife may put away her husband; (see Matt. xix. 9
Hence, marriage according to God is a sacred union…divorce is called adultry because marriage union and sacradeness is compared, by God , to our relationship with Him…you find this exact notion in such passages and on the mouth of Lord Jesus…so marriage is so sacred that it’s compared to us and God…when you leave God for something else, you are commiting adultary, thats why you are “defiled”.
Now that you understood the context in a better way, can you tell us how is this sacredness and unity translated in quran ? in the divorce law, polygamy, and marrying someone else to go back to your husband? these are **3 ** **CONTADICTORY ** teachings to God’s teachings.
Look, if this is what you believe…than i’m not going to argue with you about it.
Islamically, divorce is the most hated of all permissible things…but it is still permissible…because there are circumstances where two people can not live together anymore…and their union serves more harm then benefit. For us, dissolving that marriage doesnt make you an adulterer, and there is no harm on the woman or the man that they attempt to find another spouse who they are able to find tranqulity with…as marriage was created for that purpose:
And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect (Quran 30:21)
This is our belief. I understand you believe that anyone who divorces is an adulterer, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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