Islamic prayer

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So, for the last four thousand years, the family split continues…

decendants of Isaac include the Jews and then Christians

decendants of Ishmael include the Arab nations.

and they are still at war… with weapons and with words

One son is the son born first… but to the slave woman

One son is the first born… with the privileges of being the father of the great nations

Will there ever be peace in the family… maybe in the next 4000 years
 
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Muslim:
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inJESUS:
you can do whatever YOU want to… i can go get drunk if I want to…i can go have sex with everyone if i want to… no one is going to stop me. God is not going to stop me…
but on the day of Judgement, thats when my actions will be judged.
and the way WE pray is different than the way YOU pray.
and if you knew Isa-ala-salam that well, you would be a Muslim 🙂
You’re so loaded with manmade rituals passed off as God’s laws, that you’re just like the Pharisees and just as arrogant!

Vickie
 
hhey Freedom, how do you make sure these passages are not corrupt? :bounce:
 
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inJESUS:
a link about who muslim scholars think the child is:

answering-islam.org/Shamoun/sacrifice.htm
That’s the point I was getting at, of course Muslims think it was Ishmael, but the fact is it doesn’t really matter which child Abraham was ordered to sacrifice, the promise and the covenant and the special status with God went to ISAAC and JACOB and JACOB’s sons.

Anyway, as I said twice already, Jacob also had children with the maids of his wives, did he marry them as well? Why do the wives consider the children to be their own then?
 
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inJESUS:
hhey Freedom, how do you make sure these passages are not corrupt? :bounce:
Dear inJESUS:

It is for you to make sure that your scriptures are not corrupted if you really want to sell them.

My purpose of qouting your and Jewish Bible was to show you the clear contradictions in your/Jewish Bible, in this issue that even a child with basic common sense can see/realise them.

As a Muslim, I am not in need of your scriptures’ support to my belief. My belief is based on what Islam asked me to believe. But if you ask a Muslim to accept your story than I have a right to take a look your scriptures critically before buying it.

If you tell me that God is ONE and not a man, I will buy it. If you tell me that salvation is due to following Laws and Commandments of God, I will buy it. But then if you tell me that Jesus hanged on the tree and accursed of God, and was God too at the same time…then I would say "wait a minute! first all this sounds irrational and second does your scriptures really say this or it was Jesus’ enemy trying to discredit Jesus’ whole mission by fabricating devilish ideas cloaked in over-praising statements?

See? not everythig can be accepted and not everything can be rejected at the same time. Everyone has a right to accept or reject based on his/her logic/reasoning/faith, otherwise ALL people would have been followers of just Buddha or just Jesus (PBUH) or just Moses (PBUH). This world is a test/trial for men who are given free-choice. Man does not have absolute Free Will. It is ONLY GOD who Has Absolute FREE-WILL.

Do you agree with all the teachings of Buddha and then ready to reject your Christianity?

Did Jesus accept Buddhaism and stop teachings his own theology?

What real problem do you have with Buddhaism?

Why Buddha cannot be your ideal man when Jesus was not always ‘peacefull’ and ‘compassionate’. Remember those classic Seven or Eight WOES and those more than ten harsh words used by Jesus for high ranking Scribes and the Pharisees of his time (as reported in your Gospels)?

 
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LilyM:
That’s the point I was getting at, of course Muslims think it was Ishmael, **but the fact is it doesn’t really matter which child Abraham was ordered to sacrifice, **the promise and the covenant and the special status with God went to ISAAC and JACOB and JACOB’s sons.

Anyway, as I said twice already, Jacob also had children with the maids of his wives, did he marry them as well? Why do the wives consider the children to be their own then?
if it doesn’t, we will miss some good theology…

Not only was it important for Abraham to accept God’s request to offer up his “first born”… only… not his “born first”

but

it was also important that Isaac be willing to be offered up.

Remember, only the two went up the mountain (same mountain chain as calvary). Abraham was an OLD man, and his son was young, strong and healthy and could have overcome his father. But he too was submitting to God’s Will.

other similarities to Christ:

-three days to get to the mountain (3rd day Christ rises to freedom, His and ours)
-carring the wood up for his own sacrifice (Christ carries His cross)
-ram caught in the bramble…same as used to make the crown of thorns
-same mountain chain (Moriah and Calvary)
-son accepting the sacrifice (Jesus accepts the “cup”)
-the altar of sacrifice
-son is maternal head of great nation (Jesus is spiritual head)
 
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LilyM:
I don’t think it’s just us - I’m pretty sure the Jews believe Abraham was only married to Sarah as well, and not to Ishmael’s mother. So it was technically adultery - but it wasn’t unheard of - Jacob also bore children to his wives’ maids as well as to them - seems that childless women considered children born to their maids to be their own.

Nothing incompatible with being sinful (or committing sins) and a great person - King David actually had a woman’s husband killed so that he could take her as his wife. THAT is a sin in anyone’s language - and the prophet Nathan gave him a good talking to as a result. David repented and obviously was forgiven, but funnily enough kept her as his wife 😉

See this is where our idea of original sin comes in - even the greatest of humans has the desire and the capacity to sin. Jesus and Mary are the only exceptions that we know of because Jesus being God incarnate was without sin and Mary in order to be fit to be the mother of God was created without it.
LilyM

We dont believe that men who were chosen by God to relay a message, committed sins like the ones you just mentioned. Abraham as an adulterer? It hurts to even type that, truly shame on the person who can even utter those words.
 
freed,
I think the idea of God coming to us makes a lot more sense then some guy claiming he is talking to God. And God very convienently let’s him marry all the women he wants including a 9 year old, and to kill those who don’t like his poetry, or who disagree with him…well you get the picture. The only person who attests to the quran is possible Uthman. I don’t see him as all that trustworthy.
 
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Faith101:
LilyM

We dont believe that men who were chosen by God to relay a message, committed sins like the ones you just mentioned. Abraham as an adulterer? It hurts to even type that, truly shame on the person who can even utter those words.
I don’t follow this at all. Didn’t Mohammed sleep with women he wasn’t married to? - in our books that is adultery, certainly our God doesn’t allow prophets special ‘privileges’ as far as women goes. Your allah seems to be a little more flexible on the subject …
 
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Faith101:
LilyM

We dont believe that men who were chosen by God to relay a message, committed sins like the ones you just mentioned. Abraham as an adulterer? It hurts to even type that, truly shame on the person who can even utter those words.
prophets are not God…they are not sinless people…they are righteous and they convey God’s message but they are not perfect people…they are human beings and the Bible is very clear that none of them was perfect, only Jesus Christ.
 
prophets are not God…they are not sinless people…they are righteous
righteous men?? You call men who commit adultery and sleep with their daughters righteous??
and they convey God’s message but they are not perfect people…they are human beings and the Bible is very clear that none of them was perfect, only Jesus Christ.
Perfection belongs only to God. THese messengers were role models for people. God chose the best amongst the people to relay the message…not a bunch of fornicators, that commited sins WHILE being messengers.
 
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inJESUS:
prophets are not God…they are not sinless people…they are righteous and they convey God’s message but they are not perfect people…they are human beings and the Bible is very clear that none of them was perfect, only Jesus Christ.
Define righteous.
 
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Faith101:
Define righteous.
they are righteous in the sense that they believe in God and try to live righteously, that is, according to God’s law but they are not perfect…the Bible traces the history of God with His people, how their concept of Him was and how they applied/failed to apply God’s law and how God dealt with good/evil and how God showed who he really is and what he wants in Jesus who was perfect, unlike any other prophet. The Bible shows all kinds of sin and evil in addition to righteousness to show that none is sinless and none met God’s law fully except Lord Jesus.
Am not only talking about OT prophets, but you see the weaknesses of the disciples as well in the NT.
 
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inJESUS:
they are righteous in the sense that they believe in God and try to live righteously, that is, according to God’s law but they are not perfect…the Bible traces the history of God with His people, how their concept of Him was and how they applied/failed to apply God’s law and how God dealt with good/evil and how God showed who he really is and what he wants in Jesus who was perfect, unlike any other prophet. The Bible shows all kinds of sin and evil in addition to righteousness to show that none is sinless and none met God’s law fully except Lord Jesus.
Am not only talking about OT prophets, but you see the weaknesses of the disciples as well in the NT.
if being righteous includes commiting adultery and getting drunk…then we will have to agree to disagree.
 
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Faith101:
if being righteous includes commiting adultery and getting drunk…then we will have to agree to disagree.
you are putting words in my mouth…i did not say that righteousness includes adultery ; i said that righteousness is to try to live according to God’s wish, but prophets are humans with human weaknesses unless you consider them angels…prophets do not commit sins intentionally to defy God, that wouldnt be called righteousness.Didn’t Allah say that he will forgive Mohammad’s mistakes/sins?

Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe.
 
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inJESUS:
you are putting words in my mouth…i did not say that righteousness includes adultery ; i said that righteousness is to try to live according to God’s wish, but prophets are humans with human weaknesses unless you consider them angels…prophets do not commit sins intentionally to defy God, that wouldnt be called righteousness.Didn’t Allah say that he will forgive Mohammad’s mistakes/sins?

Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe.
No one is perfect except God. We agree. Only God is free of need of water and food and sleep.

Was Abraham righteous or not? Do you believe he committed adultery or not?
 
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Faith101:
No one is perfect except God. We agree. Only God is free of need of water and food and sleep.

Was Abraham righteous or not? Do you believe he committed adultery or not?
yes Abraham was righteous of course…yes i believe he committed adultery cuz he had sex outside marriage ; he did not do it to defy God though, but his weakness and fear of not having children, thou God promised him, dominated . It was Sarah who asked him to sleep with Hagar, not God.

“Do not be afraid Abram I am your shield, your reward shall be very great” (v. 1). Abraham’s response in verse 2 is interesting: “Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless.” Obviously, Abraham was beginning to get a little impatient with God’s timetable for the promise. God was willing to reaffirm the promise, but Abraham still saw no sign that anything was happening to make it a reality. Abraham’s very human frustration was clearly evident. How could he be the father of a great nation when he still had no children and Sarah was still barren?
Abraham still believed but was starting to get a little impatient with God. His only male heir was a servant, Eliezer of Damascus: “Look, you have given me no offspring so a slave born in my house is my heir!” He was not so gently pointing out to God that if he didn’t do something about the promise the only descendants Abraham would have would be through legal customs and not his own offspring. And yet God steadfastly affirmed the promise, this time giving Abraham more specifics on the outworking of the promise. The word of the Lord came to him, in verse 4: “This man shall not be your heir; no one but your very own issue shall be your heir.” For the first time God specified that it will be Abraham’s own physical descendant that will be the inheritor of the promise. And again God reaffirmed the larger promise to Abraham (v. 5): "Then he brought him outside and said, ‘Look now toward heaven, your descendants will be like the stars of the sky.’
The story continues in chapter 16. After the beautiful passage where God entered into covenant with Abraham and again affirmed his call upon his life, the narrator intrudes with a stark reminder of the reality of life: “Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, bore him no children.” Nothing really had changed in Abraham’s life. There was still no future here, even after all the great things that God had said. Now at this point Abraham was convinced that the promise was real, and he now knew that he would have a child who would be heir of the promise. But he was still not convinced that Sarah would be a part of the promise. What unfolds in the chapter is the well known incident of Hagar that again marks Abraham’s failure to trust God
Finally, Abraham had a child and the promise could begin unfolding! But as we have already come to expect now in the narrative, Abraham had created a problem by attempting to make the promise happen on his own terms. Tension emerged as Sarah became jealous of Hagar, and Hagar was forced to flee with the child Ishmael. God took care of Hagar and the child. But as soon as Hagar left the future was again at risk. Even though Abraham had a child, it seemed obvious that this was not the way to the promise. And so once again the failure of Abraham to trust God with the promise introduced something less than blessing into the world, and unfolded in pain and conflict.

for the whole article about God’s promise to Abraham:

cresourcei.org/abraham.html
 
Abraham was not sinless. Also at that time they did not have the fullest revelation of faith and morals. Abraham obeyed God according to what he knew at the time. We are fortunate that what God revealed only dimmly before he has revealed fully in His Son.
 
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Faith101:
The Quran was revealed in Arabic…and we believe that it is the direct word of God, therfore any translation by any human being renders it not divine.

Over 85% of Muslims are not Arabs. You dont have to understand Arabic to be a pious Muslim, as Mohammed said in his last sermon “no arab is superior over a non-arab…except in piety”. Many non-arabs do learn Arabic though, its really not that hard…i learned it.
“no arab is superior over a non-arab…except in piety”

means

“arabs are superior in piety”

means

“non-arabs inferior in piety”

It is amazing how such sentence (There are many sentences in Quran using similar tricks) can play with our mind, thinking that “Muhammad does not say that arabs are superior” when actually he does.
 
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