Israel Launches Operation Pillar of Defense against Gaza

[JustaServant]

Exactly. It reminds me of 9 year old boys and the "clubs’ they make with cool sounding, “warrior” names.Hey, there’s a thought. Let’s have a contest for our next military adventure, where the 9-year-olds can compete to name the “operation.”

I’ve lived 50 years on this planet, and I hope I have gained some wisdom in that time, Lord knows I have a ways to go. My wife and I are “old souls”. our parents were older when we were born, so we both relate to the values of a generation now rapidly disappearing.
I suppose they saw the ‘war fever’ themselves when they were young. Boys going off to war with all the enthusiasm of going off to summer camp.
My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did (so my dad related), this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby.
The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war.
My parents generation had a proper respect for life. I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2, torture, drone attacks on civilians who “might” be terroists, detaining people without trial indefinately. The kind of tactics that drove the Nazis into historical defeat.
I suppose only those with a proper understanding of history weep at the direction our country is headed in. The idea that some can dare to bring religion into it, boggles the mind. The fact that Catholics support it, is tragic.
Jesus said “you live by the sword, you die by the sword”.
Open your eyes folks. Get off the emotional parade drummed up by polititians and talking heads on TV. Stop assuming God is on your side. Violence only leads to more violence. Torture leads to more torture. War to suffering. It’s not “fun”.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
If we go down this path of attacking Iran, I truly fear we are starting something that could very easily get out of control, and become a global tragedy.
Our Lady at Fatima said war is a punishment for sin. We are now coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Fatima apparitions…
Maybe some of us need to turn off Bill O’Rielly and pick up our Rosary beads.

 

[Dale_M]

Poll shows Israelis dissatisfied with cease-fire

A poll shows about half of Israelis think their government should have continued its military offensive against Palestinian militants in Hamas-ruled Gaza.

The independent Maagar Mohot poll released on Friday shows 49 percent of respondents feel Israel should have kept going after squads who fire rockets into Israel. Thirty-one percent supported the government’s decision to stop. Twenty percent had no opinion.

Twenty-nine percent thought Israel should have sent ground troops to invade Gaza.

foxnews.com/world/2012/11/23/poll-shows-israelis-dissatisfied-with-cease-fire/

The poll has an error margin of 4.5 percentage points.

According to the same poll, the cease-fire seems to have hurt Netanyahu’s support in the upcoming election. However, he is still expected to win.
reuters.com/article/2012/11/23/us-israel-election-idUSBRE8AM05U20121123?irpc=932

The second article mentions that although 29% favored a ground invasion of Gaza, 41% were opposed.

 

[BroomWagon]

I’ve lived 50 years on this planet, and I hope I have gained some wisdom in that time, Lord knows I have a ways to go. My wife and I are “old souls”. our parents were older when we were born, so we both relate to the values of a generation now rapidly disappearing.
I suppose they saw the ‘war fever’ themselves when they were young. Boys going off to war with all the enthusiasm of going off to summer camp.
My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did (so my dad related), this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby.
The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war.
My parents generation had a proper respect for life. I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2, torture, drone attacks on civilians who “might” be terroists, detaining people without trial indefinately. The kind of tactics that drove the Nazis into historical defeat.
I suppose only those with a proper understanding of history weep at the direction our country is headed in. The idea that some can dare to bring religion into it, boggles the mind. The fact that Catholics support it, is tragic.
Jesus said “you live by the sword, you die by the sword”.
Open your eyes folks. Get off the emotional parade drummed up by polititians and talking heads on TV. Stop assuming God is on your side. Violence only leads to more violence. Torture leads to more torture. War to suffering. It’s not “fun”.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
If we go down this path of attacking Iran, I truly fear we are starting something that could very easily get out of control, and become a global tragedy.
Our Lady at Fatima said war is a punishment for sin. We are now coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Fatima apparitions…
Maybe some of us need to turn off Bill O’Rielly and pick up our Rosary beads.

Why single out O’Reilly here? What has he said that goes against what your big speech is about. I’ll listen to O’Reilly because we have an alternative to the mainstream media misreporting the facts.

 

[JustaServant]

Why single out O’Reilly here? What has he said that goes against what your big speech is about. I’ll listen to O’Reilly because we have an alternative to the mainstream media misreporting the facts.

Bill “Do it live!!” OReilly is a shrill for neo-cons. He is pro-war, pro-torture, pro-Patriot Act.
He IS part of the “mainstream media” as is the False News Channel. They are hardly an “alternative”.

 

[7_Sorrows]

The silly names for these “operations” always bemuse me. Why not call them all “Operation Kill Some Fellow Human Beings” and skip the euphemisms? They could even have an international numbering system, like, OKSFHB I, OKSFHB II, etc. It would be easier for the archivists.

yes, when we invaded Iraq in 2003, the military campaign was named “shock and awe”. i thought it sounded stupid and arrogant and i had a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that it wasn’t going to be that easy. turns out, my instinct was right.
i don’t understand why we have to name hurricanes either.

 

[BroomWagon]

Bill “Do it live!!” OReilly is a shrill for neo-cons. He is pro-war, pro-torture, pro-Patriot Act.
He IS part of the “mainstream media” as is the False News Channel. They are hardly an “alternative”.

Links to pro-war, Torture? you throw around a lot of accusations. I hear people do this but when it comes to proof, they are all talk.

foxnewsinsider.com/2012/09/11/the-war-on-terror-bill-oreilly-says-invading-iraq-was-a-mistake/ This isn’t it.

And yes, we all know some people would rather see Americans killed than get confessions through water-boarding, not torture.

nation.foxnews.com/usama-bin-laden/2011/05/09/case-you-missed-it-oreillys-waterboarding-expose

I don’t believe name-calling as well is meant on this forum. It’s Fox news by the way.

And thank goodness for an alternative to being brainwashed by the Alphabet Networks for 50 years, yeah, when has Fox News ever doctored a tape to make someone sound like a racist as NBC has done with George Zimmerman? Or when has MSNBC had the likes of Al Sharpton and his involvement in the Freddy’s Mart affair where someone was killed?

More like someone sounds like a shill for Daily Kos and Radical Leftists or even Info Wars and Alex Jones.

Insulting people’s intellect with such outrageous views.

 

[doormouse73]

And it’s not an open-air concentration camp?

so the great wall of China was to keep the invaders in a concentration camp…

the same with castle walls and motes…

its for defence…get a life and stop the victim roll… its bad news all round…

 

[Faithdancer]

yes, when we invaded Iraq in 2003, the military campaign was named “shock and awe”. i thought it sounded stupid and arrogant and i had a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that it wasn’t going to be that easy. turns out, my instinct was right.
i don’t understand why we have to name hurricanes either.

That’s my point. Sometimes we have to fight, to defend ourselves and- cliched though it sounds- to defend democracy. But we don’t have to glorify it, particularly since there is always, inevitably, “collateral damage.”

The Gettysburg address is a good model- Lincoln alluded to the horror of the war, and declared his belief that the Union must be preserved, but he never glorified the war or bragged about the “victory.” There were far too many corpses on that battlefield for that.
It was all in all a very solemn and somber speech.

 

[1AugustSon7]

You are completely missing the point, Doormouse.

The fact that the Nazis ruled Germany for a time does not, e.g., mean the German people cease being an actual people (even if, e.g., their country were under direct occupation by Allied Powers).

The Palestinian people are just that - a people, entitled, as such, to the same rights as any other people.

Unfortunately, those who disgrace themselves by degrading the Palestinian people out of existence are ressurecting a very old and very scary ghost that the Church has always fought against and denied:

Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1939:

An error, “today adundantly widespread, is disregard for the law of human solidarity and charity, dictated and imposed both by our common origin and by the equality in rational nature of all men, whatever nation they belong to. This law is sealed by the sacrifice of redemption offered by Jesus Christ on the altar of the Cross to his heavenly Father, on behalf of sinful humanity.”

• Pope Pius XII, Summi pontificatus, October 20, 1939.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 360:

360 Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity [emphasis in original], for “from one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth”: Acts 17:26; cf. Tob 8:6.]

O wondrous vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God . . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end; . . . in the unity of the redemption wrought by Christ for all. [227]

361 “This law of human solidarity and charity,” [228]without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures, and peoples, assures us that all men are truly brethren.​

The quotes for footnotes 227 and 228 are from the the same encyclical by His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, published right after the break-out of World War II, which is surely not a coincidence.

@ 1AugustSon7

is that so,then why is their an entrenched praise and honour of the german nazis inbred in the palestinians?

read this then ask me what you have just said…

cojs.org/cojswiki/The_Mufti_of_Jerusalem_and_Yasser_Arafat

 

[JustaServant]

so the great wall of China was to keep the invaders in a concentration camp…

the same with castle walls and motes…

its for defence…get a life and stop the victim roll… its bad news all round…

I don’t recall the Chinese “counting the calories” of the people who were invading them…

 

[doormouse73]

You are completely missing the point, Doormouse.

The fact that the Nazis ruled Germany for a time does not, e.g., mean the German people cease being an actual people (even if, e.g., their country were under direct occupation by Allied Powers).

The Palestinian people are just that - a people, entitled, as such, to the same rights as any other people.

Unfortunately, those who disgrace themselves by degrading the Palestinian people out of existence are ressurecting a very old and very scary ghost that the Church has always fought against and denied:

Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1939:

An error, “today adundantly widespread, is disregard for the law of human solidarity and charity, dictated and imposed both by our common origin and by the equality in rational nature of all men, whatever nation they belong to. This law is sealed by the sacrifice of redemption offered by Jesus Christ on the altar of the Cross to his heavenly Father, on behalf of sinful humanity.”

• Pope Pius XII, Summi pontificatus, October 20, 1939.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 360:

360 Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity [emphasis in original], for “from one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth”: Acts 17:26; cf. Tob 8:6.]

O wondrous vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God . . . in the unity of its nature, composed equally in all men of a material body and a spiritual soul; in the unity of its immediate end and its mission in the world; in the unity of its dwelling, the earth, whose benefits all men, by right of nature, may use to sustain and develop life; in the unity of its supernatural end: God himself, to whom all ought to tend; in the unity of the means for attaining this end; . . . in the unity of the redemption wrought by Christ for all. [227]

361 “This law of human solidarity and charity,” [228]without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures, and peoples, assures us that all men are truly brethren.​

Footnotes 227 amd 228 are from the the same encyclical by His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, published right after the break-out of World War II, which is surely not a coincidence.

im not missing the point. you said

And it’s not an open-air concentration camp?

well it isnt,your playing the silly game they play…

they(palestinians) should vote the government out then if they think it is doing a bad job for there civilians.

they (palestinians)say the majority dont want this going on,so if the majority vote against them it wont.but alas,it keeps on happening.

or is it a rogue government who are always in power?

if so its those who should be brought to justice,nobody else.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Next time try reading the post first before responding.

Denying to acknowledge a people as such is the very error Pope Pius XII was proscribing, denying and condemning; nor does the pseudo-logic of two wrongs making a right suffice to excuse the error: even when the Germans were ruled and lead by the Nazis, they did not stop being a people; much less did they cease being a people when the Allies occupied Germany.

im not missing the point. you said well it isnt,your playing the silly game they play…

they(palestinians) should vote the government out then if they think it is doing a bad job for there civilians.

they (palestinians)say the majority dont want this going on,so if the majority vote against them it wont.but alas,it keeps on happening.

or is it a rogue government who are always in power?

if so its those who should be brought to justice,nobody else.

 

[doormouse73]

Next time try reading the post first before responding.

Denying to acknowledge a people as such is the very error Pope Pius XII was proscribing, denying and condemning; nor does the pseudo-logic of two wrongs making a right suffice to excuse the error: even when the Germans were ruled and lead by the Nazis, they did not stop being a people; much less did they cease being a people when the Allies occupied Germany.

and maybe you should read my post properly when you say things like open concentration camps… and not give a proper reply.
denying that they are not what you say is rather ignorant aswell,isnt it?

or does it only come into play one way? i can see were your logic falls with the argument you hold with this thread.

 

[JustaServant]

and maybe you should read my post properly when you say things like open concentration camps… and not give a proper reply.
denying that they are not what you say is rather ignorant aswell,isnt it?

or does it only come into play one way? i can see were your logic falls with the argument you hold with this thread.

He didn’t say it,*** I*** said it.
And I stand by it.

 

[7_Sorrows]

That’s my point. Sometimes we have to fight, to defend ourselves and- cliched though it sounds- to defend democracy. But we don’t have to glorify it, particularly since there is always, inevitably, “collateral damage.”

The Gettysburg address is a good model- Lincoln alluded to the horror of the war, and declared his belief that the Union must be preserved, but he never glorified the war or bragged about the “victory.” There were far too many corpses on that battlefield for that.
It was all in all a very solemn and somber speech.

i totally agree with you. we do have to defend ourselves and democracy, but, as you say, it shouldn’t be glorified. the name “shock and awe” in regards to the military campaign in iraq was almost inviting failure. it was not a well planned campaign i don’t think because once they got in there, there was not an exit plan. they didn’t even capture saddam hussein during the invasion. the news media was excitedly telling us about bunker busting bombs or something like that, and there was definitely collateral damage. very sad. don’t get me wrong. i am proud of our soldiers. i think it is the higher ups in the military that need to rethink what they are doing.

 

[HansTrappist]

im going to be as charitable as i can here…

palestinians have the right to defend them selves???

what hiding behind women and children…

its like the bully who hides behind his mams frock…

if thats the case we all can defend our selves full stop.simple.

im from England,and i dont believe in what my country has done down the years to other countries and this is one of them…

there is no such a place called Palestine… in my eyes…its a made up country.

have you seen the size of Israel.and all the islamic countries want the lot…look at a map to what surrounds Israel.its not as though the jews are going to other countries and trying to take over.implementing there laws on any body…

why do people call them terrorists?they are killers of the first degree.we dont understand there way of thinking because we dont live by the same values…dont think that everybody has the same values as the west,they dont…

If Palestine is a “made-up country” then so is the modern state of Israel, which did not exist prior to 1948.

Since you are from England, then you would be familiar with the history of the British Mandate of Palestine - what is today called Israel. Zionist paramilitary groups in the 1940’s such as the Lehi (the “Stern Gang”) and the Irgun used terrorist tactics to forcibly evict the British authorities from Palestine, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. In 1944, the Stern Gang assassinated the British minister of state, Edward Lord Moyne, in Cairo. In 1946, the Irgun detonated a bomb in the headquarters for the British Mandate for Palestine, murdering 91 Brits, Arabs, and Jews. In 1948, these Zionist terrorist groups (I think back then they were called “freedom fighters”) commited the atrocity at Deir Yassin. Because of this massacre, 600,000 Arabs fled the British Mandate of Palestine, thus ensuring a Jewish majority in the former Mandate. Now, the point of this history lesson, doormouse, is to emphasize one of the points that Seumas Milne was making in his article, namely, that Hamas is using the same terrrorist tactics against Israel that “Israel” used against the British in the 1940s. For some reason, the Zionists have been lionized while Hamas is demonized. I wonder why?

 

[Wampa]

I apologize for sounding snarky about the research bit. It just started to feel like I was being jumped on for asking a sincere question. In rereading the article, it does seem as though certain words were put into the cardinal’s mouth. Probably in part b/c of his phraseology. However, it still bothers me that nothing was said about Jewish babies all these years, and suddenly Palestinian babies dying gets all the attention.

oneseeker2

Understood and apology accepted I actually did try and go backwards to reconstruct some history of previous Vatican comments on the ongoing dispute (I would imagine there probably would have been some comments on the rocket attacks earlier), but I didn’t have much luck finding anything on it, so I didn’t comment on it.

Your thread has kind of gotten lost within this larger one since threads got merged, so I will probably move on to other topics. I do think, as many other posters commented, that we will see more out of the Vatican - or that Cardinal - on the topic of his comments. I would like to the text of his full initial comments. I think we’ll have a better sense once more info is out there, but I feel quite confident at this point disregarding that biased article take on it - sees like he was much more interested in grinding an axe than reporting on actual happenings.

 

[doormouse73]

If Palestine is a “made-up country” then so is the modern state of Israel, which did not exist prior to 1948.

Since you are from England, then you would be familiar with the history of the British Mandate of Palestine - what is today called Israel. Zionist paramilitary groups in the 1940’s such as the Lehi (the “Stern Gang”) and the Irgun used terrorist tactics to forcibly evict the British authorities from Palestine, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. In 1944, the Stern Gang assassinated the British minister of state, Edward Lord Moyne, in Cairo. In 1946, the Irgun detonated a bomb in the headquarters for the British Mandate for Palestine, murdering 91 Brits, Arabs, and Jews. In 1948, these Zionist terrorist groups (I think back then they were called “freedom fighters”) commited the atrocity at Deir Yassin. Because of this massacre, 600,000 Arabs fled the British Mandate of Palestine, thus ensuring a Jewish majority in the former Mandate. Now, the point of this history lesson, doormouse, is to emphasize one of the points that Seumas Milne was making in his article, namely, that Hamas is using the same terrrorist tactics against Israel that “Israel” used against the British in the 1940s. For some reason, the Zionists have been lionized while Hamas is demonized. I wonder why?

For some reason, the Zionists have been lionized while Hamas is demonized. I wonder why?

maybe you should look at ALL the images of hamas/palestinians…

the children s tv pictures are real.they show things like this to the Palestinian children,its not a photo shop…look at how they talk about the jews… its like somebody talking 1400 years ago…

google.co.uk/search?q=hamas&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=H9mvUOqmF4ap0AW6ooDwBg&ved=0CIYBELAE&biw=1024&bih=522#hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&q=hamas+children&revid=1955857432&sa=X&ei=MNmvULTKGI-o0AXugIGQDA&ved=0CIUBEIMW&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=c5945a6e1f7486ca&bpcl=38897761&biw=1024&bih=522

google.co.uk/search?q=hamas&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=H9mvUOqmF4ap0AW6ooDwBg&ved=0CIYBELAE&biw=1024&bih=522

now what was you saying???

and why did they flee,was it because Britain had pulled out?

 

[HansTrappist]

maybe you should look at ALL the images of hamas/palestinians…

the children s tv pictures are real.they show things like this to the Palestinian children,its not a photo shop…look at how they talk about the jews… its like somebody talking 1400 years ago…

google.co.uk/search?q=hamas&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=H9mvUOqmF4ap0AW6ooDwBg&ved=0CIYBELAE&biw=1024&bih=522#hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&q=hamas+children&revid=1955857432&sa=X&ei=MNmvULTKGI-o0AXugIGQDA&ved=0CIUBEIMW&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=c5945a6e1f7486ca&bpcl=38897761&biw=1024&bih=522

google.co.uk/search?q=hamas&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=H9mvUOqmF4ap0AW6ooDwBg&ved=0CIYBELAE&biw=1024&bih=522

now what was you saying???

and why did they flee,was it because Britain had pulled out?

I was talking about the history of the region in the 1940’s.

Yet you provide links to modern pictures of Hamas.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I can only infer that you concur with my statement that the same terrorist tactics that were used to create the modern state of Israel are the same terrorist tactics used by Hamas.

 

[Dale_M]

Here is some additional information about today’s incident in the buffer zone surrounding Gaza.

It seems Hamas has been telling Gazans that the cease-fire arrangement provided concessions which Israel has not agreed to.

On Thursday, the Israeli defense minister, Ehud Barak, said dismissively that Hamas’s main achievement was getting a document that was typed rather than handwritten. In substance, Israelis said that they agreed only to discuss the border and other issues, but that those talks had not yet begun — and there did not appear even to be a mechanism in place for starting.

But that was clearly not the understanding of the hundreds of Gazans who thought that they would have access to a strip of fertile land that had for years been so tantalizingly close — and yet beyond their reach. Palestinians flocked to the fence Thursday and Friday because their leaders said the cease-fire eased what they call Israel’s “siege” on Gaza, including restrictions on movement in the so-called buffer zone, a 1,000-foot strip on Gaza’s eastern and northern borders.

Hamas leaders said that was but one of the quality-of-life improvements that they had won. They also told their people that Israel would ease the three-mile limit on how far fishermen can venture from the coastline and the passage of people and goods through border crossings.

But an Israeli government official said on Friday that since no further talks had taken place, its policies had not changed.

nytimes.com/2012/11/24/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?ref=global-home&_r=0