Israel 'ready for escalation' of Gaza conflict

[JonNC]

There are dead children on both sides.
Facts.
What do you mean by moral equivalence ?

What I mean is that Israel is not the bad guy here. Hamas is. they are not equally bad, or equally good. Israel is defending herself, which she is permitted to do. There is no moral equivalence here. Hamas is not, by any measure, the moral equivalent to Israel.

Jon

 

[7_Sorrows]

I started a thread on moral clarity regarding the hamas israeli conflict.
It is a very good article for both sides to read. It is in the world news section.

 

[graciew]

What I mean is that Israel is not the bad guy here. Hamas is. they are not equally bad, or equally good. Israel is defending herself, which she is permitted to do. There is no moral equivalence here. Hamas is not, by any measure, the moral equivalent to Israel.

Jon

I understand.
Now where does that permission come from ?

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

What I mean is that Israel is not the bad guy here. Hamas is. they are not equally bad, or equally good. Israel is defending herself, which she is permitted to do. There is no moral equivalence here. Hamas is not, by any measure, the moral equivalent to Israel.

I’d say they are morally equivalent so long as Israel chooses to target their civilian population in response to random acts of violence against Israeli citizens. Israel isn’t defending herself, she’s murdering Palestinian civilians.

 

[gnjsdad]

Israel is defending herself, which she is permitted to do.

There are limits to self defense, which Israel excedes time and time again.

Collective punishment of civilian populations is a war crime.

 

[JonNC]

I’d say they are morally equivalent so long as Israel chooses to target their civilian population in response to random acts of violence against Israeli citizens. Israel isn’t defending herself, she’s murdering Palestinian civilians.

They are not targeting the civilian population. That’s what Hamas does. Israel by phone, by leaflet, regularly warns civilians of impending attacks. Blame Hamas because they hide behind their civilians.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

There are limits to self defense, which Israel excedes time and time again.

Collective punishment of civilian populations is a war crime.

The war crime is hiding soldiers within the civilian population. That’s what Hamas does. They are the war criminals, and cowards to boot.

They have to defend themselves time and again because they are attacked, unprovoked, by Hamas.

Jon

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

They are not targeting the civilian population.

The IDF has targeted the civilian population in every engagement/incursion against Gaza. It is impossible to argue otherwise. The only thing open to debate as far as that is concerned is whether or not it is authorized by the Israeli leadership or they just can’t control the extremist elements in the IDF.

Blame Hamas because they hide behind their civilians.

As opposed to whom?

 

[7_Sorrows]

EmperorNapolean, graciew, gnjsdad. Please read the article I posted on hamas vs. israel- the moral clarity. I would be interested in your thoughts on the article posted on that thread.

 

[graciew]

EmperorNapolean, graciew, gnjsdad. Please read the article I posted on hamas vs. israel- the moral clarity. I would be interested in your thoughts on the article posted on that thread.

I did 7Sorrows.Thank you.

Since you ask,my thoughts are that I do not believe in all- or-nothing identities.
And without getting into the story,nor their intentions,the impact of their choices have deeply affected innocent civilians and children.
I do not want to get into the blame game, I do not wish to buy into a Manichean presentation of their worldview cause it would be oversimplifying a very complex and long dating conflict that the finest of mediators and experts have failed to solve.
And this goes for both parties. Israel and Hamas.
Their stories make sense to THEM,as comprehensible or incomprehensible as they may sound to us. And need to be addressed,if ever they are willing to.
But a ceasefire comes first for me. The rest is just noise and " it’s their fault" arguments that come at too high a cost of human lives.
My only concern is the children trapped between crossfire,whose story I DO WANT them to have a chance to tell.

As for the rest,I appreciate everybody 's (name removed by moderator)ut in this thread cause so far everybody has been respectful and interesting,and I would love to keep asking and learning and sharing as long as we do not get into the who started it game. And I mean this respectfully.

The article added to my learning their perspective,and it differed very little from political propaganda,where each party is kind of perfect. Yet I found it very interesting.

BTW, acknowledging that the story behind a terrorist does make sense to a terrorist,does not make me a terrorist,nor justify terrorism.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Thank you gracie for taking the time to read the article.

If I were a small country surrounded by enemies and received rocket fire from another country I would always be on guard.

I expect a major incident to happen sometime before Israel’s 100th birthday. The Jews have been the target of destruction since time began. They are still here. The fact Israel still stands since it was created after World War II proves God is watching out for it.

I will be happy when innocent people will not die at the hands of terrorists.

 

[graciew]

What I mean is that Israel is not the bad guy here. Hamas is. they are not equally bad, or equally good. Israel is defending herself, which she is permitted to do. There is no moral equivalence here. Hamas is not, by any measure, the moral equivalent to Israel.

Jon

Jon,I replied to you and made a question if you would be willing to answer it. I don’t know the answer.
Where does that permission come from?

This I found in the web page 7 Sorrows provided an article from,it is a Jewish source.
aish.com/atr/Jewish_Leadership.html?catid=907904&tab=y

"This applicability of Torah principles to every place and time has been a key factor in Jewish survival as the “eternal nation.”

Unfortunately, many Jewish and Israeli leaders today do not always give due respect to our biblical heritage, and sometimes foray into delicate national issues without properly considering the Torah perspective. This cuts us off from our greatest source of wisdom and national strength.

We pray that out leaders’ eyes will be illuminated with the light of God and His Torah."

So the question is open to all.
I don’t know the answer.
Are Israeli leaders following the Torah now?

 

[graciew]

The fact Israel still stands since it was created after World War II proves God is watching out for it.

I will be happy when innocent people will not die at the hands of terrorists.

So will I.
I have a question: is God watching out for Israel above other nations? Is this their belief?

 

[freeRadical]

So will I.
I have a question: is God watching out for Israel above other nations? Is this their belief?

The Jews are God’s chosen people are they not? But that doesn’t change the fact that God has punished Israel many times.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

So will I.
I have a question: is God watching out for Israel above other nations? Is this their belief?

Some Christians ( I was talking to a pastor just yesterday) believe that since Israel had that first relationship with God (chosen people) we need to back them up at all times…even when they seem wrong to us

 

[ringil]

What I mean is that Israel is not the bad guy here. Hamas is. they are not equally bad, or equally good. Israel is defending herself, which she is permitted to do. There is no moral equivalence here. Hamas is not, by any measure, the moral equivalent to Israel.

Jon

Israeli actions have created much of the situation they find themselves in. Thus Israel- or Israeli military and social actions can indeed be the “bad guy”, just as terrorism from Hamas is “the bad guy”.

By continuing to believe and push for debate revolving a notion of Israel’s superior moral position- there will never be peace.

The same holds true for the Palestinians.

The problem is not “Good guy vs. Bad guy”. It is a cycle.

 

[graciew]

The Jews are God’s chosen people are they not? But that doesn’t change the fact that God has punished Israel many times.

Thank you.

 

[graciew]

Some Christians ( I was talking to a pastor just yesterday) believe that since Israel had that first relationship with God (chosen people) we need to back them up at all times…even when they seem wrong to us

Thank you.

 

[chefmomster2]

This thread hasn’t been updated in three days, and the death toll in Gaza is now over 100. Tragically, many (though not all) are innocent civilians. Israel is trying to minimize the deaths of civilians, but the very nature of urban conflict makes this difficult. The task is all the more difficult when the fighters in Gaza use civilian facilities to disguise their activities. Israel is feeling pressure to explain its airstrikes in the face of such difficulties.

Thanks for the update! Here are a few more items:

Israel was sending bombs that were relatively light as a warning to residents in buildings Hamas was using as weapon storage. The residents then had time to flee. What did Hamas do? They put the residents on the roofs of the buildings. There they can’t run. Israel can’t avoid killing civilians who are put directly in harm’s way.

Death toll in Gaza is now 190.

Israel voted to ACCEPT the HAMAS cease-fire agreement. HAMAS then rescinded the offer.

 

[GaryTaylor]

And as a result Israel began bombing again and immediately.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fworld%2F2014%2F07%2F15%2Fisrael-cabinet-approves-gaza-cease-fire-egypt-offer%2F&ei=bjLFU6aoEcbN8wHUn4DoBw&usg=AFQjCNGvxbNjY34DefMgHcWzIhB0gHeG0Q&bvm=bv.70810081,d.b2U

Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he was willing to intensify the country’s military campaign against the Islamic militant group following their rejection of the proposed cease-fire.

“If Hamas rejects the Egyptian proposal and the rocket fire from Gaza does not cease, and that appears to be the case, we are prepared to continue and intensify our operation,” Netanyahu said in a statement Tuesday.

I don’t know what it is about this guy Netanyahu but I just like his style.