Israel 'ready for escalation' of Gaza conflict

[Coatimundi]

France’s foreign minister said on Thursday he was extremely worried by an Israeli ground offensive ‎in Gaza and called on Israel to show utmost restraint.
reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-palestinians-israel-invasion-france-idUSKBN0FM2V320140717

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry underscored in a telephone call with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday that “there’s more that can be done” by Israel to avoid civilian casualties and that it must redouble its efforts, Psaki said.
reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-palestinians-israel-usa-idUSKBN0FM2RV20140717

Nicole Johnston, a reporter for al-Jazeera English, is inside Gaza. At around 9 pm she described the ground offensive: “It’s a series of limited [Israeli] incursions. We don’t know whether they intend to expand that… but at this stage it is limited.”
live.aljazeera.com/Event/Gaza_Blog

 

[7_Sorrows]

Emperor Napolean-what do you mean hamas was not firing rockets at civilians? Why were the sirens going off in Israel and people running for cover?

 

[mikekle]

Does anyone else get that feeling that this is only the beginning of problems for Israel? I think if this progresses, we will reach the point where the rest of the world is at Israels doorstep, ready to attack them.

Now that they have mobilized ground forces, I think its only a matter of time before Iran gets involved.

 

[Coatimundi]

Does anyone else get that feeling that this is only the beginning of problems for Israel? I think if this progresses, we will reach the point where the rest of the world is at Israels doorstep, ready to attack them.

Now that they have mobilized ground forces, I think its only a matter of time before Iran gets involved.

The US will not abandon Israel, and that should be enough to keep other countries out. Iran, even if it wanted to get involved, is tied up with Iraq. Hezbollah is committed to Syria. I think diplomatic pressure is what will limit Israel.

Reportedly, the offensive will initially focus on the tunnels which have been used to invade Israel.

In contrast to the Iron Dome missile-defense system that Israel says has stopped some 300 rockets from hitting populated areas over the last 10 days, [Michael B. Oren, Israel’s former ambassador to Washington] said, “We don’t have a response to the tunnels.”

He added, “They are reinforced concrete tunnels, basically impregnable from the air and their openings are camouflaged.”
nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-strip.html

However, previous statements from Israeli officials indicate that the goals of the ground offensive will go far beyond the tunnels. How far may depend on the number of civilian casualties, and the resulting diplomatic fallout.

BTW, Israel shot down a drone near Ashkelon, not far from its border with Gaza, the second unmanned aerial vehicle sent aloft by Gaza this week. The range of weapons which are at the disposal of Hamas and Islamic Jihad have expanded quite a bit over the past couple years.

 

[Seraphim73]

Hamas wasn’t firing rockets at civilians, but Israel blames Hamas for everything that goes wrong and makes all Palestinians suffer for it.

Again an assertion but not a fact. Any news report you see reports that Hamas is firing their relatively inaccurate rockets at population censers. It also fails to account for all of the previous suicide bombings where the bomber targeted a bus or cafe or dance hall. The only possible target of those attacks are civilians. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own set of facts.

Talk about baloney! What Yitzhak Rabin offered was a puppet state with Israel pulling the strings. With Israel annexing more land than it was returning to the Palestinian people, requiring the decisions of the Palestinian government to be subject to Israeli approval, and requiring an unarmed police force to report to the IDF.

What Rabin offered was perfectly reasonable and in my opinion unnecessarily generous. The Olso accords would have lead in time to another (besides Jordan) completely sovreirng Palestinian state. That Arafat responded with suicide bombings speaks volumes. It’s really all you need to know. That’s not even mentioning the other times the Palestinians were offered a state going back to the 40’s.

That just isn’t true and those who do hold that opinion are entitled to their own thoughts. You seem to believe that, aside from dictating where the Palestinians can live and what they can eat, Israel should also be allowed to decide what they can think. Israel, which is far too fond of the stick, creates an environment in which such thought festers and then complains about it.

They are allowed to think what they want but as long as they want the destruction of Israel there will be no move toward peace. Had it not been for the Arab wars of aggression Gaza and the West Bank would have never been under Israeli control. That is entirely the fault of the Arabs. Aslo don’t forget the Israelis are willing to deal for peace. Israel ceased the Sinai and the Golan Heights in legal defensive wars. They everntually traded them for peace. As soon as the Palestinians as a people renounce terror and recognize Israel’s right to exist there will be peace.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I wish someone could explain to me why the anti-israel side is so sure of their stance, but they don’t seem to pay attention to the facts.
The facts seem to go in one ear and out the other.

 

[Seraphim73]

I wish someone could explain to me why the anti-israel side is so sure of their stance, but they don’t seem to pay attention to the facts.
The facts seem to go in one ear and out the other.

Lack of logic or sentimentalism or in some cases outright anti-antisemitism.

 

[Coatimundi]

Prior to launching the ground offensive, Israel dropped leaflets urging Palestinians to flee their homes. The leaflets indicated where people should go for safety.

(Source: New York Times)

 

[Holly3278]

This is really sad. I sincerely hope and pray that Israel and Hamas will have lasting peace soon.

That said, when was the last time that Israel had to do a ground offensive in Gaza? I don’t think they did one the last time there was an armed conflict between the two but I don’t remember for sure.

 

[Coatimundi]

That said, when was the last time that Israel had to do a ground offensive in Gaza? I don’t think they did one the last time there was an armed conflict between the two but I don’t remember for sure.

Operation Cast Lead was the last ground offensive. The ground portion took place in January 2009, so five and a half years ago.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

 

[shockerfan]

This is really sad. I sincerely hope and pray that Israel and Hamas will have lasting peace soon.

Kind of hard for Israel to make peace with an organization whose charter calls for killing Jews.

thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

“Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.”

“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

 

[gnjsdad]

Prior to launching the ground offensive, Israel dropped leaflets urging Palestinians to flee their homes. The leaflets indicated where people should go for safety.

(Source: New York Times)

The leaflets are just propaganda. Tiny Gaza affords no safe place for civilians.

Politically, this Israeli operation will fail. Hamas will prevail in the end. I think, strategically, the Israeli operation is a mistake, based on the false premise that Hamas is a “terrorist” organization. In fact, it is a resistance movement which has support among the population. It won’t matter how many rockets they find and destroy or how many leaders they kill. New ones will arise to take their place. Every action Israel takes in this operation will only strengthen the hold Hamas has over Gaza’s population. That’s why resistance movements are so effective.

The only real chance Israel has if it really wants to put an end to the rocket fire is to begin serious negotiations with Hamas, which has demonstrated in the past a willingness to abide by truces.

 

[Holly3278]

Operation Cast Lead was the last ground offensive. The ground portion took place in January 2009, so five and a half years ago.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

Oh okay. Thank you for the information Coatimundi.

Kind of hard for Israel to make peace with an organization whose charter calls for killing Jews.

thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

“Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.”

“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

Oh I completely agree with you and Israel is completely justified in defending themselves. I just find it sad because I had hoped the conflict would end by now so as to minimize casualties.

 

[JonNC]

=seekerz;12178433]Disproportionate is always relevant, especially when the most recent example of “lack of restraint” which preceded this latest flare-up was directly related to the example we are discussing.

All Hamas has to do is recognize Israel’s right to exist.

The whole thing could have been avoided and wouldn’t have needed a peace agreement, if restraint had been exhibited.

The whole thing could be avoided if Hamas would recognize Israel’s right to exist.

This is not Israel’s first night at the dance: I remember a war against Lebanon launched in response to two soldiers being kidnapped. Their pledge to eradicate Hezbollah ended in much destruction and death (and probably more reactionary growth of Hezbollah).

The difference between Israel and us is that we seemed to have learned from two wars, that be we right or wrong in the reason for waging war, violence is never a lasting solution to violence and it is completely and woefully ineffective in rooting out evil. That is the job of people of stature and patience (as has been seen in the kinds of statesmen who lead us into peace).

Tell that to the Europeans - the French, the Poles, and others - who lived under the Nazi regime.

There must be statesmen on both side. Begin and Sadat, for example. Who are the statesmen in Hamas ready to negotiate from the foundational position that Israel has the right to exist?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hamas wasn’t invited to negotiate a cease-fire and they only found out about it when the media started reporting it. Once again, its just another situation in which Hamas is told to give Israel whatever they want or Israel will bomb their civilian population. The Palestinians have been given the raw deal in every situation since 1948. They should be invited to the table at the very least.

The Palestinians were given a state - Jordan! An invitation to the table? They’ve had it countless times. A two-state solution was on the table. They turned it down.

All Israel want is to be left alone. The issue remains that the bogus claim that Israel return “stolen land” is simply code for all of Israel. Until Hamas recognizes Israel’s right to exist, negotiations are fruitless, and they intentionally and deliberately use their own people as cannon fodder.

Jon

 

[shockerfan]

The leaflets are just propaganda. Tiny Gaza affords no safe place for civilians.

Politically, this Israeli operation will fail. Hamas will prevail in the end. I think, strategically, the Israeli operation is a mistake, based on the false premise that Hamas is a “terrorist” organization. In fact, it is a resistance movement which has support among the population. It won’t matter how many rockets they find and destroy or how many leaders they kill. New ones will arise to take their place. Every action Israel takes in this operation will only strengthen the hold Hamas has over Gaza’s population. That’s why resistance movements are so effective.

The only real chance Israel has if it really wants to put an end to the rocket fire is to begin serious negotiations with Hamas, which has demonstrated in the past a willingness to abide by truces.

How do “serious negotiations” take place with an organization that does not acknowledge Israel’s right to exist?

If you were responsible for the safety of Israel, and the person who you are negotiating with believes you should die, as should all of your citizens, do you trust their words in any negotiation?

 

[gnjsdad]

7 sorrows:

I wish someone could explain to me why the anti-israel side is so sure of their stance, but they don’t seem to pay attention to the facts.
The facts seem to go in one ear and out the other.

seraphim73:

Lack of logic or sentimentalism or in some cases outright anti-antisemitism.

Condescension, insult, and slander aren’t proper for dialogue here. You’ve been given facts about the Palestinian side; you just choose to ignore them.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is headed down a suicidal path of ever-increasing violence. Mention has been made of the relevance of Versailles in this thread. The lesson of Versailles is that punitive measures taken against a beaten down enemy only fuel resentments which result in greater violence down the road. Magnanimity toward a beaten enemy is the way to go toward a chance at peace.

I like these suggestions…

Palestinians in Gaza should be paid billions in reparation for the land and homes they lost in southern Israel in 1947-48.

The ban on Palestinian exports must be lifted.

The ban on importation of building materials must be lifted.

Gaza’s water crisis must be resolved.

Gaza’s electricity generation should be shifted to solar energy with international aid.

 

[Timothysis]

…on the false premise that Hamas is a “terrorist” organization. In fact, it is a resistance movement…

Epic fail.

The only people in the world who agree with you are terrorist states that support terrorism. The evidence of Hamas’ terrorist activities is so vast as to make your statement laughable if it wasn’t so hopelessly ignorant. Who, exactly, are they resisting by supporting the terrorist groups in Syria against the government? You know, the terrorists who are destroying Christian churches and killing ancient Christian communities?

Get a clue.

 

[Tenofovir]

Tell that to the Europeans - the French, the Poles, and others - who lived under the Nazi regime.

In many respects the Soviet regime was worse than living in the German controlled General Government area. And the French had it easy compared to the Poles.

"In comparison with the NKVD, the Gestapo methods are child’s play.”[1] - Gen Leopold Okulicki.

Link.

 

[7_Sorrows]

gnjsdad - what are the facts for the palestinian side?

Maybe if they are ignored it is because they aren’t true?