Issues with "the Rapture"

[BOMC]

Delivers them from what though? Hell? For sure. Pain, torture and death? He let His own Son be murdered, it seems foolish to me that the servants should any fate different from that of their Master.

Further, does it not rain upon the just and the unjust alike?

And who can say they have lived a truly righteous life? Is not, “No one good but God?”

You forgot to mention the trials of Job.

The end time scenario is different, you are asked to be watching, and you will be rewarded or punished for obeying/disobeying that commandment.

 

[BOMC]

This link will explain to everyone from where BOMC is coming:

bomchristian.com/c/

Talk about oxymoronic! or is there a deception here!

Still haven’t gotten a life hugh?

How will that link show “where I am coming from?” The word rapture is never mentioned on that site.

Add to the rapture discussion or leave.

 

[BOMC]

I wouldn’t say “spares” the righteous. I’d say He brings us through tribulations and will ultimately deliver us.

Pixie, this is not everyday life we are speaking about, only the end time scenario.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Pixie, this is not everyday life we are speaking about, only the end time scenario.

Yes, I was talking about at the end of time.

 

[BOMC]

Yes, I was talking about at the end of time.

Which is negated by the fact that those who are obediently watching will be removed before the punishment commences on the disobedient.

 

[ellammcg]

I wouldn’t say “spares” the righteous. I’d say He brings us through tribulations and will ultimately deliver us.

I concur. Some of the most Godly people I know have gone through the greatest tragedies (and of course there are all the apostles et al in the Bible who lived with trials and tribulations and died painful deaths for the cause of Christ). I would say sparing the righteous is referring to sparing them from hell, not sparing them pain on this earth. The innocent pay the price for other’s sins all the time, yet God is still on the throne of heaven. Why should Christians suddenly be immune from tribulation during the end times?

 

[BOMC]

I concur. Some of the most Godly people I know have gone through the greatest tragedies (and of course there are all the apostles et al in the Bible who lived with trials and tribulations and died painful deaths for the cause of Christ). I would say sparing the righteous is referring to sparing them from hell, not sparing them pain on this earth. The innocent pay the price for other’s sins all the time, yet God is still on the throne of heaven. Why should Christians suddenly be immune from tribulation during the end times?

You are confusing the tribulations of life with the wrath of the Apocalypse. Do you know what is different between the two?

 

[losh14]

My summary was meant to be high-level, so if I left out details it wasn’t out of disbelief but rather to provide a starting point from which we can see differences. The Resurrection of humanity is implicit within the return of the Saints, ie those who have died in faithful obedience and who are brought back in their glorified bodies in the parousia. Sorry I didn’t make that clear. Those who live through the Tribulation will of course retain their own bodies.

By plagues do you mean the opening of the seals starting in Rev. 6 or the bowls of wrath starting in Rev 16?

I think you’ve stated the crux of the disagreement here:

Which is negated by the fact that those who are obediently watching will be removed before the punishment commences on the disobedient.

When the End begins, those Christians who are alive will remain alive and not taken away from the earth. Forgive the marketing speak (that’s my profession) but let’s segment all humanity into groups present at the Judgement:

• The righteous alive - those who persevere with faith are welcomed into Heaven.
• The righteous dead - those who have died in faith and are resurrected with Christ in the parousia
• The wicked dead - those who rejected Christ in their lives and are condemned at their deaths to Hell
• The wicked alive - those who fought alongside Satan and against the Lord, and are similarly thrown into the Lake of Fire

The first two will ultimately see Heaven (the dead see it first because, well, they died first), the last two will ultimately see Hell (the dead first because they died first). This does not speak to a pre-judgment or a pre-destination but rather to a pre-knowledge on the part of God. We have freedom to choose Heaven or Hell (by choosing or rejecting Christ). God cannot mandate nor assign, but He knows what we will do because He is omniscient. He knows our choices but does not assign them.

 

[losh14]

You are confusing the tribulations of life with the wrath of the Apocalypse. Do you know what is different between the two?

It’s your turn, BOMC. What is your evidence that Christians will be removed from the earth prior to the start of the Tribulation.

 

[BOMC]

The Resurrection…

Of course. For the sake of the readers, it is good to include that, thanks.

By plagues do you mean the opening of the seals starting in Rev. 6 or the bowls of wrath starting in Rev 16?

If you look at those you will notice they are one and the same. The answer is yes.

I think you’ve stated the crux of the disagreement here…When the End begins, those Christians who are alive will remain alive and not taken away from the earth.

That’s not what it says. Incidentally, do you believe the righteous will ever be taken up, or will they remain on earth?

let’s segment all humanity into groups present at the Judgement.

What judgment are you referring to?

 

[a_burger]

Not to worrie I am a Catholic and I do believe in the Rapture again I say to Read your Bible.

 

[a_burger]

I am apostolic Catholic and I believe there is more evidence for the raptue than against it. I am always amazed at the experts who never studied anything, yet they are experts. The person who said Darby started the rapture theory in the 18th century. Try to google Ephraem the Syrian. He was the most respected Catholic Syrian of his time. In the 3rd century he said the Lord would rescue from the confusion. You can find this from a gentleman named Chuck Missler. As Catholics you need to stop listening to Pat Robertson and study.

 

[BOMC]

I want to address the strawman, that if you believe in the rapture, you believe Jesus is coming two or three times instead of one.

Does everyone have an understanding of where their future is? It is the Holy City isn’t it? The place where Jesus said he would “prepare a place for you, then I will return.”

Where is that? Heaven is such a general term, which is fine, except for when we are talking about the rapture.

In the Apocalypse it refers to the New Jerusalem descending from heaven - that is where the raptured/resurrected will go.

What is being missed is the fact that it will arrive and be in our skies before coming down on the earth.

Michael also has things to do before Jesus appears, as also the 7 angels.

In other words, a lot will happen while Jesus is there in the New Jerusalem, in our sky over head, but before he appears.

One coming - period.

 

[BOMC]

The second strawman I want to address is the belief that if all the Christians were raptured, who would be left to spread the gospel?

Simple: The five unwise virgins who were not watching or waiting. They will still be around to answer questions, repent themselves, and show forth fruits of repentance.

The environment described in the Apocalypse however leads one to believe very few will repent.

 

[CWBetts]

The second strawman I want to address is the belief that if all the Christians were raptured, who would be left to spread the gospel?

Simple: The five unwise virgins who were not watching or waiting. They will still be around to answer questions, repent themselves, and show forth fruits of repentance.

The environment described in the Apocalypse however leads one to believe very few will repent.

What about the simple fact that the Rapture is from the imagination of Darby?

 

[BOMC]

To remove confusion over the meaning of the “tribulation,” I suggest people use the word “wrath” instead, as that is he word used in the Revelation of John; is what God will pour out on the unfaithful; and deliver the faithful from.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6)

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Revelation 16)

.

 

[CWBetts]

To remove confusion over the meaning of the “tribulation,” I suggest people use the word “wrath” instead, as that is he word used in the Revelation of John; is what God will pour out on the unfaithful; and deliver the faithful from.

The 7 year period to which you refer will be visited on the just and the unjust. God will not spare us, because simply put, all of us deserve his wrath. No one deserves to be spared.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

What about the simple fact that the Rapture is from the imagination of Darby?

Not to mention the stark lack of evidence with regarding the signs many Rapture believers put so much stock into.

 

[BOMC]

What about the simple fact that the Rapture is from the imagination of Darby?

Proof: A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

 

[CWBetts]

Proof: A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

what?