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losh14
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That believers who are alive will be spared from being on earth at the time that God pours out His Wrath.
Our disagreement is one of when.
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Our disagreement is one of when.
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losh14
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I’m going to say I respect you, a burger, because I do and because there’s not 100% agreement on this among all Catholic scholars. I did some looking last night, and Ephraim (whom you mention) and Jerome (author of the Vulgate) disagree, and both ideas have seemed to continue throughout history but Ephraim’s has definitely been the second fiddle to Jerome’s.
Partly, Jerome’s commentary on Daniel is just astounding. I mean, it’s first-rate scholarship. It helps that he influenced Augustine substantially and Augustine spread ideas like few others in church history.
After listening to an interesting show by Jimmy Akin (look under Radio Archives for “Rapture” - it’s Jimmy’s earliest show) and reading through a few writings, it seems that the Catholic teaching is against the idea of a pre-trib rapture, but otherwise it’s not dogmatically defined. What this means is that we are free to believe in a rapture to the extent that it means Jesus is coming to save us provided the when is not prior to the Tribulation.
And that when has huge implications. I’m actually picqued enough that I’d like to find (once I have time) a good study guide to Revelation and Scripture prophecy. Revelation is not an easy book to read.
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losh14
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I know the man’s suspended, and I wouldn’t kick him while he’s down but he’s still not listening to us.
Part of that knowing is knowing God’s love and how He works.
Careful here. Knowing God’s love (ie, receiving it) is not the same as knowing God’s mind (comprehending Him). Creatures can receive what the Creator gives, not find equality with the Creator.
That He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. According to you both, you expect no reward at His coming, but to be treated as the ungodly.
Now I understand you a little more - you see the Rapture as the time when the faithful will enter Heaven, and everything after that is God’s vivid punishment. We see the reward (life in Heaven) as coming later, after the Judgement still to come. Remembering from a prior post of yours, is it correct to say that you assert that the pouring of wrath is the beginning of God’s Judgement and so salvation means leaving the earth before the Judgement? We see the Judgement as being separate from the Rapture - and I think most pre-Trib Rapture believers would also agree that the Raptured will not go before the Judgement seat until after God has finished pouring out His Wrath (since He won’t judge the fallen until they are defeated).
Also, you’re delving into soteriology without warrant. Is belief in pre-Trib Rapture a requirement for salvation? If so, prove it. If not - if one can believe the entirety of the Gospel with the exception of a pre-Trib Rapture and still be saved - then we’re all surprised when Christ takes us bodily prior to the Tribulation. Remember none of us are doubting that Christ will save us from going to Hell - we’re disagreeing over when He will do it.
We’ve both accused the other of adding things that weren’t there before. Can you prove that the words sealed up in Daniel 12:4 were uniquely the Rapture teaching? Otherwise, we’re at an impasse. You say the Rapture teaching was always there and it is our tradition that refuses to see it. We say that the Rapture teaching (specifically pre-trib Rapture) is new (ie, even Ephraim was preterist except for the Rapture teaching) and is therefore a tradition solely of men since it is otherwise without precedent.
Part of that knowing is knowing God’s love and how He works.
Careful here. Knowing God’s love (ie, receiving it) is not the same as knowing God’s mind (comprehending Him). Creatures can receive what the Creator gives, not find equality with the Creator.
That He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. According to you both, you expect no reward at His coming, but to be treated as the ungodly.
Now I understand you a little more - you see the Rapture as the time when the faithful will enter Heaven, and everything after that is God’s vivid punishment. We see the reward (life in Heaven) as coming later, after the Judgement still to come. Remembering from a prior post of yours, is it correct to say that you assert that the pouring of wrath is the beginning of God’s Judgement and so salvation means leaving the earth before the Judgement? We see the Judgement as being separate from the Rapture - and I think most pre-Trib Rapture believers would also agree that the Raptured will not go before the Judgement seat until after God has finished pouring out His Wrath (since He won’t judge the fallen until they are defeated).
Also, you’re delving into soteriology without warrant. Is belief in pre-Trib Rapture a requirement for salvation? If so, prove it. If not - if one can believe the entirety of the Gospel with the exception of a pre-Trib Rapture and still be saved - then we’re all surprised when Christ takes us bodily prior to the Tribulation. Remember none of us are doubting that Christ will save us from going to Hell - we’re disagreeing over when He will do it.
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losh14
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I think that’s where the disagreement lay. We call something different the Rapture. Jimmy Akin says he believes in it and then explains that the Church’s position is basically post-Trib Rapture or Amillenialism, while the popular notion of Rapture is pre-Trib.
I don’t think BOMC’s concept falls anywhere within, but he’s suspended for now.
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losh14
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Absolutely. Timing is the critical issue. If a Catholic believes in a Rapture, he or she believes in what Protestants would call post-Trib. Other Catholics don’t use the word but still say they believe Jesus will have a Second Coming. Rapture isn’t a disagreement over the Second Coming itself but over the timing of the Second Coming.
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losh14
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Let’s define Rapture such that it means all Christians will be taken away by Jesus prior to the End Times. This is either the truth or it is an error.
Assume the Rapture as defined above is true:
If it is the truth, then teaching it is correct.
It if it the truth, then teaching some other timing is an error but does it cause harm?
For those who die before the Rapture, it is irrelevant. They will be judged on faith and how they lived their faith, not on how they do on an essay test of Scriptural exegesis.
For those who are alive and are Raptured, they are surprised at being wrong but definitely delighted, perhaps apologetic, and no harm done.
Assume the Rapture as defined above is false:
If it is false, then teaching against it is correct.
If it is false, then teaching in favor of it can lead support some serious theological errors:
Lastly, when the Tribulation begins, there will be two kinds of Christians:
Assume the Rapture as defined above is true:
If it is the truth, then teaching it is correct.
It if it the truth, then teaching some other timing is an error but does it cause harm?
For those who die before the Rapture, it is irrelevant. They will be judged on faith and how they lived their faith, not on how they do on an essay test of Scriptural exegesis.
For those who are alive and are Raptured, they are surprised at being wrong but definitely delighted, perhaps apologetic, and no harm done.
Assume the Rapture as defined above is false:
If it is false, then teaching against it is correct.
If it is false, then teaching in favor of it can lead support some serious theological errors:
- That God wants Christians to have easy lives
- That there will be a definitive end date prior to the actual End
- That the period of suffering by Christians has already ended
- That there will be signs of the Rapture (and people will naturally look for these despite Jesus’ warning not to)
Lastly, when the Tribulation begins, there will be two kinds of Christians:
- Those who thought they would be Raptured
- Those who knew the Rapture was yet to happen
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Pixie_Dust
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Not only that, but it seems that the alleged “rapture” found is not actually by the Ephraim, but a Pseudo-Ephraim. Someone used his name hoping to give more weight to his epistle by claiming to have apostolic authority, when he didn’t actually have any authority at all.
Bingo.
Coming Soon by Michael Barber. It’s excellent.
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SHW
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It is not dogmatically defined because it is not necessary to do so. It really is not hard to figure out using Scripture and also knowing that the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Catholic Latin Vulgate that was written in 390 A.D. It comes from 1 Thessalonians 4:17 “we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur].
Catholics believe that when Jesus returns at His Second Coming, that those Christians who are still alive on earth will meet Jesus in the air at this time, and that their bodies will be instantly changed from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and** the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed**. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
These two Scriptures are about the same event and it happens at Jesus’ Second Coming at the end of “time” on Judgment Day at the sound of the trumpet (Matthew 25:31-32, 2 Timothy 4:8). The trumpet sounds when it heralds Jesus’ Second Coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-26 “For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.”
Jesus destroys death for everyone at His Second and final Coming when we meet him (are caught up) in the air and we will change from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible.
Hebrews 9:27-28 “Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.”
Notice that Jesus only appears a “second time” for our salvation. He does not come to take us out before the tribulation. He comes to get us after the tribulation. He does not appear three times. He only appears two times, the first time 2000 years ago in order to die for our sins, and He will come a second time to immortalize us (defeat death forever). Then comes the end, and after that the Judgment of every person who has ever lived.
Acts 14:22 “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
2 Corinthians 6:4-7 “But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, 5 in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; 6 by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, 7 by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,”
Catholics do not believe that Jesus will come and take His Church out before the tribulation of Antichrist. It is not Biblical. We all must suffer the tribulations that God sends us and remain faithful to Him until death in order to enter the kingdom of God.
Pax,
SHW
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CWBetts
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In my orginal post I should have clarified what I menat by “Rapture” which has been done now by another poster, which is that at the Second Coming of our Lord, it will be AFTER the Tribulation.
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losh14
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Definitions are always key when discussing the mental constructs we place around Scripture. If only it were truly self-perspicuous.
If you dont’ hear from me for a while, say a prayer of thanks for a good birth
I’m to be a daddy on Thursday.
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MarysGirls
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Definitions are always key when discussing the mental constructs we place around Scripture. If only it were truly self-perspicuous.Yeah, thanks for the info. Mabye now there will be less confusion.
If you dont’ hear from me for a while, say a prayer of thanks for a good birth
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scottywolf777
Guest
To MarysGirls: Mazel Tov! as my Jewish friends would say.
anyway one scripture missed above which I was encouraged back during those Jesus freak days in the last century to memorise (not a totally bad thing to do as long as you know the context etc) was II Timothy 3:12 which says in KJV “all ye who will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” That doesn’t seem to suggest that we’re going to get out of anything does it? It actually seems to say just the opposite if we follow Jesus we WILL find trouble.
An interesting side bar here is there’s a protestant fellow that has written a book in which he postulates that the Book of Revelation or the Apocalypse for some of us older folks is really a coded message telling the early Christians to meet at a certain spot on a certain day and Jesus would then return. He hasn’t because we didn’t figure out the clues (like the conversation in th 4th Harry Potter book where Ron tries to warn Harry about the dragons by giving him this bizarre tenth hand message that Haggrid wants to see him)
As far as the book of Revelations is concerned I sometimes wonder if anybody really understands it. I really haven’t opened it much since returning to the church. I remember reading somewhere that it barely passed at the council of Calcedon (wasn’t that the one where the church decided the canon?) by one vote at the end of the day. Certainly in the wrong hands it can be a dangerous book. I imagine that one did lead to a rather heated discussion.
By the way, back when I worked RCIA on the feast of the Assumption our DRE decided that we should go ahead and dismiss the candidates and catechumans and for the sposors and teams to stay behind and finish the mass. I arrived first over at the parish centre to find the group quiet and looking alot like this guy:
The first reading was Rev. 12 and the group including a former seminarian at Iliff Seminary in Denver (Protestant) got lost on that one on their own. i pulled out my Miracluos medal and gave them a quick exegesis on the passage using the symbols on the medal.
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SHW
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I will pray for a safe and happy delivery for Mother and Child! Congratulations!Definitions are always key when discussing the mental constructs we place around Scripture. If only it were truly self-perspicuous.
If you dont’ hear from me for a while, say a prayer of thanks for a good birth
Pax,
SHW
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MarysGirls
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losh14
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Mazel Tov means good day in Hebrew.
The two main things I learned about Hebrew from my Jewish friends were the Shabbat prayers and how to cuss convincingly.
The two main things I learned about Hebrew from my Jewish friends were the Shabbat prayers and how to cuss convincingly.
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MarysGirls
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Hmm, you could probably do without the cussing. 
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scottywolf777
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Beyond the literal meaning MazelTov is speaking a word of blessing on you and telling you it is a good day. MazelTov is used for toasts and for joyous occasions. it is like when Native Americans or Klingons say “today is a good day to die” which is not meant literally either but is a sign of rejoicing in the goodness God has given you.Hmm, you could probably do without the cussing.
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Appleby
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I can always count on my new Catholic bretheren and sisterns to jeer and sneer at other peoples beliefs – it must be truly wonderful to be so all-knowing that you can look down on people less perfect in knowledge than you are.
I look forward to the day when I too have knowledge that even Jesus did not have, and can sit up on my throne and jeer at the poor fools below who are so stupid and delusional.
Being more humble and less perfect in my knowledge than you are, I will continue to read and study and meanwhile trust that when the time comes, we will all find out together.
Hubris is a sin, is it not?
I look forward to the day when I too have knowledge that even Jesus did not have, and can sit up on my throne and jeer at the poor fools below who are so stupid and delusional.
Being more humble and less perfect in my knowledge than you are, I will continue to read and study and meanwhile trust that when the time comes, we will all find out together.
Hubris is a sin, is it not?
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CWBetts
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Pointing out false teaching is not “hubris.” We do know that the Lord wil have a second coming, but not a third. To say “you can believe waht you want, it really doesn’t matter” isn’t humility. It’s apathy.
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Orthodox1047
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