Issues with "the Rapture"

[losh14]

I can always count on my new Catholic bretheren and sisterns to jeer and sneer at other peoples beliefs – it must be truly wonderful to be so all-knowing that you can look down on people less perfect in knowledge than you are.

Your point is well-taken. There is a difference between correction (or even rebuke) and jeering and sneering at others’ beliefs. We are certainly commanded to defend the faith (1 Pt 3:15) and to be patient in correction (2 Tim 4:2). If we have offended you, I apologize for the offense but I hope you do not look upon the manner in which the information is given as reflecting poorly on the information itself.

Some doctrines are so convincing despite their flaws that we must be rigorous in disproving them. This isn’t about sneering at others’ beliefs, but rather about combatting a doctrine that has sent Catholics out of the Church and caused non-Catholics to hope for things which they should not hope for, namely to know the time and place of the Lord’s Second Coming.

 

[MarysGirls]

Beyond the literal meaning MazelTov is speaking a word of blessing on you and telling you it is a good day. MazelTov is used for toasts and for joyous occasions. it is like when Native Americans or Klingons say “today is a good day to die” which is not meant literally either but is a sign of rejoicing in the goodness God has given you.

oh okay… lol, thanks and the same to you!

 

[SHW]

I can always count on my new Catholic bretheren and sisterns to jeer and sneer at other peoples beliefs – it must be truly wonderful to be so all-knowing that you can look down on people less perfect in knowledge than you are.

I look forward to the day when I too have knowledge that even Jesus did not have, and can sit up on my throne and jeer at the poor fools below who are so stupid and delusional.

Being more humble and less perfect in my knowledge than you are, I will continue to read and study and meanwhile trust that when the time comes, we will all find out together.

Hubris is a sin, is it not?

Hi Appleby,

We Catholics are all here at Catholic Answers Forum in order to learn. I have had some of my mistaken views corrected but I do not see this as them “jeering and sneering” at me. I am grateful that I was corrected so that I will not mislead others.

Pax,
SHW

 

[losh14]

it is like when Native Americans or Klingons say “today is a good day to die” which is not meant literally either but is a sign of rejoicing in the goodness God has given you.

Sad fact - there are more speakers of Klingon than of Navajo.

theonion.com/content/node/29426

 

[7speed]

Every time I come back here I am reminded of why I gave up these silly OLD superstitions.
The bible is a mess.
Paul was most likely insane.
There are no eyewitness accounts in the NT.
Lost ,redacted,removed books make a poor history.
I don’t even want to go into the 1700 years of terror and abuse that has been the RCC.

 

[SHW]

Every time I come back here I am reminded of why I gave up these silly OLD superstitions.
The bible is a mess.
Paul was most likely insane.
There are no eyewitness accounts in the NT.
Lost ,redacted,removed books make a poor history.
I don’t even want to go into the 1700 years of terror and abuse that has been the RCC.

Why come back? You certainly don’t intend to learn anything. Your comment such as “1700 years of terror and abuse that has been the RCC” proves this very fact.

Please leave since you are not interested in truth.

Pax,
SHW

 

[a_burger]

The second strawman I want to address is the belief that if all the Christians were raptured, who would be left to spread the gospel?

Simple: The five unwise virgins who were not watching or waiting. They will still be around to answer questions, repent themselves, and show forth fruits of repentance.

The environment described in the Apocalypse however leads one to believe very few will repent.

 

[a_burger]

a_burger:
You should know who will spread the Gospel after the Rapture. The seven years of Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel. The 144,000 Jews will spread the Gospel. Sorry JW’s it’s not you. READ YOUR BIBLE! STOP GUESSING!

 

[7speed]

Why come back?To inform the ignorant.
Critical biblical theory is the norm .
There is no eye witness accounts in NT.
It is all second hand.
Show me extra-bible source for Jesus

 

[CWBetts]

Why come back?To inform the ignorant.
Critical biblical theory is the norm .
There is no eye witness accounts in NT.
It is all second hand.
Show me extra-bible source for Jesus

Josephus. Acts, Matthew, and John are first-hand accounts. It is the atheist who is the truly ignorant.
What’s more, id that assuming that you are right, and Jesus was not the Son of God, why would there be extra-Biblical accounts? He was yet another Jewish rabble-rouser who was executed for insurrection. Hardly noteworthy. The lack of details of a commonors life from two millenia ago is not evidence that they did not exist. If that were so, then the Roman empire would be devoid of anyone not of the senatorial classes!

 

[losh14]

I don’t even want to go into the 1700 years of terror and abuse that has been the RCC.

What about the thousands of years of nasty and brutish life prior to Christ’s First Coming?
In all truth, would the world be as good as it is today without the Catholic Church?
Would we have universities and take education as a serious responsibility to our children?
Would we have even an attempt at an organized system of caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless and the ill?
Would we have free societies without entrenched slavery?

I know that members of the Catholic Church have done terrible things - and I shudder to think of their punishments in the life to come. But can you honestly say that you think the world would have been better off without it?

 

[losh14]

Why come back? …
Please leave since you are not interested in truth.

Let him stay, please. If this person feels wounded by the faith, a show of charity and truth would perhaps help him.

 

[losh14]

You should know who will spread the Gospel after the Rapture. The seven years of Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel. The 144,000 Jews will spread the Gospel. Sorry JW’s it’s not you. READ YOUR BIBLE! STOP GUESSING!

Not to refute, but I’m looking to understand your point.
First, what about the two witnesses (Rev 11)? I think these are very specifically-shown as spreading the Gospel.

Second, I understand the 144,000 as being symbolic of those who survive the tribulation and are sealed before the final destruction of Earth and completion of the New Earth. Here’s my reasoning:

The 144,000 in Rev 7:4-17, they are described as “the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” and they are described as “before the throne of God; and they will serve Him day and night in His temple”. Moreover they will “hunger no more, nor thirst anymore.” This makes me think that these 144,000 are in a state of being removed from the earth already. If they have survived the tribulation, they are in a glorified state. If they have died, they are resurrected, but either way their serving God makes them removed from ministry on earth.

The 144,000 I take to be symbolic rather than literal. 12x12x1000. The 1000 meaning “many” as in “cattle on a thousand hills” (Ps. 50:10). Twelve is the number of perfection - 3 being the number of the Trinity and four being the number of the earth, twelve is their product and represents humans glorified. Twelve also represents the tribes of Israel. So this 144,000 represents God’s called nation, His people, glorified.

I think part of our difference in understanding is that I see Revelation as not being chronological. Do you take it to be chronological?

Forgive my inquiry, I’m curious and wish to understand you more.

 

[MarysGirls]

Forgive my inquiry, I’m curious and wish to understand you more.

Wow. After coming back from heated arguments on other threads, that was refreshing.

 

[MarysGirls]

Let him stay, please. If this person feels wounded by the faith, a show of charity and truth would perhaps help him.

I was about to agree, but on second thought, perhaps he and anyone who wishes to converse with him (myself included) should move to a different thread since this one is supposed to be about the rapture…

 

[SHW]

Let him stay, please. If this person feels wounded by the faith, a show of charity and truth would perhaps help him.

I am willing to have persons here who are charitable. If he/she can keep a civil keyboard, then welcome. Otherwise, he can take his keyboard elsewhere. Because he chooses to post incendiary comments, he is what we call a troll and trolls are not welcome at Catholic Answers Forum.

Pax,
SHW

 

[7speed]

Yes,the truth can be incendiary.
But,the real reason I am so hostile is that I was not molested when i was an alter boy.
I feel some how slighted.I was cute at that age!

oh well,

 

[a_burger]

(Edited)

People thinking for themselves apart from the Authoritative teaching of the Church founded by Christ and guarded by the Holy Spirit from teaching error is why we now have thousands of belief systems with conflicting and contradictory doctrines, instead of being ONE as Jesus prayed we would be.

The rapture’s earliest beginnings were in the third century by a 3rd century Cathollic known as Ephraem the Syrian. The OT even refers to the taking out of God’s people. The Tribulation period is God’s wrath. The church is the bride. Why would Christ subject his bride to wrath? If you can answer that I will stop considering the instant rapture a probability. Please explain why the church itself has gone against its own original teaching.

 

[Orthodox1047]

Yes,the truth can be incendiary.
But,the real reason I am so hostile is that I was not molested when i was an alter boy.
I feel some how slighted.I was cute at that age!

oh well,

The word is Altar Boy and you are no longer cute, but that is no reason for hostility. I too was an Altar Boy and never had a problem. I also left the Faith while in my rebellious stage however after years of seeking the Truth I returned happily to the Catholic Church. I never felt the need to disparage anyone or anything during my rebellion. I suggest for your own peace of mind that you consider an honest effort to seek the Truth and refrain from negativity. May I suggest that you just say these words and let Jesus do the rest: “Jesus bring me Home - I place my trust in Thee!”?

Pax Vobiscum

 

[Pixie_Dust]

The rapture’s earliest beginnings were in the third century by a 3rd century Cathollic known as Ephraem the Syrian.

Actually, it was “Pseudo-Ephraem” - someone was using his name to give his letter apostolic authority.

A few of the ECFs wrote about a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. However, this kingdom wasn’t accompanied by a rapture of believers, it occurred before the last day. This position was never adopted as an official teaching of the Church as a whole. A literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth had mostly been rejected by the end of the 4th century.

Teaching on the Rapture first appeared in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. It gained popularity by the efforts of John Darby. He preached the Rapture in England, the US and Canada between 1850-1870 to people of thousands of different Protestant denominations, so most of the current teaching on the Rapture can be traced back to only about 150 years ago. There is one obscure writing by someone whose pen name was Pseudo-Ephraem; which has a passage that seems to refer to a pre-Trib rapture, dating approximately from 4th-5th century, and the author’s real name is unknown. Rapture enthusiasts will point to this ONE passage and say, “See! The Early Church believed in a Pre-Trib Rapture!”

The problem is: The exact meaning of the passage is open to dispute since 1) there is no mention of Christ coming in Glory, 2) St Ephraim, upon whose writings Pseudo-Ephraem is supposedly based, did NOT believe in a pre-Trib rapture; and 3) if you take ONE obscure passage from the 4th or 5th century to prove an Early Christian belief in the Rapture, then why don’t you believe ALL the Early Church Fathers who wrote about:

* the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
* the authority of the Bishop of Rome?
* baptism as the real washing away of sin?

The OT even refers to the taking out of God’s people. The Tribulation period is God’s wrath. The church is the bride. Why would Christ subject his bride to wrath? If you can answer that I will stop considering the instant rapture a probability. Please explain why the church itself has gone against its own original teaching.

One obscure ECF passage does not Church Teaching make. Please read this:

The Rapture and the Bible