Italian writer stirs a hornet’s nest with doubts about Pope Francis

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I did. It is the framework of belifs through which an individual or a society perceives the wide world. It orientates and defines your values.
Briefly , a lens through which you perceive the individual , society etc.
Capitalism can be considered a worldview.
Whereas from.a Christian perspective some things might help the common good , some others may not.
The Pope did not speak about capitalism.directly as far as I can rember ,but about excesses .
My point is that we have our own " framework" as I posted.
Is that clear now ?

Capitalism is compatible with Christianity. There is no conflict.

How about this, " do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a worldview?

Capitalism is freedom. It is the understanding that each man has dignity and that he is not the property of another man. Socialism claims ownership of a man and his work. Socialism is incompatible with Christianity.

 

[LongingSoul]

Capitalism is compatible with Christianity. There is no conflict.

How about this, " do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a worldview?

Capitalism is freedom. It is the understanding that each man has dignity and that he is not the property of another man. Socialism claims ownership of a man and his work. Socialism is incompatible with Christianity.

If the principles of Capitalism don’t conform to the ‘common good’ as an end, then it will inevitably conform to survival of the fittest and is equally as sick as socialism in an environment that doesn’t value the basic dignity of the human person.

 

[dmar198]

Pope Francis:

While the income of a minority is increasing exponentially, that of the majority is crumbling. This imbalance results from ideologies which uphold the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation, and thus deny the right of control to States, which are themselves charged with providing for the common good. (5/16/13)

Pope Benedict said almost the same thing:

[There are]
growing instances of inequality between rich and poor, [caused] by the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism. source

Pope Francis:

Rampant capitalism has taught the logic of profit at all costs, of giving to get, of exploitation without looking at the person… (5/21/13)

Pope Benedict said almost the same thing:
Pope Benedict:

the logic of profit, if dominant, increases the disproportion between the rich and the poor and brings a ruinous exploitation of the planet. source

…these things become the norm: that some homeless people die of cold on the streets is not news. In contrast, a ten point drop on the stock markets of some cities, is a tragedy. A person dying is not news, but if the stock markets drop ten points it is a tragedy! Thus people are disposed of, as if they were trash. (6/5/13, Environment)

Pope Benedict also criticized how a selfish profit-seeking mentality leads to people being disposed of:
Pope Benedict:

Poverty, underdevelopment and, therefore, hunger are often the result of selfish behaviors that, born in the human heart, manifest themselves in social life, economic exchange, in market conditions and in the lack of access to food. … How can we be silent about the fact that even food has become the object of speculation or is tied to the course of a financial market that, lacking definite rules and poor in moral principles, appears anchored to the sole objective of profit? source

Pope Francis:

It is a well-known fact that current levels of production are sufficient, yet millions of people are still suffering and dying of starvation. This, dear friends is truly scandalous. A way has to be found to enable everyone to benefit from the fruits of the earth, and not simply to close the gap between the affluent and those who must be satisfied with the crumbs falling from the table, but above all to satisfy the demands of justice, fairness and respect for every human being. (6/20/13)

Pope Benedict also said there is plenty of food, and that we need to create international institutions to spread this food:
Pope Benedict:

Hunger is not so much dependent on lack of material things as on shortage of social resources, the most important of which are institutional. What is missing, in other words, is a network of economic institutions capable of guaranteeing regular access to sufficient food and water for nutritional needs, and also capable of addressing the primary needs and necessities ensuing from genuine food crises, whether due to natural causes or political irresponsibility, nationally and internationally. source

Therefore, where is the big difference between Benedict and Francis? It seems to me that they talked about the exact same things, and mostly used the same language to talk about it. Anyway, that’s what I think. What do you think? Do you have quotes where you think they differ about global warming or about the role of the government or about other things? Because I don’t think they really do differ, I think that’s just a media-created perception.

 

[PTL]

I honestly think Pope Francis is every bit as traditional as Pope Emeritus Benedict was…

I honestly hope what you think is true…

 

[georget]

You may fight for abortion not to be legal…but where are all these future babies going to live if we are killing the planet?

.
I’m willing to give it go, maybe one of them will answer your questions.

 

[georget]

Global warming is not a “leftist” issue, it is an issue for everyone who lives on this planet and for those who will live here in the future, be they left, right, middle, up, or down.

The Pope obviously cares about this planet and knows his environmental facts.
Why should that embarrass you?
You should be proud of him.

Just because he cares about the future of this planet, it doesn’t mean he’s influenced by the “left”. Don’t conservatives or people on the “right” care about the environment, too?

Taking care of the future of human beings is a matter of “faith and morals”.

You may fight for abortion not to be legal…but where are all these future babies going to live if we are killing the planet?

.

Hey, I’m willing to give it go, maybe one of them will have the answer.

 

[graciew]

Capitalism is compatible with Christianity. There is no conflict.

How about this, " do unto others as you would have them do unto you" as a worldview?

Capitalism is freedom. It is the understanding that each man has dignity and that he is not the property of another man. .

Excuse my typing mistakes among others. Signal comes.and goes and this cel screen is very small…
The perspective you describe and this principle " do onto others…" is already a big challenge and it does tell me a lot about you though maybe not so much about capitalism , but you and I can improve ourselves and our little world around us so I think that principle is quite enough to start with !

 

[dmar198]

Capitalism is freedom. It is the understanding that each man has dignity and that he is not the property of another man.

Here is how your namesake, Chesterton, defined capitalism: That economic condition in which there is a class of capitalists, roughly recognizable and relatively small, in whose possession so much of the capital is concentrated as to necessitate a very large majority of the citizens serving those capitalists for a wage.

Does that sound like freedom?

 

[FollowChrist34]

Here is how your namesake, Chesterton, defined capitalism: That economic condition in which there is a class of capitalists, roughly recognizable and relatively small, in whose possession so much of the capital is concentrated as to necessitate a very large majority of the citizens serving those capitalists for a wage.

Does that sound like freedom?

I wondered if someone was going to point that out…

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Here is how your namesake, Chesterton, defined capitalism: That economic condition in which there is a class of capitalists, roughly recognizable and relatively small, in whose possession so much of the capital is concentrated as to necessitate a very large majority of the citizens serving those capitalists for a wage.

Does that sound like freedom?/QUOTE

I love Chesterton, but he did not understand capitalism.

What he describes is oligarchy.

 

[ProVobis]

cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
noun: capitalism

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
synonyms:	free enterprise, private enterprise, the free market;
enterprise culture
"the capitalism of emerging nations"

---

According to this definition, the U.S. is far from being a capitalist nation.

 

[openmind77]

dmar198;12627844:

Here is how your namesake, Chesterton, defined capitalism: That economic condition in which there is a class of capitalists, roughly recognizable and relatively small, in whose possession so much of the capital is concentrated as to necessitate a very large majority of the citizens serving those capitalists for a wage.

Does that sound like freedom?

Oligarchy is what Russia has today. It is quite compatible with capitalism.

Most of the South American dictators (except Castro) including fascists like Hitler and Mussolini were capitalists.

Capitalism is not equal to freedom - true democracy is equal to freedom.

 

[Good_Tidings]

Exactly. I cannot understand why John Allen would write an article of this sort, nor why Gilliam would think it was a good idea to begin a thread on it. Is it true that anything goes, provided it is a news article, even a shoddy one?

I have noticed that Gilliam posts articles that are current. He appears to be well read.

 

[Path_Finder]

Now from the Crux, round 2:

Catholic liberals in Italy launch petition to back Pope Francis

cruxnow.com/church/2015/01/03/catholic-liberals-in-italy-launch-petition-to-back-pope-francis/

Amid a robust Italian debate over the leadership of Pope Francis, a cross-section of liberal Catholic groups in the country has launched an online petition to show backing for the Argentinian pontiff.

Pointedly called “Stop the Attacks on Pope Francis,” the petition was launched on Christmas Day by groups including “We are Church,” “Blessed are the Peacemakers,” the Edith Stein Study Center, an Italian association of theologians, and a variety of base communities. All are generally associated with the liberal wing of the Italian Church.

The petition is also signed by the Rev. Luigi Ciotti of Turin, one of Italy’s best known anti-Mafia priests, and the Rev. Alex Zanotelli, a Combonian missionary priest and a well-known social activist.

As of Jan. 3, the petition had attracted close to 2,500 signatures, toward a goal of 50,000.

The current Italian row over Francis began when one of the country’s most renowned Catholic journalists, Vittorio Messori, published a front-page essay on Dec. 24 in Corriere della Sera stating his “perplexity” over what he sees as the pontiff’s contradictions.

Read more at the link.

The famous “anti-Mafia” priest per above signed it. I’d sign probably if I was there. Must be on the net somewhere. Some criticism does not hurt but it should not be excessive.

However, to judge it fairly, I’d really have to read the different sides. An “optional accessory”? I hadn’t even heard this.

Among other things, Messori faulted Francis for sometimes sending signals that the Catholic Church is no more than an “optional accessory” in the spiritual life, for reaching out to political leaders whose agenda is contrary to Church teaching, and for pursuing an uncritical dialogue with leaders of Protestant movements that are draining people away from Catholicism in Latin America.

 

[Tigg]

Now from the Crux, round 2:

Read more at the link.

The famous “anti-Mafia” priest per above signed it. I’d sign probably if I was there. Must be on the net somewhere. Some criticism does not hurt but it should not be excessive.

However, to judge it fairly, I’d really have to read the different sides. An “optional accessory”? I hadn’t even heard this.

From the article…“We Are Church” - anyone know if this has some correlation to the controversial Jesuit movement which influenced liberation theology in the '60’s and which was shot down by JP II?

From Wikipedia:

A movement that advocates changing the teachings and the structures of responsibility and authority of the Catholic Church. It originated in German-speaking Austria, Germany and South Tyrol in 1995 under the title Wir sind Kirche and was organized as an international association in 1996.[1]

It has described Hans Küng as the spiritual father of initiatives that led to the founding of We Are Church.

Serious stuff here…seems we are living in a unique age. May the saints produced during the Arian crisis pray for us now.

 

[openmind77]

…
. I’d sign probably if I was there. Must be on the net somewhere. Some criticism does not hurt but it should not be excessive.

However, to judge it fairly, I’d really have to read the different sides …

You can sign it here, if you can read italian - firmiamo.it/fermiamo-gli-attacchi-a-papa-francesco

 

[Path_Finder]

You can sign it here, if you can read italian - firmiamo.it/fermiamo-gli-attacchi-a-papa-francesco

Thank you, we will see.

 

[GUYMAN]

It seems quite clear if you want universal, socialist control, you have much hope in the Pope.
If you cling to the freedom God has intended for us, you have considerable concern about some of the Pope’s statements, or at least the translations and interpretations, which sadly are often dubious.

I like that the Pope is trying to “clean up” the Curia and be more “welcoming” in a general sense, but I do have some of the same concerns you have.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;12628804:

Oligarchy is what Russia has today. It is quite compatible with capitalism.

Most of the South American dictators (except Castro) including fascists like Hitler and Mussolini were capitalists.

Capitalism is not equal to freedom - true democracy is equal to freedom.

True capitalism is freedom. You are describing cronyism.

 

[dmar198]

True capitalism is freedom. You are describing cronyism.

When you say “freedom,” one thing that comes to mind is a market with no regulations. Is that what you mean? Because I think some regulations are necessary for authentic freedom, but they make the market less free in the sense that regulations prevent people from doing whatever they want. For example, I think a regulation against monopolies serves freedom even though it limits what a corporation can do. And I think there are some products and services that can be legitimately prohibited, such as prostitution, even though that restricts the market in at least one way. Does that seem reasonable to you? Because I get the impression from your posts that you think capitalism means a market with no regulations, and I don’t want to misunderstand you.