It's Official: Hindus Did Worship in Fatima

[dcmac]

And here is some more for you form the Mohammedan perspective Dominus Vobiscum,

Gambar

The Pope mencium Qur’an. Allahu’akbar!Allahu’akbar!.

To all my Moslem borthers and sisters,

I bring you good pictures of the Pope kissing our Qur’an and minggling with our learned Moslem scholars.
He has accepted that Islam and the Quran are Divine. But this internet link will show you how the Christians hate him for doing that?

Only ALLAH has shown Pope John Paul II the true path.

Please go to :-
http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2moslem.htm
and
http://www.truecatholic.org/nop/jp2koran.htm

John Paul II said: The Catholic church respects the Islamic spiritual tradition.

These are truly worthwhile pictures to download as JPEG files to be stores in your My Document file.

Please also sent these photos around to all our Moslem brothers and sisters in Islam.

I am pretty sure SFE and the pearless Christian boys would be really frustrated by now.
Salam.
http://malaysiagold.tripod.com/pope_cium_alquran.html

 

[dcmac]

And here is some from the none other than Fides and I post it because I think that this was the intention of the Holy Father, though I disagree with you on the Mohammedan and orthodox Catholic outlook on the act, still better to be fair and balanced and so I post it here:

Fides reported on June 4, 1999 an interview with Raphael I Bidawid, Patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans.

It is known that Pope John Paul II has often voiced a desire to make a pilgrimage in the footsteps of Abraham, the common father of Jews, Christians and Muslims. For the Pope, Abraham is a figure which helps the unity of believers to overcome political divisions. On May 14th I was received by the Pope, together with a delegation composed of the Shiite imam of Khadum mosque and the Sunni President of the council of administration of the Iraqi Islamic Bank. There was also a representative of the Iraqi ministry of religion. I renewed our invitation to the Pope because his visit would be for us a grace from heaven. It would confirm the faith of Christians and prove the Pope’s love for the whole of humanity in a country which is mainly Muslim. At the end of the audience the Pope bowed to the Muslim holy book the Koran presented to him by the delegation and he kissed it as a sign of respect. The photo of that gesture has been shown repeatedly on Iraqi television and it demonstrates that the Pope is not only aware of the suffering of the Iraqi people, he has also great respect for Islam. A papal visit would be welcomed by both the people and by the authorities. After the audience I immediately sent a recommendation to the Iraqi government to make the official step of inviting the Pope to Iraq.

http://www.fides.org/English/1999/e19990604.html#e322

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

I really could care less what a couple of Muslim extremists have tp say on this issue.

“Only ALLAH has shown Pope John Paul II the true path.”???

Puhlllleeeeeze. What else can be said of a source that is so ignorant of Catholicism that it posts links to the site of an anti-pope to discredit him, as if this site represented the reaction of “true Catholics” to this incident.

At the end of the audience the Pope bowed to the Muslim holy book the Koran presented to him by the delegation and he kissed it as a sign of respect.

A sign of respect to whom/what? The book itself, or those who presented it as a gift?

Do tell, since you find the common-sense interpretation to be incorrect (i.e. the Pope was simply expressing thanks for a gift), why do you think he kissed the Koran?

Is John Paul II a closet Muslim?

 

[Salvo]

DCMAC,

That is the same picture seen over and over. I don’t see any lips touching anything. You can think what you want. But I don’t see him kissing the Qur’an there.

Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Salvo,

If the Catholic Patriarch of Babylon, spiritual leader to the world’s Chaldean Catholics (in union with Rome), says the Pope kissed the Koran, then I believe it.

Point is, this gesture certainly does not mean what so many radicals claim it does.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Salvo,

If the Catholic Patriarch of Babylon, spiritual leader to the world’s Chaldean Catholics (in union with Rome), says the Pope kissed the Koran, then I believe it.

Point is, this gesture certainly does not mean what so many radicals claim it does.

And now we find common ground! :bigyikes:

From one (hopefully) future priest to another, God Bless!

 

[SCTA-1]

I wonder what Sr. Lucia’s opinion is about what happened at Fatima.I wonder if she was ever told.

 

[GeorgeCooney]

Salvo:

First, can I start by saying “Fatima-Schmatima”. I don’t believe in the apparition, so I couldn’t care less about this particular altar over any other.

JMJ

Thank you, Salvo, for your direct and clear statement of **disbelief ** in “Fatima-Schmatima.” I thank you also for your clear indication of belief in the post-Vatican II “ecumenism.” This saves me a lot of time. I shall go forth and shake off even the dust from my feet.

 

[dcmac]

Salvo, he wasn’t putting his face to it to read it…give me a break.

Dominus Vobiscum, frankly, your tone has been rather rude in two of your three posts to me. At first you are obnoxious in addressing me by not extending to me the courtesy of using my name or call sign. Secondly, this comment, “Do tell, since you find the common-sense interpretation to be incorrect” is so ridiculous. If you had actually read my last post, which quoted Fides, you would see that they were saying that the pope was trying to pay respect and nothing more. Further I stated at the outset that this was posted to be fair and balanced and also I pointed out that this was likely the way the Holy Father intended it. So, spare me your rude, condescending rhetoric in which you assert my rejection of common sense Dominus Vobiscum! Show some respect for a change will ya?

For the record, you started off by talking about what others in the middle east thought of kissing something and when I refuted this statement you asked for documentation on what Mohammedans were thinking of it. I supplied that. You obviously do not like it, so you slam them as some sort of ‘out in left field’ Mohammedans as if that really matters. For the record, again, I never said that any Mohammedan wasn’t ‘out in left field’ did I? I never said I felt the pope was a “closet Muslim” did I? I never said I really cared what in the heck the Mohammedans think did I? All I said was that the Mohammedan take on the kissing of the Koran was more than the pooh-poohing you gave it.

A wise person asks questions. What you should have done is to ask why I objected to the kissing of the Koran. But, you didn’t do that did you? You assumed it was because of what the Mohammedans think about it. Of course had you asked the question I would have replied, “because it is a book that denies the divinity of the Christ, the crucifixion (placing that traitor Judas in that position), the resurrection, etc ad nauseum”. So, my objection is with the Holy Father, the supreme head of the Church Militant, kissing a book which very directly blasphemes the Lord and I am inclined to see it as a terrible mistake.

Do not arbitrarily ascribe to me a motive for my dislike of the kissing of that damnable book. Next time ask why it is I have a problem with the act. My reporting on the Mohammedan take was in response to your posts. Go back and read them post by post. Give me a break…

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future Maronite priest,
Donnchadh

 

[Theodora]

The pictures seem to indicate that a Hindu priest is praying at a Catholic altar. From reading most of the posts on this subject, I agree that it is a sacrilege for this to have happened.

One thing I cannot understand is, why is the Pope or Cardinal Ratzinger not saying anything about this abuse? That is my BIG question.

Theodora

 

[ccav]

GeorgeCooney:

JMJ

Thank you, Salvo, for your direct and clear statement of **disbelief ** in “Fatima-Schmatima.” I thank you also for your clear indication of belief in the post-Vatican II “ecumenism.” This saves me a lot of time. I shall go forth and shake off even the dust from my feet.

Very interesting thread!

This post has raised a question in my mind…I was of the understanding that it was not “mandatory” for a Catholic to accept an approved apparition/vision. Am I incorrect?

 

[Forgiven]

cestusdei:

It is hard to know exactly what happened over there. I don’t mind Hindu’s asking for Mary’s prayers. Certainly anyone can visit the shrine. Dominus Iesus was written to address this kind of problem. I seriously doubt Rome is going to let Fatima become a pagan shrine.

Yes, I agree. Rome would never let Fatima become a pagan shrine. Thank you for your balanced view. There has been so much hysteria over this issue, and it is quite difficult to sift through all of it. I believe the priest who accepted the shawl from the Hindu was doing so out of respect for the giver. There is absolutely nothing wrong with one honoring the other as human beings, as spiritual human beings. This does not mean there was desecration.

 

[bob]

dcmac:

A Muslim representative brought the Noble Qur’an, and the pope, in his hypocrisy, affected respect and humilty toward the Glorious Book by kissing it in front of all the participants.

It is extremely important that we first understand what the Catholic Church teaches about Islam. Below is an extract from a Vatican II document:

DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS - NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

Paragraph 3.
“The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.”

Getting upset with the Pope’s kissing of the Quran is akin to burning of all German books (including Bibles) during the 2nd World War.

Mentioned in the Quran are:
Allah = God, Yes! The same God we worship
Archangel Gabriel
Abraham
Jesus (although not as God)
John the Baptist
Mary - has more mention than any other woman in the Quran and even has a chapter named after her.
etc.

Would you desecrate a book that speaks highly of the same people we hold in high regard of?

See site: islamfortoday.com/galvan03.htm

It is easy to condemn what we are ignorant about. We are all guilty of that some time or other.

 

[Mfaustina1]

I’m going to go out on a limb here and disagree (respectfully), with the majority of posts on this thread. I took a look at the pictures and all I saw was a man standing in front of the altar praying (asking for the intercession of Our Lady) whatever his understanding of her might be? I do not know if Hindus consider her to be a “manifestation” of a “goddess” or not. He did nothing to the altar or upon it, so therefore I am not necessarily convinced that the altar has been desecrated. As for the bishop accepting a shawl with Hindu prayers on it, I agree with another poster on this thread that it was accepted in respect and not in deference to the hindu man’s beliefs. Remember the highly respected religious leaders (Pharisees) who accused Jesus of drunkenness and gluttony as well as hanging out with sinners? I see no reason at this point not to accept the answers given by the bishop and the monsignor for their actions at face value at this point. I have noticed as a new Catholic (2 years running) that some have a tendency toward a sort of “Catholic-Fundamentalism”. I don’t mean this harshly nor am I trying to criticize anyone here so please don’t misunderstand. Being fairly new, I know I still have lots to learn. But I do not take much stock in information that comes from ultra-traditionalist nor liberal wings of Catholicism. Just my two cents worth. - God bless and peace to all! - MFaustina1

 

[SojournerOf78]

Has Pope John Paul II made a statement on whether or not he kissed the Koran? And if he has, did he express his opinion on the matter?

Perhaps conjecture leads to all sorts of evils.

 

[GeorgeCooney]

ccav:

This post has raised a question in my mind…I was of the understanding that it was not “mandatory” for a Catholic to accept an approved apparition/vision. Am I incorrect?

JMJ

You are correct! Belief in apparitions and modern miracles are not mandatory. My remarks concerning “saving me time” and moving on were to indicate that I would not waste my time explaining a miraculous event in which I most completely belive to one who so clearly and definitively states that he does not believe. It is my firm belief that the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith, the return of those in schism, has been left to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by Our Lord. My belief is based on what I consider to be the most public and expansive miracle since the parting of the Red Sea.

It was witnessed fully by 70,000 people, including a very large contingent of aetheists who were there to debunk the miracle. 100’s of the observers were up to 20 miles away in villages and on the roads. The miracles lasted for approximately 12 minutes and consisted of many elements. No one, including the Freemasons and their aetheistic officials and press reporters, denied that the events were unexplainable. These miracles were predicted to the general public as to date, time, and place three months in advance. The events were spectacular and unexplainable by natural laws. The Roman Catholic Church has long since declared the Fatima miracle to be worthy of belief.

Further, I do not belief that God performs miracles to amuse the crowds. I believe all miracles are provided only to attest to the Truth of the messages delivered by the seers. Therefore, I believe in the testimony of the three children at the time and thereafter. Therefore, I believe what each of the children had to say. I do not believe in many (most) claims of apparitions and miracles, especially if they do not promote and obtain many graces and favors in conformity with the Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. For instance, **I do believe ** in the apparitions near Lourdes of Our Lady to St. Bernadette Soubirous.

To re-state: I believe the fate of Russia is in the hands of the Immaculate Heart of Mary AND that both Our Blessed Mother and Our Lord have clearly and simply stated through Sr. Lucia what we mortals must do to gain that conversion AND that the miracles of Fatima were presented to attest to the Truth of those messages.

 

[dcmac]

Bob,

Thank you for your post.

You are guilty of assuming something as well. How do you know I am ignorant of something or not? I mean, really, how do you know that definitively? Definitively enough to post, “It is easy to condemn what we are ignorant about. We are all guilty of that some time or other.” (Emphasis mine). For the record, Bob, My stepfather is a Mohammedan from Algeria. Further, I have met with his Imam many a time while they were at the house where we have had many, many discussions on Mohammedanism and other world religions. Even further, I have been attending the Maronite Catholic mission here for a little more than three years. In that time I have come to know many, many Lebanese men and women who have a greater, personal connection to and understanding of Mohammedans. In each of these cases, including the reading of the English translation of that damnable book, I have gathered sufficient information to make an informed and educated opinion of Mohammedanism as a religion and the Koran as its foundational book. In no way am I ignorant of either. Your false conclusion is rather telling of your own understanding of my posts, as well as that of myself. As with Dominus Vobiscum, I would suggest you ask questions before you assign either a motive, or educational state, to someone based on a couple of posts.

“Getting upset with the Pope’s kissing of the Quran is akin to burning of all German books (including Bibles) during the 2nd World War.” (Emphasis mine). Thanks Bob, not only are you assumptive in your analysis of a person, but you’re accusatory as well. This reference is repulsive. I take serious offense to being linked to the Nazis of Germany. I never said anything of the kind to anyone here and I do not know why you felt compelled to passively label me a ‘book-burning German Nazi’. That was simply repulsive and grossly offensive. I await your apology.

“Would you desecrate a book that speaks highly of the same people we hold in high regard of?” Give me a break Bob. Even Satan referenced Sacred Scripture when trying to seduce Jesus while He was on his Great Fast before His mission. That does not make Satan holy simply because he can pray, or reference Sacred Scripture. Simply because a book has those names in it does not give it validity, nor respectability. Have you ever taken some philosophy classes at university? I did and we were taught in the first couple of weeks the dangers of false logic. This is terrible false logic Bob. I will post again later with some of the wonderful writings, teachings of that damnable book.

Finally, I find your misquote offensive as well. I did not write, nor do I endorse, what is ascribed to me in your quote. How cute a trick you play here Bob. Those were words written by another to whom I posted here for Dominus Vobiscum when he asked for documentation. These are words of a Mohammedan not I. If you are going to post a quote form me, please give me the courtesy of posting my words with my call sign, or at the least announce that these are not my words; very unfair Bob. It reminds one of the tactics of the leftist media who routinely quote out of context in order to buttress an editorial point of view…that does not show a good sense of journalistic integrity and I must say I find the same here towards me.

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future Maronite priest,
Dr. Donnchadh mag Eochadha, PsyD

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Dcmac:

You need to chill, big time. There is nothing remotely offensive about my referring to you a “Dude,” no more than when I refer to someone as “sir” or “Ma’aam.” This is not exactly a formal environment, and an internet username is not exactly sacrosanct. It’s not like I mocked it, as if I refered to you as “Big Mac” or something.

If you don’t want to be associated with radical wackos, then you need to stop quoting them to support your positions.

The Muslim sources you quoted are way off-the-wall. Did you bother to read them yourself? What else is one to think of a publication that asserts, among other things, that the Holy Father “has accepted that Islam and the Quran are Divine.” Do you really think that the majority of the world’s Muslims believe this?

Come on!

God save Dcmac, and God save the Maronites!

Aye!

Eric

 

[ccav]

GeorgeCooney,

Thank you very much for that excellent and well written responce! I appreciate you taking the time to respond as you did. You know I do not know alot about the miracles or circumstances around Fatima. Maybe you could recommend a source or sources where I could learn the whole story from beginning to end? I hear alot of controversy regarding the miracles, consecration of Russia, as well as other points. Unfortunately I do not have enough good and indepth information to form much of an opinion on any of these issues. Then couple of paragraph overviews I have read have not had alot of meat. Any good books or websites you, or anyone else here, might recommend to get the straight scoop?

 

[dcmac]

Dominus Vobiscum,

You are right, I mean, I should chill. I shouldn’t get so upset when people are not polite enough to use my name and refer to me as dude; or when they say, “Do tell, since you find the common-sense interpretation to be incorrect”. After all I should not get so upset when people passively assert that I do not use common sense. Nor, when they refer to me as dude. Nor when they ask for documentation to support a Mohammedan take and I supply it and then they lump me in with the infidels. Give me a break Dominus Vobiscum. Never once did I say, or assert, that you were not using common sense. Always did I refer to you politely (and that is the key Dominus Vobiscum, not some morbid sense of “sacrosanct” – simply a mater of respect and being polite) by your call sign. As I do not know you that well, I did not use your name.

Here is another item for ya, and frankly, I hope this time I speak clearly enough so you can understand what it is I am saying. **I do not believe Mohammedans be they moderate, Islamist, or “whacko” hold the truth; to wit I do not care what they think en masse.

**The fact is that you asserted that they do not see it in a certain manner. I said they do. You asked for documentation. I provided it. That does not mean that I agree with their opinions – anymore than I agree with their religious heresy. To claim I need to not post them in order to ‘not be associated with them’ is laughable. I no more agree with them then I do with the JWs when I post documentation on something they hold. Give me a break Charlie Brown…

Yes, God save Donnchadh (a.k.a. dcmac) and God save the Maronites! And may God also save the Romans!!!

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future Maronite priest,

Dr. Donnchadh mag Eochadha, PsyD