It's Official: Hindus Did Worship in Fatima

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ccav:
Very interesting thread!

This post has raised a question in my mind…I was of the understanding that it was not “mandatory” for a Catholic to accept an approved apparition/vision. Am I incorrect?
You are absolutely correct here. As Catholics, we are not obbligated to mandatorily believe in ANY apparition; approved or fake. Although the church does specify that continuous belief in apparitions which have been disproven may lead to perdition.

GEORGE COONEY,

I also believe in the apparitions of Lourdes, Guadalupe, Zeitun, Gibillmana etc. But I don’t believe in Fatima. Sorry. I think that “message” has brought nothing but dissent, conspiracy theory and parranoia within the church, and I don’t believe that’s the type of message God or Mary would bring. :twocents:

As far as eccumenism of Vatican II, if you mean the move towards reunification of the true churches of the East and West, then I support it 100%. I don’t really see how there can be any unification of non-Christian religions though. And as I have said about the Hindus at Fatima, it is best to listen to the version of the church and not a rogue website stating what happened there.

DCMAC,

I don’t need to “give you a break”. I think rather someone needs to give you a backbone as you seem to snivel and whine after every post to you.

SOJOURNER,

I agree. I have never seen the pope kiss the Qur’an, nor have I heard either him or the church make a statement regarding this. Therefore, I believe as you do that it is in bad taste and counterproductive to speculate on it.
 
GrzeszDeL said:
%between%

The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.

Flannery O’Connor

Very true. However there are certain people within the church who are rather feeble minded and given to wild conspiracy theories. I see no need to fuel their discontent. So, what is your agenda here?
 
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Salvo:
there are certain people within the church who are rather feeble minded and given to wild conspiracy theories. I see no need to fuel their discontent. So, what is your agenda here?
I do not know that I have anything thorough and definitive enough to be called an “agenda.” It simply seems to me that that, taken together, the data we have lead to the conclusion that Hindus have been allowed to desecrate the Fatima shrine. I think that the moves to discredit those who advance this conclusion, however charitable the motives involved, constitute a sort of willful disconnect from reality. One need not believe in some sort of conspiracy between the Vatican, the Masons and the Trilateral Commision in order to look at the evidence available and say that something rotten is afoot in certain places in the Church.
 
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GrzeszDeL:
I do not know that I have anything thorough and definitive enough to be called an “agenda.” It simply seems to me that that, taken together, the data we have lead to the conclusion that Hindus have been allowed to desecrate the Fatima shrine. I think that the moves to discredit those who advance this conclusion, however charitable the motives involved, constitute a sort of willful disconnect from reality. One need not believe in some sort of conspiracy between the Vatican, the Masons and the Trilateral Commision in order to look at the evidence available and say that something rotten is afoot in certain places in the Church.
So, if we just look to the data on hand.

The word of a schismatic group and the pictures that they have put out there. It seems that every report of this story goes back to this group.

Now we take that and then look at what the local bishop and the rector have said.

Those of us you say are trying to “discredit you” (I didn’t know disagreeing with someone is attempting to discredit them) choose to believe the facts of what the bishop and rector have said and I might add that both of these individuals are Catholics where the story has orginated with a schismatic group.

Some of us may have the idea that those who are pushing this story wish to discredit the church and its leaders.

Or that is how it appears to me.
 
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ccav:
Maybe you could recommend a source or sources where I could learn the whole story from beginning to end?
JMJ

You are correct about controversy concerning the Consecration of Russia. This post may start an attack against any further reference about Fatima. I ask only that you read the documents and judge for yourself.

On the 13th of May 1917, Our Lady appeared to three children near Fatima. She asked them to return each month through October and promised all three would go to Heaven. On June 13th she said that Francisco, 9-yrs, and Jacinta, 7-yrs would die soon. Lucia was told she would stay longer to promote devotion to the Immaculate Heart. The two youngest died within two years. The children told these things immediately to everybody. Lucia, who was 10-years-old, is still living and is 97-yrs. On July 13. during her third appearance, Our Lady showed hell to the children which was part of the secret that subsequently was divided by Lucia into three parts, two of which were revealed in her progressive memoirs.

The third part horrified Lucia so much that it took another direct contact with the Blessed Mother for her to write it down. Many claim the third part of the secret has been revealed (the assassination attempt on JPII). However, in the references below, a physical description of the writing does not match that which the hierarchy proffered. In addition, a lead-in statement at the end of Lucia’s revelation does not matchl. Another puzzle is a statement by Cardinal Ciappi, personal theologian to JPII, who read the “third” secret and reported that: “In the Third Secret it is foretold, among other things, that the great Apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.” During this apparition, the Blessed Mother promised to “perform a miracle for all to see and believe” at that location on October 13, 1917, at noon
Also during this July apparition as part of the secret, Lucia quotes Our Lady:

“You have seen hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end, but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. (In 1917 there was no Pius XI and WWI was still in progress.)

“To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.

“In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world.

“In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved; etc. (sic) Do not tell this to anybody….”

This is only a thumbnail sketch of the beginning of this story.

Refer to:

(www.fatima.org)

“The Whole Secret of Fatima” (in three volumes) by Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, translated into English and available in paperback (Check www.fatima.org )

“Fatima: Intimate Joy, World Event” (in four volumes) by Frere Francois de Marie des Anges, translated into English and available in paperback . (Check www.fatima.org)
“Fatima In Twighlight” (one volume) by Mark Fellows, available in soft cover from Marmion Publications, M.P.O. Box 743, Niagra Falls, NY 14302. (716) 691-7091
 
Just two points in brief reply:
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ByzCath:
The word of a schismatic group and the pictures that they have put out there. It seems that every report of this story goes back to this group.
Not so. As I have pointed out on this thread and elsewhere, we have a report of this event from a secular newspaper, the Portugal News. Both the Catholic Family News and the Shrine authorities have a vested interest in the outcome of this discussion, so we must take both of their accounts with a grain of salt. The newspaper, however, has no dog in this fight, so its word is more trustworthy. I think it is fair to say that the story in the Portugal News indicates that the rector did allow the Hindus to desecrate the shrine.
Those of us you say are trying to “discredit you” (I didn’t know disagreeing with someone is attempting to discredit them) choose to believe the facts of what the bishop and rector have said and I might add that both of these individuals are Catholics where the story has orginated with a schismatic group.
I really was not referring to myself when I spoke of discrediting. I was referring to the attempts to discredit the Catholic Family News. The references to them as “schismatics,” “conspiracy-theorists,” etc. and the not-so-subtle insinuation that the photos on their site are doctored are clearly aimed as refuting the allegation by casting doubt on the trustworthiness of the accusors. I suppose that this is fair enough as far as it goes, save that it ignores the neutral third-party evidence which points to the same conclusion as the Catholic Family News’ photos.
 
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ByzCath:
So, if we just look to the data on hand.

The word of a schismatic group and the pictures that they have put out there. It seems that every report of this story goes back to this group.

Now we take that and then look at what the local bishop and the rector have said…
Exactly. Politics really does make strange bedfellows, doesn’t it? On another thread about “Farrenheit 9/11” a very right-wing “Catholc” poster brought up Michael Hitchens’ article to support her views on the movie (which she never saw). The irony here is that Michael Hitchens, a rabid atheist and anti-Catholic also trashed Mother Theresa in a scathing and unscrupulously unsubstantiated book. So, I guess the moral is, than when you’re in a pinch, schismatics, heretics and atheists can be used as “evidence” to advance your point 😃
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ByzCath:
Some of us may have the idea that those who are pushing this story wish to discredit the church and its leaders.

Or that is how it appears to me.
Gee, ya’ think?? 😉
 
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ByzCath:
Some of us may have the idea that those who are pushing this story wish to discredit the church and its leaders.
An equally plausible but perhaps more charitable interpretation would be to see the work of these (so-called) schismatics as an attempt to save the Church from a fifth-column working to undermine Her from within.
 
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GrzeszDeL:
Not so. As I have pointed out on this thread and elsewhere, we have a report of this event from a secular newspaper, the Portugal News. Both the Catholic Family News and the Shrine authorities have a vested interest in the outcome of this discussion, so we must take both of their accounts with a grain of salt. The newspaper, however, has no dog in this fight, so its word is more trustworthy. I think it is fair to say that the story in the Portugal News indicates that the rector did allow the Hindus to desecrate the shrine.
I skimmed the article from the Portugal News and it appeared to be using the schismatic groups news reports as its source. I say appeared because they never really did supply their source.

I would also add that the article does not really give any useful information to conclude that a descration occured.

And one more thing, I would not say that being a secular news
organization makes them more trustworthy. I would say it makes them less so for two reasons. Seems the secular news agencies have been very anti-catholic of late and they do not know much about catholicism and report things wrong all the time.
 
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ByzCath:
I skimmed the article from the Portugal News and it appeared to be using the schismatic groups news reports as its source. I say appeared because they never really did supply their source.
The story says in the second paragraph that its info comes from . Far from being a “schismatic group,” SIC is one of Portugal’s leading T.V. news-stations. In other words, this is not the invention of some crazy schismatics trying to tar the Catholic Church. This is a report by a group of journalists with nothing to gain one way or another from the outcome of this Catholic shrine fight. As I said before, this attempt to dismiss the matter by tarring the other side of the argument as “schismatics” and “conspiracy theorists” looks to me like nothing so much as a vain hope that closing one’s eyes will make a problem not exist.
 
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Salvo:
You are absolutely correct here. As Catholics, we are not obbligated to mandatorily believe in ANY apparition; approved or fake. Although the church does specify that continuous belief in apparitions which have been disproven may lead to perdition.
Thanks Salvo! I appreciate that clarification.
I also believe in the apparitions of Lourdes, Guadalupe, Zeitun, Gibillmana etc. But I don’t believe in Fatima. Sorry. I think that “message” has brought nothing but dissent, conspiracy theory and parranoia within the church, and I don’t believe that’s the type of message God or Mary would bring. :twocents:
You know, that is an interesting point that I haven’t heard before. I will definatley keep that in mind as I sift through the material. 👍
As far as eccumenism of Vatican II, if you mean the move towards reunification of the true churches of the East and West, then I support it 100%.
:amen:
I agree. I have never seen the pope kiss the Qur’an, nor have I heard either him or the church make a statement regarding this. Therefore, I believe as you do that it is in bad taste and counterproductive to speculate on it.
Ya, this doesn’t get me too shook up either. I just chalk it up to bad PR advice. Whatever islam thinks about it, I am positive that JP2 was just being polite. My dad is Italian (and yes I do realize that JP2 is not) but kissing each other, relatives, friends, stuff and whatever else roles into the house is simply showing respect. Nothing more.
 
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GeorgeCooney:
Refer to:

(www.fatima.org)

“The Whole Secret of Fatima” (in three volumes) by Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, translated into English and available in paperback (Check www.fatima.org )

“Fatima: Intimate Joy, World Event” (in four volumes) by Frere Francois de Marie des Anges, translated into English and available in paperback . (Check www.fatima.org)
“Fatima In Twighlight” (one volume) by Mark Fellows, available in soft cover from Marmion Publications, M.P.O. Box 743, Niagra Falls, NY 14302. (716) 691-7091
Thank you very much for taking the time to write this out! I’m going to do my best to understand what is happening and, by the grace of God, be able to understand. Thanks again! 🙂
 
OK, I have a question I’d like to throw out here. The reason I am asking is that I am getting the impression from some people who have posted here that something insidious might be going on inside the Church…I believe someone even used the word apostacy. My question is this: How then could all this insidiousness and apostacy take place if the Church is supposed to be indefectable? That seems to be a contradiction. Any thoughts? 🙂
 
“I don’t need to “give you a break”. I think rather someone needs to give you a backbone as you seem to snivel and whine after every post to you.” – Salvo

Obnoxious and completely lacking in charity. Of course given the nature of your half-baked posts one ought not to be surprised. ‘Give me a break’ is a form of sarcasm, which is a rhetorical tool in debates. More apt here would possibly be ‘get a clue’, but as I am more charitable than that I won’t level it at you. Clearly you’ve not read a single one of my posts given your gross misrepresentation in your first post and your childish, obnoxious behavior on this one. Did you even read the rules for membership here, or are you trying to stir the pot in order to get a rise of your own before you are suspended for behavior unbecoming?

Your unworthy brother in Christ and by the Grace of God a future Maronite priest,

Dr Donnchadh mag Eochadha, PsyD
 
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ccav:
OK, I have a question I’d like to throw out here. The reason I am asking is that I am getting the impression from some people who have posted here that something insidious might be going on inside the Church…I believe someone even used the word apostacy. My question is this: How then could all this insidiousness and apostacy take place if the Church is supposed to be indefectable? That seems to be a contradiction. Any thoughts? 🙂
CCAV,

The church is comprised of human beings. The dogma of the church domes directly from Our Lord. But the people who are supposedly entrusted to safeguard that dogma can be very VERY flawed or defective. At times, it becomes painfully obvious that the individual’s personal life does not meet with the expectations of the office (such as the Borgia popes) or at other times, while the person may be of the best moral and virtuous character, they fail to protect the church from heresy, such as Pope Honorius mentioned previously. Regardless, as long as the church is run by human beings, it will always be supsceptible to human corruptions.

Luckily, our church has a literary legacy which cannot be taken away. We can read exactly what Our Lord and His apostles told us.
 
Thanks Salvo for straightening that out for me. 👍

This whole area of Fatima, Church apostacy, the various schisms that have shown up recently is new territory for me so I’m still trying to sort it all out in my head. Calisthenics for my brain (Work that flab!!! Ha Ha Ha!).
 
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