I've been thinking.... abortion isn't the problem

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estesbob said:
In all my years of counseling women contemplating abortion or who had had an abortion less than a half dozen made thedecision on their own. Enormous pressure is put on them by their boyfriends/classmates/parents/parents of the father of the cjild/ect

That is why I always find the idea of ā€œchoiceā€ so ludricous. Given a Womans natural maternal isntinc do your really think 1.2 million women a year would choose to kill their child on their own?
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I donā€™t dispute your personal statistics, but is the sample set composed of those you counsel representative of the 1.2 million? Thatā€™s a self-selected group that seeks counseling.

I donā€™t doubt pressure is put on some people, but it would be a bit more accurate to call it pressure rather than force.
 
GreenJeans said:
I donā€™t dispute your personal statistics, but is the sample set composed of those you counsel representative of the 1.2 million? Thatā€™s a self-selected group that seeks counseling.

I donā€™t doubt pressure is put on some people, but it would be a bit more accurate to call it pressure rather than force.
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As I said you dont have a clue.
 
seekerz said:
Yeah? Let me know what he/she thinks? Seriously.
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If youā€™ve read my posts, you know what he thinks. He thinks girls who are aborted while underage should have a right to sue upon reaching majority, and women who are not shown a 4D sonoogram of their baby before being aborted should be allowed to sue for failure to provide informed consent.
 
estesbob said:
As I said you dont have a clue.
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Well, is the self-selected group of people you counsel representative of the 1.2 million women who get abortions? What causes them to seek such counseling?

Suppose I found a group the same size as your counseling group, and they were comfortable with their decisions? Would that indicate 1.2 million women were comfortable with their abortion decision?
 
GreenJeans said:
Well, is the self-selected group of people you counsel representative of the 1.2 million women who get abortions? What causes them to seek such counseling?

Suppose I found a group the same size as your counseling group, and they were comfortable with their decisions? Would that indicate 1.2 million women were comfortable with their abortion decision?
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Have you actually done that?

How many women have you counciled regarding abortion?
 
vern_humphrey said:
Donā€™t you just love it when someone with no expertise comes into your area and expects you to honor their imagination over your own hands-on experience?šŸ˜›
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Itā€™s especially encouraging when the expert is using a self-selected group of people seeking counseling to impute characteristics to 1.2 million. The boldness should be admired.

So, perhaps you can tell us how Bobā€™s self selected group of people seeking counseling is representative of 1.2 million women.
 
vern_humphrey said:
If youā€™ve read my posts, you know what he thinks. He thinks girls who are aborted while underage should have a right to sue upon reaching majority, and women who are not shown a 4D sonoogram of their baby before being aborted should be allowed to sue for failure to provide informed consent.
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How does he plan on having them prove years after the fact, that an unwarranted procedure (i.e. normal pregnancy with no problems) was performed on them? I understand the concept heā€™s proposing, but how could it be practically implemented; what kind of evidence would be used etc.

With all due respect to the justice system, thereā€™s only so much that can be achieved in the courts. On the other hand, if we had more pro-life hospitals (at least making sure our Catholic hospitals walked the walk - and Iā€™'m not referring to abortion) and doctors, then weā€™d really get somewhere.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Have you actually done that?

How many women have you counciled regarding abortion?
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I am sure it is none.But there is no basis for discussion. Its a lot easier to make conclusions based on no hands on experience whatsoever.

I have been active in the pro life movement for over a quarter a century. In addtion to cousneling iI have attened seminars all around the country, am in constant contact with counselors nationwide, have facilitated Post abortion recovery groups for men and read every piece of literature I can get my hands on.I say this not to brag but to point out why it is totally useless to argue the issue with most of those who proclaim to be pro-choice or worst yet those who claim to be pro-life but belittle those of us trying to make a difference by throwing every canard there is at us about why we will fail. As you see with Greenjeans he knows better and all my experience for naught.

Greenjeans says that you cant force a woman to have an abortion and dismisses anyone who says othrwise. The difference is that for you and I this is a matter life and death-for him its just a political issue-no more important than arguing about minimum wage or affirmative action. Meanwhile the children continue to die
 
GreenJeans said:
Itā€™s especially encouraging when the expert is using a self-selected group of people seeking counseling to impute characteristics to 1.2 million. The boldness should be admired.

So, perhaps you can tell us how Bobā€™s self selected group of people seeking counseling is representative of 1.2 million women.
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See what I mean , Vern? Waste of time. He wants to argue-we want to save. No middleground there.
 
GreenJeans said:
Itā€™s especially encouraging when the expert is using a self-selected group of people seeking counseling to impute characteristics to 1.2 million. The boldness should be admired.

So, perhaps you can tell us how Bobā€™s self selected group of people seeking counseling is representative of 1.2 million women.
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I notice you did** not** answer my question about how many women you have counseled.šŸ˜›
 
estesbob said:
See what I mean , Vern? Waste of time. He wants to argue-we want to save. No middleground there.
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Exactly. And once again, I ask the question that they refuse to answer ā€“ why are they impelled to try to stop us from working against abortion?
 
seekerz said:
How does he plan on having them prove years after the fact, that an unwarranted procedure (i.e. normal pregnancy with no problems) was performed on them? I understand the concept heā€™s proposing, but how could it be practically implemented; what kind of evidence would be used etc.
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A word to the wise ā€“ donā€™t ever commit a serious crime, because your understanding of how the judicial process works is seriously flawed.šŸ˜›
seekerz said:
With all due respect to the justice system, thereā€™s only so much that can be achieved in the courts. On the other hand, if we had more pro-life hospitals (at least making sure our Catholic hospitals walked the walk - and Iā€™'m not referring to abortion) and doctors, then weā€™d really get somewhere.
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Did you somehow get your law degree between this post and your last one?šŸ˜›
 
estesbob said:
I am sure it is none.But there is no basis for discussion. Its a lot easier to make conclusions based on no hands on experience whatsoever.

I have been active in the pro life movement for over a quarter a century. In addtion to cousneling iI have attened seminars all arund the country, am in constant contact with counselors nationwide, have facilitated Post abortion recovery groups for men and read every piece of literature I can get my hands on.I say this not to brag but to point out why it is totally useless to argue the issue with most of those who proclaim to be pro-choice or worst yet those who claim to be pro-life but belittle those of us trying to make a difference by throwing every canard there is at us about why we will fail. As you see with Greenjeans he knows better and all my experience for naught.

Greenjeans says that you cant force a woman to have an abortion and dismisses anyone who says othrwise. The difference is that for you and iI this is a matter life and death-for him its just a political issue-no more important than arguing about minimum wage or affirmative action. Meanwhile the children continue to die
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Counseling and post-abortion recovery groups? Are these self-selected groups of people who have a problem? Sure sounds like it. So, maybe you or Vern can tell us how that sample set translates to the 1.2 million women? Itā€™s a simple question. Basic statistics.

Maybe we can get someone from Planned Parenthood who can talk about the twenty-five years she has interviewed members who have had abortions. Then she can tell us how happy they are, how well adjusted they are, and how they have no regrets. Then she could impute the happiness of her self-selected sample set to all the 1.2 women who have abortions each year.

But, I would then have to rise to my statistical duty and dispute the validity of imputing the characteristics of her self-selected group to 1.2 million women. Itā€™s a burden, but someone has to do it.

And if an issue is life or death, what does that tell us about the history of the employment of force?
 
estesbob said:
See what I mean , Vern? Waste of time. He wants to argue-we want to save. No middleground there.
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How 'bout that, Vern? Are we to accept invalid statistical conclusions based on self-identified noble motivations?
 
vern_humphrey said:
I notice you did** not** answer my question about how many women you have counseled.šŸ˜›
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How about supporting Bob on this? He thinks his experience with self-selected groups of people with problems translates to all 1.2 million women who have abortions each year. Use your imagination.
 
GreenJeans said:
How 'bout that, Vern? Are we to accept invalid statistical conclusions based on self-identified noble motivations?
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I notice you did not answer my question about how many women you have counseled.šŸ˜›

But Bobā€™s experience tallies with mine ā€“ although I have not been at it so long, nor in such a populated area. Iā€™ve worked with about 60 women and girls.

And his experience tallies with that of all the other crisis pregnancy centers Iā€™ve consulted with.

So whatā€™s your basis of experience?

And once again, whatā€™s your motivation for attacking people who are trying to reduce abortion in this country?
 
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