I've been thinking.... abortion isn't the problem

[katy]

Are you sure there were that many illegal abortions? There was a statistic put out around then that drew a blatantly false # of illegal abortions out of thin air to promote “safe, clean” abortions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Are you sure there were that many illegal abortions? There was a statistic put out around then that drew a blatantly false # of illegal abortions out of thin air to promote “safe, clean” abortions.

Let’s have a source for that figure.

Let’s remember that was an era when activists dramatically inflated statistics – on the homeless, on kidnappings, and so on in order to push their agendas.

 

[seekerz]

I’d like to see the source of those figures too but they wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Not everybody is raised with Catholic morals and even those that are sometimes cave in to socio-economic pressures of selfish agendas. That’s what keeps abortion going and as long as those factors aren’t influenced by those of us who know better, there’s not much hope for change.

I just Googled “abortion in Colombia” and came up with this: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4804875&dopt=Abstract

The relevance? We’re expecting the legal system to do a job that only good Christian example and outreach can ever achieve: South America’s abortion experience would teach us that if we’d let it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’d like to see the source of those figures too but they wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Not everybody is raised with Catholic morals and even those that are sometimes cave in to socio-economic pressures of selfish agendas. That’s what keeps abortion going and as long as those factors aren’t influenced by those of us who know better, there’s not much hope for change.

The way to influence thos factors is with social disapproval. The first step in social disapproval is to outlaw the killing of the innocent and to enforce the law.

I can remember when “separate but equal” was the law – and decent people saw nothing wrong with not wanting to drink from the same fountain, share the same waiting room, or restroom with Blacks. After all, it was the law – how could it be wrong if the law sanctioned it?

I just Googled “abortion in Colombia” and came up with this: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4804875&dopt=Abstract

The relevance? We’re expecting the legal system to do a job that only good Christian example and outreach can ever achieve: South America’s abortion experience would teach us that if we’d let it.

Abortion in Colombia. Medical, legal and socioeconomic aspects]

PIP: Abortion is a social problem and criminal sanctions are very ineffective in limiting it and are seldom applied (133 legal actions vs. 65,600 cases of induced abortion in 1965).

Columbia is a nation always on the brink of being overthrown by narco-terrorists. Law enforcement there is hardly a model for other societies.

 

[seekerz]

The way to influence thos factors is with social disapproval. The first step in social disapproval is to outlaw the killing of the innocent and to enforce the law.

I can remember when “separate but equal” was the law – and decent people saw nothing wrong with not wanting to drink from the same fountain, share the same waiting room, or restroom with Blacks. After all, it was the law – how could it be wrong if the law sanctioned it?

Columbia is a nation always on the brink of being overthrown by narco-terrorists. Law enforcement there is hardly a model for other societies.

Columbia, like most of South America, is predominantly Catholic and the social disapproval for abortion is already there, the laws against abortion are already there. You could Google any of those other countries that restrict abortion and probably see similar statistics.

You are right in comparing civil rights issues to abortion in a certain sense because the outlawing of segregation was one of the first steps in black people’s journey to achieving social equality, just as laws against abortion will be just the beginning, not the end of the struggle.

That racial discrimination is still widespread in this country is testament to the fact that laws can only do so much; often it’s difficult to prove that someone was mistreated just because of their race unless the offender admits it (fat chance).

With abortion in South America they’re finding that enforcement of existing laws can be difficult even with the strongest will to do so, simply because a police officer cannot diagnose an abortion - you need doctors to do that. Sometimes even the doctor can’t tell for sure if the woman procured an abortion elsewhere rather than suffered a natural miscarriage. There’s a world of difference between suspicion and proof.

Herein lies the big difference from the civil rights comparison you made: the baby can’t speak up and say what really happened like someone could if they were discriminated against. It’s the very people performing, promoting or recommending abortions today who are going to have to say whether someone had an abortion or not. Unless they are converted, guess what they’re gonna do…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Columbia, like most of South America, is predominantly Catholic and the social disapproval for abortion is already there, the laws against abortion are already there. You could Google any of those other countries that restrict abortion and probably see similar statistics.

I’ve never lived in Columbia, but I lived in Peru for two years – in a fairly remote area. I would say that for many where I lived, Catholicism was only skin deep.

You are right in comparing civil rights issues to abortion in a certain sense because the outlawing of segregation was one of the first steps in black people’s journey to achieving social equality, just as laws against abortion will be just the beginning, not the end of the struggle.

You are correct, but as a wise man once told me, “No matter how long it takes, if we wait until tomorrow to take the first step, it will take a day longer.”

That racial discrimination is still widespread in this country is testament to the fact that laws can only do so much; often it’s difficult to prove that someone was mistreated just because of their race unless the offender admits it (fat chance).

But those of us who lived during segregation can testify “only so much” can be quite a bit. A person who fell asleep in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and so on in 1950 would he astouned at the racial attitudes he would find if he woke up today.

With abortion in South America they’re finding that enforcement of existing laws can be difficult even with the strongest will to do so, simply because a police officer cannot diagnose an abortion - you need doctors to do that. Sometimes even the doctor can’t tell for sure if the woman procured an abortion elsewhere rather than suffered a natural miscarriage. There’s a world of difference between suspicion and proof.

The police don’t have to diagnose an abortion. Just go to the clinic.

Herein lies the big difference from the civil rights comparison you made: the baby can’t speak up and say what really happened like someone could if they were discriminated against. It’s the very people performing, promoting or recommending abortions today who are going to have to say whether someone had an abortion or not. Unless they are converted, guess what they’re gonna do…

That’s why we should do three things right now:

1. Recognize that an underage girl cannot consent, and give her the right to sue her abortionist when she comes of age.
2. Make 4D sonograms part of “informed consent” – so that a woman who is not shown a 4D sonogram prior to an abortion can sue.
3. Make it mandatory to report all abortions on underage girls – after all, that is proof of statutory rape.

 

[seekerz]

The police don’t have to diagnose an abortion. Just go to the clinic.

That’s why we should do three things right now:

1. Recognize that an underage girl cannot consent, and give her the right to sue her abortionist when she comes of age.
2. Make 4D sonograms part of “informed consent” – so that a woman who is not shown a 4D sonogram prior to an abortion can sue.
3. Make it mandatory to report all abortions on underage girls – after all, that is proof of statutory rape.

Some of what you’re saying I get, but just imagine a scenario where all abortion clinics are closed; that doesn’t prevent abortions being done elsewhere. There aren’t clinics in much of Latin America. Abortions can be done anywhere under various guises.

The sonogram part is good but does that prevent the child being killed? And what about those who aren’t underage girls?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Some of what you’re saying I get, but just imagine a scenario where all abortion clinics are closed; that doesn’t prevent abortions being done elsewhere. There aren’t clinics in much of Latin America. Abortions can be done anywhere under various guises.

The fact that we can’t prevent all rapes, bank robberies, and similar crimes doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do all we can to reduce them.

The sonogram part is good but does that prevent the child being killed?

I have seen studies that indicate a very high percentage of women inclined to have an abortion change their minds upon seeing a 4D sonogram.

And what about those who aren’t underage girls?

The 4D sonogram should go a long way toward dissuading them. And those who aren’t shown such a sonogram would have standing to sue the abortionist later on.

 

[urban-hermit]

Some of what you’re saying I get, but just imagine a scenario where all abortion clinics are closed; that doesn’t prevent abortions being done elsewhere. There aren’t clinics in much of Latin America. Abortions can be done anywhere under various guises.

You are basically repeating the ubiquitous “wire hanger” argument, which does not recognize that abortion is essentially exactly the same as any other murder. Murder is illegal throughout the world. Yet murders continue to happen every day. “You can’t stop murder”, one might be tempted to say. Well, the fact is that many many murders ARE prevented every single day, simply because it is illegal and is prosecuted aggressively.

Most men will relent from pushing a woman they know into having an abortion if there is no abortion center. Most women will more strongly resist having an abortion if there is no abortion center. Even most women who are not being coerced and WANT to have an abortion will opt not to undergo a “do-it-yourself” job if there is no abortion center.

In practice, closing ALL abortion centers DOES prevent most abortions. (If you actually do it.)

The reason your link - which is from 1973 and is filled with nonsense, including the exactly false myth that “family planning” (read: “contraception”) prevents abortion rather than perpetuating it - says that abortion persists is very simple: the abortion centers are NOT all closed. And the link says why: abortion prohibitions are hardly enforced.

You seem to be proposing that there exists a moral reason that abortion centers should remain open for business. However, unless you want to see more rather than less abortions performed (and I don’t think you do), this makes no sense.

 

[seekerz]

Pardon me but you seem to have no idea what I’m talking about.

One of the problems with some pro-life people is that they have tunnel vision. Sorry but it’s true. Abortion is murder end of story - don’t even try to discuss any issues around it: we won’t hear you, we won’t reason, we’ll accuse you of being pro-choice…

I am not talking about wire hanger abortions. I am talking about the fact (whether closed minds choose to accept it or not) that there is no one procedure called abortion in the medical world. There are procedures used to bring about abortion, which also have other legal (moral) uses.

Don’t take my word for it. Call up any Catholic doctor you know in the field and ask him/her whether you need an abortion clinic to perform an abortion. Ask if there isn’t more than one method of taking a child’s life in the womb. Ask if those methods aren’t used in hospitals and offices everyday. Ask if it isn’t impossible to ban all the methods because they are used for treatment of various conditions. Ask whether a woman can be convicted of having an abortion (in a scenario where it’s illegal) without a doctor’s testimony (I’m talking early abortion here)? Ask what proportion of today’s doctors are likely to want to give testimony that might send a woman to jail for ending an early pregnancy and how difficult it would be for them to avoid giving incriminating testimony? Ask whether a woman can take drugs (illegally available to her but with valid medical uses) to start an abortion and then see a doctor and pretend it started naturally?

For the sake of all the innocent lives at stake, get familiar with the real issues that countries with restricted abortion face and head them off now - go convert the persons who seek and perform them. It’s as simple as the great commission: go make disciples of all men…(incidentally that was the idea at the start of the thread: the problem isn’t abortion, the problem is godlessness)

 

[katy]

I don’t understand what you are proposing. That abortion centers remain open? That abortion remain legal and politically correct? Aside from being human slaughter houses, they are also the places where a woman can be easily manipulated into going as long as they exist and are legal.

 

[seekerz]

I don’t understand what you are proposing. That abortion centers remain open? That abortion remain legal and politically correct? Aside from being human slaughter houses, they are also the places where a woman can be easily manipulated into going as long as they exist and are legal.

I’m not proposing any such thing. Please read the whole thread.
All I’m saying is that energy and passion are better focussed on bringing those involved in abortion to God. By all means change the law and shut down the clinics; I’m all for that. The numbers of abortions may or may not go down, but the real, lasting solution is evangelization. Remember prohibition?

 

[katy]

. Remember prohibition?

Hey, I’m not that old!
I did write an undergrad paper on it, tho. I don’t think prohibiting alcohol, which is a good thing in itself, quite compares with abortion, which is evil in itself. That said, I think that both approaches; shutting down abortion centers and making it illegal, and changing the culture are both necessary. This is where different organizations and different people will be called to engage in different aspects of the problem. It is too big for one person to do everything without finding a focus for themselves.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not proposing any such thing. Please read the whole thread.
All I’m saying is that energy and passion are better focussed on bringing those involved in abortion to God. By all means change the law and shut down the clinics; I’m all for that. The numbers of abortions may or may not go down, but the real, lasting solution is evangelization. Remember prohibition?

What makes you think the rest of us are not involved in evangelization, helping young girls, and educating children?

 

[CTMom]

Abortion, however, is the greatest evil being perpetrated on people in most of our respective nations and we must fight it. It is the greatest evil because it is murder on an unfathomable scale. Millions are lost each year. Millions of people, many of whom could have become men and women of God, have had their lives cut short. Millions of people, all of whom are innocent and deserve to live.

I don’t disagree with your point on abortion being the greatest evil, but we often get so trapped into the “political abortion” box that we forget about the murder (by starvation and lack of medical care) of innocent children after they are born as well. They are equally as deserving of our protection yet the question on how to save those innocents never comes up in any political debate.

When we cure the world’s apathy and disrespect for one another, we will finally see the beginning of the end for abortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I don’t disagree with your point on abortion being the greatest evil, but we often get so trapped into the “political abortion” box that we forget about the murder (by starvation and lack of medical care) of innocent children after they are born as well. They are equally as deserving of our protection yet the question on how to save those innocents never comes up in any political debate.

You’re kidding, right? We have a huge Social Services system devoted to doing exactly that.

When we cure the world’s apathy and disrespect for one another, we will finally see the beginning of the end for abortion.

And when we discover the Secret of the Universe, we’ll be able to solve all our problems.

 

[seekerz]

What makes you think the rest of us are not involved in evangelization, helping young girls, and educating children?

Most of the people I meet and talk to who oppose abortion seem to think that changing the laws is the real answer to the problem and their passion seem to be getting that done through the political process. I have nothing against that, but feel that many people are in for a rude awakening and would engage better if they saw how complex the battle is.

E.g. So many danced the victory dance over the recent partial birth abortion legislation. Did you see very many on the opposite crying over it? If they were disappointed it was just about the principle of having their ‘right to choose’ infringed on (as they see it). Is that legislation really going to save even a single life? I remain to be convinced.

Hey, I’m not that old!
I did write an undergrad paper on it, tho. I don’t think prohibiting alcohol, which is a good thing in itself, quite compares with abortion, which is evil in itself. That said, I think that both approaches; shutting down abortion centers and making it illegal, and changing the culture are both necessary. This is where different organizations and different people will be called to engage in different aspects of the problem. It is too big for one person to do everything without finding a focus for themselves.

My comparison to prohibition stems not from believing that both are equally evil, but from the understanding of how difficult it is to legislate away something that a large number of people are bent on indulging in.

Forgive me, but I’m the quintessential realist.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Most of the people I meet and talk to who oppose abortion seem to think that changing the laws is the real answer to the problem and their passion seem to be getting that done through the political process. I have nothing against that, but feel that many people are in for a rude awakening and would engage better if they saw how complex the battle is.

But you know better.

E.g. So many danced the victory dance over the recent partial birth abortion legislation. Did you see very many on the opposite crying over it? If they were disappointed it was just about the principle of having their ‘right to choose’ infringed on (as they see it). Is that legislation really going to save even a single life? I remain to be convinced.

I think you entirely misinterpret the feelings many have regarding the recent decision. I know no one who sees it as the end of abortion – we merely see it as a crack in what was formerly an impenetrable wall.

My comparison to prohibition stems not from believing that both are equally evil, but from the understanding of how difficult it is to legislate away something that a large number of people are bent on indulging in

Alcohol and abortion are very different things…

Forgive me, but I’m the quintessential realist.

So you say.

 

[anthony022071]

It’s not as if the ideas of abortion as “symptom” and abortion as “problem” contradict each other. One is a general and the other a specific recognition of evil.The hard-hearted willingness to deny God-given dignity and value to human life (and thereby God ) in one way leads to other forms of evil. Certainly abortion is a problem in and of itself,and it is tied in with the general rejection of the implications of the word: “God created man in his own image.”

 

[seekerz]

But you know better.

I think you entirely misinterpret the feelings many have regarding the recent decision. I know no one who sees it as the end of abortion – we merely see it as a crack in what was formerly an impenetrable wall.

Alcohol and abortion are very different things…

So you say.

Yes, I do know better than those who fill my mailbox asking for support for this or that political candidate who will ride in on a white horse and save us all from abortion. Oh wait, maybe he’ll just throw a blanket over the whole mess so we never have to think about it again (unless some realist dares to look beneath). Forget this discussion, some things just have to happen…