I've been thinking.... abortion isn't the problem

[Jennifer123]

I guess I do not understand your post? If the current abortion rate in the US is >2,000,000, and we educated everybody resulting in (theoretically) zero unplanned/unwanted pregnancies in the year 2012 then how many abortions would you expect in 2012 ?

Certainly you are aware that contraception isn’t 100% effective? As long as people separate the act of sexual intercourse from the end result, pregnancy, there will be abortion, as long as it’s legal.
All of the other problems with objectification is just a symptom of the contraceptive mentality.

 

[Jennifer123]

It’s a very rare thing for a person to wake up in the morning and say, “I think after my second cup of coffee I’ll go do something evil today.” With rare exceptions no one really thinks that way. People don’t think of themselves as evil. People, generally, don’t want to do evil things. I know several women who have had abortions. Some have later seen the error of that decision, and some have not. None of them are “evil” people. They are, all of them, good decent people who for some reason have chosen to do a horrible thing.

We are not saying these women are evil. But don’t make the mistake of not calling the act of abortion evil. Cause it is. These are babies, ripped limb from limb in the only safe place God designed, just for them, the womb. In the case of the contraceptive mentality, it is leading women to objectify themselves, that isn’t anything the patriarchal society is doing to them.

You have to be able to separate the person from the act, and be unapologetic about it. We have to get real and stop hiding. The truth sets us free, and a spiritual work of mercy is to adminsh the sinner. Why is that? Because how else are they to know the Kingdom if they aren’t turned toward it?

I have a hard time believing that a woman doesn’t feel any pain from their abortion. They may not be telling you, they may be in denial, they may be politically motivated, but certainly if they don’t feel anything about it, what should that tell you? They’ve participated in something truly heinous and there’s no emotion?? Those are the ones who truly need the truth.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I guess I do not understand your post? If the current abortion rate in the US is >2,000,000, and we educated everybody resulting in (theoretically) zero unplanned/unwanted pregnancies in the year 2012 then how many abortions would you expect in 2012 ?

Certainly you are aware that contraception isn’t 100% effective? As long as people separate the act of sexual intercourse from the end result, pregnancy, there will be abortion, as long as it’s legal.
All of the other problems with objectification is just a symptom of the contraceptive mentality.

So the estimated number is? Would you like to estimate both numbers 1) the unplanned pregnancy rate when full knowledge exists (many now use 2 forms of contraception for each act) and 2) the resulting abortion rate under those conditions?

 

[Jennifer123]

So the estimated number is? Would you like to estimate both numbers 1) the unplanned pregnancy rate when full knowledge exists (many now use 2 forms of contraception for each act) and 2) the resulting abortion rate under those conditions?

I’m not going to estimate because I deal with facts . “Unplanned” pregnancies happen all the time, even among those who understand that sex=babies. It doesn’t matter anyway because one baby ripped apart is one too many, especially when there are waiting couples who want to adopt. Abortion is unexcusable, period.

 

[seekerz]

No doubt then Joseph Megelle was performing his grisly experiments in the concentration camps, he convinced himself he was doing “good.”

No doubt there are people who wake up in the morning and say, “I think after my second cup of coffee I’ll go do something good today, like sell drugs to the kids in grammar school.”

You could say the same about serial killers. After all, Hitler liked children and dogs.

What gives is you are defining deviancy out of existance.

To end abortion, stop condoning it and making excuses for those who do it.

The last 300 years have shown we can’t end murder, rape, robbery and similar crimes. But that doesn’t excuse us from doing our best to minimize them.

Not as long as we refuse to see these grisley acts for what they are and make excuses for those who perpetrate them.

Condemnation without compassion will never stop abortion. Some women have abortions out of free, deliberate choice but that’s by no means the only (or arguably even the main) reason. Some are forced into it, some have been convinced by others that it’s their only ‘choice.’

Until my respectable, comfortable middle-class world was penetrated by the pain of women so scarred by life that they couldn’t feel their own hurt, I didn’t understand it either.

Only when I heard their matter-of-fact accounts of abuse and degradation did I realise how much people like me had failed them by not seeing, understanding and ministering to their needs. Meanwhile the “enlightened” of our times had gotten to them and convinced them that the only answer to their misery was to not bring other people into the world to share it.

There is a plane on which some people live, where it takes so much effort to draw the next breath or put one foot in front of the other, that they give no thought to concepts such as self-worth, value of life or even ‘right and wrong’. All they do is survive - barely.

The next time you meet a woman outside an abortion clinic, think about that as you approach her… If you do, maybe - just maybe, you’ll save a life.

 

[Jennifer123]

Condemnation without compassion will never stop abortion. Some women have abortions out of free, deliberate choice but that’s by no means the only (or arguably even the main) reason. Some are forced into it, some have been convinced by others that it’s their only ‘choice.’

Until my respectable, comfortable middle-class world was penetrated by the pain of women so scarred by life that they couldn’t feel their own pain, I didn’t understand it either.

Only when I heard their matter-of-fact accounts of abuse, and degradation did I realise how much people like me had failed them by not seeing, understanding and ministering to their needs. Meanwhile the “enlightened” of our times had gotten to them and convinced them that the only answer to their misery was to not bring other people into the world to share it.

There is a plane on which some people live, where it takes so much effort to draw the next breath or put one foot in front of the other, that they give no thought to concepts such as self-worth, value of life or even ‘right and wrong’. All they do is survive - barely.

The next time you meet a woman outside an abortion clinic, think about that as you approach her… If you do, maybe - just maybe, you’ll save a life.

I think it’s a mistake to judge Vern as being uncaring about these women. We can talk about circumstances all we want, we all know these circumstances exist. It doesn’t change the fact that abortion is an evil act. Abortion, even for these scarred women, will only compound their problems and is just further manipulation. If we truly loved these women, we wouldn’t offer them the “choice”. Noting good can come from an inherently evil act.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Condemnation without compassion will never stop abortion. Some women have abortions out of free, deliberate choice but that’s by no means the only (or arguably even the main) reason. Some are forced into it, some have been convinced by others that it’s their only ‘choice.’

Condemnation without compassion will never stop murder, rape, robbery or large-scale drug sales. But no one applies that argument to those crimes.

The fact that they don’t tells us something – too many people consider abortion as semi-respectable. In other circumstances, those people would be called “enablers” – they offer rationalle and excuses for those who drink, use drugs (and have abortions.)

Until my respectable, comfortable middle-class world was penetrated by the pain of women so scarred by life that they couldn’t feel their own hurt, I didn’t understand it either.

You are not the only person who has come face-to-face with reality. And that does not excuse the pre-meditated murder of the most helpless and innocent amongst us.

Only when I heard their matter-of-fact accounts of abuse and degradation did I realise how much people like me had failed them by not seeing, understanding and ministering to their needs. Meanwhile the “enlightened” of our times had gotten to them and convinced them that the only answer to their misery was to not bring other people into the world to share it.

Youi are not the only person who has heard and seen abuse at first hand. That doesn’t excuse murder.

There is a plane on which some people live, where it takes so much effort to draw the next breath or put one foot in front of the other, that they give no thought to concepts such as self-worth, value of life or even ‘right and wrong’. All they do is survive - barely.

You aren’t the only person who has seen people living in poverty. That doesn’t excuse murder.

The next time you meet a woman outside an abortion clinic, think about that as you approach her… If you do, maybe - just maybe, you’ll save a life.

I meet a lot of women in that condition – I’m Secretary of our local Right-to-Live Committee and deal with them regularly.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

We are not saying these women are evil. But don’t make the mistake of not calling the act of abortion evil. Cause it is. These are babies, ripped limb from limb in the only safe place God designed, just for them, the womb. In the case of the contraceptive mentality, it is leading women to objectify themselves, that isn’t anything the patriarchal society is doing to them.

You have to be able to separate the person from the act, and be unapologetic about it. We have to get real and stop hiding. The truth sets us free, and a spiritual work of mercy is to adminsh the sinner. Why is that? Because how else are they to know the Kingdom if they aren’t turned toward it?

I have a hard time believing that a woman doesn’t feel any pain from their abortion. They may not be telling you, they may be in denial, they may be politically motivated, but certainly if they don’t feel anything about it, what should that tell you? They’ve participated in something truly heinous and there’s no emotion?? Those are the ones who truly need the truth.

Good heavens.

Has anybody said anything about abortion not being evil? I think we’ve all taken pains to say that it is. We’re not trying to justify it, or say that it’s ok, or say that we should not try to stop it. Read the prior posts very carefully. Asbestos Mango, in the original post, made the point beautifully. All of the sins that we have addressed here are evil. The question we are asking is this, “What could it be that causes otherwise ordinary people not to recognize these things as evil?” We believe that the answer is that we fail to recognize the intrinsic value, worth and beauty of each and every human person. Our task, as we see it is to infuse that sense of worth and dignity into our culture. Our question is how do we do that.

Finger wagging is not particularly effective. We’ve been there, done that and bought the shirt. You just can’t shout someone into repentance. You just can’t shame somone to Jesus.

What we need to address is the one thing that we believe lies at the root of all of the problems we have discussed…The view that human beings are objects for our pleasure and utility. When we get no pleasure from people, or when they are not useful, we throw them away like so much garbage. We won’t end abortion or the death penalty or the exploitation of the poor or terrorisim or the objectification of women until we see that they are all related. They are all tied together by a common thread. That thread is the view that people are worthy of life only to the extent that they can be useful or give us pleasure. If a person gives us pleasure, if they produce more than they consume, then they are valuable. If they are an annoyance, or if they consume more than they produce, then they are disposable.

That attitude is the root of the all of the evils that we have discussed so far. So how do we go about changing it?

 

[vern_humphrey]

That attitude is the root of the all of the evils that we have discussed so far. So how do we go about changing it?

We start by recognizing abortion for what it is – a horrible grisley crime that is never acceptable. We stop making excuses and acting as enablers.

It is one thing to help young women in trouble. It is another thing entirely to accept this brand of murder as being any different from any other brand of murder.

 

[Jennifer123]

Good heavens.

Has anybody said anything about abortion not being evil? I think we’ve all taken pains to say that it is. We’re not trying to justify it, or say that it’s ok, or say that we should not try to stop it. Read the prior posts very carefully. Asbestos Mango, in the original post, made the point beautifully. All of the sins that we have addressed here are evil. The question we are asking is this, “What could it be that causes otherwise ordinary people not to recognize these things as evil?” We believe that the answer is that we fail to recognize the intrinsic value, worth and beauty of each and every human person.

I have read the posts carefully. What could it be that causes these people to not recognize abortion as evil? Maybe the fact that it even exists causes people to to not recognize it as evil. It is a choice to have an abortion. No one forces women to have one regardless of circumstance. It exists, and because it is legal, it is implicitly condoned by society.

Further justifications, like, it is a person’s circumstance, leaves the “choice” to one’s poorly formed conscience. Abortion is not a choice and it doesn nothing to help these women in these circumstances, it just makes their problems worse.

I think the cart is before the horse so to speak. People are objectified more than ever because of the contraceptive mentality IMHO.

 

[fix]

I have read the posts carefully. What could it be that causes these people to not recognize abortion as evil? Maybe the fact that it even exists causes people to to not recognize it as evil. It is a choice to have an abortion. No one forces women to have one regardless of circumstance. It exists, and because it is legal, it is implicitly condoned by society.

Further justifications, like, it is a person’s circumstance, leaves the “choice” to one’s poorly formed conscience. Abortion is not a choice and it doesn nothing to help these women in these circumstances, it just makes their problems worse.

I think the cart is before the horse so to speak. People are objectified more than ever because of the contraceptive mentality IMHO.

What a great post. I think you have summed it up very well.

 

[seekerz]

Condemnation without compassion will never stop murder, rape, robbery or large-scale drug sales. But no one applies that argument to those crimes.

The fact that they don’t tells us something – too many people consider abortion as semi-respectable. In other circumstances, those people would be called “enablers” – they offer rationalle and excuses for those who drink, use drugs (and have abortions.)

You are not the only person who has come face-to-face with reality. And that does not excuse the pre-meditated murder of the most helpless and innocent amongst us.

Youi are not the only person who has heard and seen abuse at first hand. That doesn’t excuse murder.

You aren’t the only person who has seen people living in poverty. That doesn’t excuse murder.

I meet a lot of women in that condition – I’m Secretary of our local Right-to-Live Committee and deal with them regularly.

Nobody’s saying circumstances excuse abortion - it’s wrong, plain and simple. But the only way to conquer it is to convince those who have this option legally available to them ( In that sense they are different from others who commit other crimes) is to try to understand why they see this as a way out.

Without compassion (the same qualities Christ showed all sinnners) we’ll never convince them not to choose death.

 

[pnewton]

Condemnation without compassion will never stop abortion.

And compassion without condemnation only affirms people in their mortal sin. I do not think anyone is suggesting that we cease to be compassionate and open to repentance. But repentance must start with recognition of sin, not avoidance of responsibility.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Nobody’s saying circumstances excuse abortion - it’s wrong, plain and simple. But the only way to conquer it is to convince those who have this option legally available to them ( In that sense they are different from others who commit other crimes) is to try to understand why they see this as a way out.

Without compassion (the same qualities Christ showed all sinnners) we’ll never convince them not to choose death.

As long as abortion remains legal, socially acceptable and convenient, we will never make headway against it. Only when we forthrightly proclaim it for what it is – the premeditaded murder of the most helpless and innocent – can we begin to bring it under control.

Do not mistake excusing or diminishing this grisly crime for compassion. Compassion is reserved for individuals, not for social movements that spread death and destruction.

 

[chevalier]

Perhaps by removing a requirement after requirement as a matter of sexual and other “liberations” we’ve given up what makes us so distinctly human? Maybe that’s what obfuscates the image of God in us?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Perhaps by removing a requirement after requirement as a matter of sexual and other “liberations” we’ve given up what makes us so distinctly human? Maybe that’s what obfuscates the image of God in us?

Daniel Patrick Monihan, rest his soul, called this “Defining deviency down.” He saw how, sometimes with very good intentions, we redefined serious sins as lesser offenses, found excuses for those who committed them, and then embarked on another round of lowering our moral standards, and on and on.

 

[seekerz]

Compassion is reserved for individuals, not for social movements that spread death and destruction.

Exactly my point, even while condemning in the strongest possible terms, the murder of the unborn, we are still called to have compassion for the individuals who procure abortions.

When I look at my own of record of mortal transgression, despite the luxuries of a good Catholic upbringing and an education virtually within the walls of a convent, I cannot help but feel compassion for those who have to navigate life with neither. Whither their moral compass?

If I am called to provide that compass, it’s with one overwhelming thought:…“There, but for the grace of God, go I…”

 

[chevalier]

That would be love the sinner, hate the sin, but do hate the sin, no?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Exactly my point, even while condemning in the strongest possible terms, the murder of the unborn, we are still called to have compassion for the individuals who procure abortions.

When I look at my own of record of mortal transgression, despite the luxuries of a good Catholic upbringing and an education virtually within the walls of a convent, I cannot help but feel compassion for those who have to navigate life with neither. Whither their moral compass?

If I am called to provide that compass, it’s with one overwhelming thought:…“There, but for the grace of God, go I…”

I think the same thing when I pass the local prison. But I don’t make up excuses for the murderers and rapists inside – nor do I minimize their crimes.

 

[seekerz]

I haven’t seen any minimizing going on here.

The point is, even if I thought prison is where these women belong, the law as it stands does not agree, so my only option is to approach them in a manner that can win them over - and an attitude of compassion is more likely to work. Compassion doesn’t mean patting them on the back as in “you poor soul, I understand why you have to do this”. No, it means putting myself in their shoes at the point where they are and showing a different way forward in the love of Christ.

I guess what I’m trying to say is just what was said earlier in this thread: the real solution is evangelisation. Trying to apply Christian morality to the unconverted heart is like binding up a dirty wound and expecting it to heal.

Getting Roe v. Wade overturned would decrease the number of abortions, but it wouldn’t necessarily change society’s perception of the life’s value. Only an encounter with God can do that.