I've been thinking.... abortion isn't the problem

[Texas_Roofer]

Really?

If contraceptives are present in your house does that changes you?
Or is it if contraceptives are in a pharmacy does that change you?
Or is it if contraceptives are legal does that change you?

And most important since it changes you it must be illegal for me?

 

[seekerz]

Really?

If contraceptives are present in your house does that changes you?
Or is it if contraceptives are in a pharmacy does that change you?
Or is it if contraceptives are legal does that change you?

And most important since it changes you it must be illegal for me?

No sure I get what you’re saying here.

 

[Jennifer123]

Really?

If contraceptives are present in your house does that changes you?
Or is it if contraceptives are in a pharmacy does that change you?
Or is it if contraceptives are legal does that change you?

And most important since it changes you it must be illegal for me?

No one is saying contraceptives should be illegal, in a perfect world they would be and every religious denomination condemed its use until the 20th century when Catholicism became the only Christian denomination to do so, but certainly abortion should be. Since when should a society condone the murder of innocents for convenience?

Contraceptives do change us - they rob us of our inherent moral dignity as human beings and turn us into objects of desire and lust. They do that to you, and they do that to me, regardless of whether I use them or not. I still am a part of society, I am still a woman that has to bear the sin of society. We aren’t alone, we are interconnected and individual sin affects us all regardless of belief.

 

[Grace_Angel]

I guess I do not understand your post? If the current abortion rate in the US is >2,000,000, and we educated everybody resulting in (theoretically) zero unplanned/unwanted pregnancies in the year 2012 then how many abortions would you expect in 2012 ?

Texas Roofer to answer your question, I would say that the abortion rate in USA by 2012 will be about 2 1/2 million.
How has you educated everyone for zero unplanned pregnanacy? What has been the ducation?
Have you educated for chastity before marriage and fidelity aftr marriage? Have you educated that contrac eption is the root cause of abortion and euthanasia, and the culture of death. Have you educated that when tghe woman first said NO to life BUT yes to active sexuality at any time (irrespective of age or marriage) any place, then you opened the door to abortion. Have you educated that the child in the womb is a human being just smaller in size? have you educated that woman has become just a object for use and then, well whatever.
What have you educated for texas roofer?
Whatever you educated for is the result you will get.
Since RoevWade now 2 million abortions? why? because R v W declared that a child in the womb is not human. R v W removed the humanity of the child and it became disposable waste and will continue to be disposable waste until you say NO MORE. A child in the womb is a human in its earliest stages of formation. It deserves every respect possible a human. Return the humanity to the child in the womb. Start by calling it a child and not a embryo, foetus, cell, tissue, mesntrual extraction, Start by calling it a child as it has been since time immemorial. I think I might stop here.
Grace Angel.

 

[Grace_Angel]

No sure I get what you’re saying here.

Seekerz Texas roofer is playing word games with you. He/she knows exactly what is meant.

Texas Roofer, you may or may not be dumb but please dont play us for dumb either.
The contraception mentality has changed both the mentality of the woman and the male. The contraception mentality has divorced the sexual act from love, fidelity, marriage, stability, children, and placed the sexual act into a place, I will do with with whom I want when I want, how I want and nothing will happen (the woman) and for the man, “I dont have to be responsbile any more she is taking the pill, its her responsibility and if it goes wrong she can get rid of it.”
Texas roofer you know what is being spoken about.
Contraception may not be legally wrong, but morally, it opened the door wide to the demonic.
Grace Angel.

 

[Island_Oak]

But, Vern, why would a woman make such an evil choice?

Because she doesn’t think the life inside her has any inherent worth. Because she doesn’t think she has any inherent worth, apart from her capacity to earn money, keep a husband/boyfriend who may not want the child…

It’s the attitude ingrained in our culture that is the source of most of the social injustices in our society, including abortion that is the problem. All the other problems stem from the objectification of human beings in general.

This topic is timely and relates to a rather surprising conversation I had with one of my kids the other day. I was describing the daughter of some family friends who is profoundly handicapped as the result of a birth injury. This child is essentially non-functioning: seemingly unaware of and unresponsive to her environment, unable to move, speak, bite/chew/swallow, etc. My daughter’s response? “Then what is the point of her being alive?” I can’t tell if this reflects something cultural or a highly pragmatic/childish response to such a profound disability.

 

[urban-hermit]

… This child is essentially non-functioning: seemingly unaware of and unresponsive to her environment, unable to move, speak, bite/chew/swallow, etc. My daughter’s response? “Then what is the point of her being alive?” …

Out of the mouths of babes, right? I think it’s natural to feel that way when we see somebody profoundly handicapped. Aside from the fact that we can never be sure what is going on inside the soul of a person who seems not to be functioning, for me I think that God allows such things to bring out in us high-functioning individuals more of the love and virtue we are capable of but may not show unless we have to. I’ve heard we are given strength in order to lift up the weak and I think that’s true. Handicapped individuals in my family, and friends’ families seem to bear this out. God knows what He is doing, even when we feel we might be “better off dead”.

And so it goes with the topic at hand. The life is there from conception. It may be challenging to see it through and have the baby, but the other “choice” is to quietly snuff out the child to avoid the challenge. Not a valid choice. Especially in a society that can find billions of dollars for all kinds of things when it wants to.

To those who are worried that criminalizing abortion will criminalize women, I don’t agree. It’s simply that at some point we must be honest about a reality that is already plainly there. It sounds harsh, and there may be better ways to say it, but if you kill your child you are a murderer. You’re not a “good person”. If you didn’t understand what you were doing, were pressured, … - all the many horribly effective and totally frequent circumstances which force a woman (and man) into doing this - then your guilt is mitigated. The good news is, forgiveness is available, through repentance. Through ongoing repentance we are all becoming “good people”. But repentance requires that we first see what we have done wrong.

It’s not our job to judge how culpable an individual is. It is our job to fight for laws that say killing is wrong. Abortion should be illegal. Period. Of course we must also continue finding better ways to provide everything possible to help the problem: from teaching men and women chastity (not birth control) to providing for the “unwanted” babies and their parents with material assistance. There are ways to get things done. We’re a resourceful people and we’re blessed with great wealth. What we need is a clear vision and determination.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Really?

If contraceptives are present in your house does that changes you?
Or is it if contraceptives are in a pharmacy does that change you?
Or is it if contraceptives are legal does that change you?

And most important since it changes you it must be illegal for me?

Forty years ago, someone asked me, “How does it hurt you if someone else takes drugs?”

I didn’t have a good answer.

Forty years ago, someone asked me, “How does it hurt you if someone else has a child out of wedlock?”

I didn’t have a good answer.

But come with me today, into our slums, and I will show you the strung-out junkies, the children raised by drug-addicted single mothers, the crime, the illiteracy, the crushing, intractable poverty.

If I could go back forty years, you can bet I’d be able to answer those questions!

 

[Jennifer123]

“Then what is the point of her being alive?” I can’t tell if this reflects something cultural or a highly pragmatic/childish response to such a profound disability.

I think it depends on the age of the child whether it is society’s modeling or just childish curiousity, but certainly a wonderful opportunity regardless to teach her about the sanctity of life.

I too think about why God allows these things to occur but we do live in a fallen world, and I agree with urban-hermit that this is an opportunity for us to exercize a great amount of grace when we are given opportunity to care for those less fortunate.

That is why, to me, it is that much more tragic that we as a society fully acknowledge we’d rather kill these people off than have to extend a certain amount of charity and protection.

 

[seekerz]

To those who are worried that criminalizing abortion will criminalize women, I don’t agree. It’s simply that at some point we must be honest about a reality that is already plainly there. It sounds harsh, and there may be better ways to say it, but if you kill your child you are a murderer. You’re not a “good person”. If you didn’t understand what you were doing, were pressured, … - all the many horribly effective and totally frequent circumstances which force a woman (and man) into doing this - then your guilt is mitigated. The good news is, forgiveness is available, through repentance. Through ongoing repentance we are all becoming “good people”. But repentance requires that we first see what we have done wrong.
.

What you say is so true: people have to be brought to repentance and that’s by preaching (and modelling) the Gospel to them. Simply pointing out sin will have no effect if the person committing it has no sense of sin or fear of God; we have to help them acquire that sense of sin by bringing them to Him.

It’s like the starter of this thread pointed out: there is a deeper problem here than abortion (or euthanasia or any other manifestation of lack of respect for life) - I call it godlessness.
That needs to be addressed with all our resources, till then we’ll just be hacking at the branches rather than rooting out evil in our society.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

With all due respect, I think some of y’all are missing the basic point of the original post, and what some of the rest of us have had to say about it. Not one single person who has posted so far has said that abortion is ok, or that it should remain legal, or that it is not evil, or that the people who participate in abortions are not participating in evil. No one has said anything like that at all.

We understand that abortion is evil!! Honest, we do.

What we have said is that abortion (along with the other evils that we have mentioned) is a symptom of a larger problem. That problem being our failure to recognize each and every human person as a creature of infinite worth and dignity created in the image and likeness of God.

Do you agree or disagree with that proposition?

 

[seekerz]

With all due respect, I think some of y’all are missing the basic point of the original post, and what some of the rest of us have had to say about it. Not one single person who has posted so far has said that abortion is ok, or that it should remain legal, or that it is not evil, or that the people who participate in abortions are not participating in evil. No one has said anything like that at all.

We understand that abortion is evil!! Honest, we do.

What we have said is that abortion (along with the other evils that we have mentioned) is a symptom of a larger problem. That problem being our failure to recognize each and every human person as a creature of infinite worth and dignity created in the image and likeness of God.

Do you agree or disagree with that proposition?

I totally agree and by extension of that reasoning, when I as a Christian, fail to treat each and every person as above I’m contributing to the problem. Which is why I think there’s a certain amount of culpability to be shared by us all.

For example, read this thread.

In the same way scripture tells us it’s not enough to preach to a hungry man then send him away empty, it’s not enough to say “don’t abort them” then fail to actively seek ways to include the disabled in our everyday lives.

 

[urban-hermit]

With all due respect, I think some of y’all are missing the basic point of the original post, and what some of the rest of us have had to say about it. Not one single person who has posted so far has said that abortion is ok, or that it should remain legal, or that it is not evil, or that the people who participate in abortions are not participating in evil. No one has said anything like that at all.

We understand that abortion is evil!! Honest, we do.

What we have said is that abortion (along with the other evils that we have mentioned) is a symptom of a larger problem. That problem being our failure to recognize each and every human person as a creature of infinite worth and dignity created in the image and likeness of God.

Do you agree or disagree with that proposition?

Yes, I agree, all sin is a symptom of a larger problem. As you rightly say, “our failure to recognize each and every human person as a creature of infinite worth and dignity created in the image and likeness of God” is the underlying problem.

What I think needs emphasizing is that framing the problem mainly in terms of the primacy of personal autonomy, and merely dis-incentivizing and discouraging killing unborn children, as good as that is, without also censuring it boldly by whatever non-sinful means we have at our disposal, whether people want to have abortions or not, is why we are in this mess.

I applaud anybody who includes the disabled in their daily lives in some way. Tries to make them feel good about themselves. I applaud that sincerely. But let’s not forget that today while you were doing that, over 3,000 unborn children were torn limb from limb in utero by abortionists paid by their own parents (or possibly my tax dollars and yours).

We have to keep our perspective.

Look at the title of this thread:

I’ve been thinking… abortion isn’t the problem.

Do you agree or disagree with that proposition?

 

[Jennifer123]

We understand that abortion is evil!! Honest, we do.

What we have said is that abortion (along with the other evils that we have mentioned) is a symptom of a larger problem. That problem being our failure to recognize each and every human person as a creature of infinite worth and dignity created in the image and likeness of God.

Do you agree or disagree with that proposition?

I can speak for myself here and say Legal that I just find some of your responses as a sort of justification due to circumstances, etc. That is not to say I think you aren’t against abortion, because you have stated many times that you are against it, so please don’t me wrong. But it seems a bit relativistic, please correct me though if I have the wrong impression.

IMHO some things are just so abominable that we can’t wait to sort out circumstances (in a general sense, not talking about relating to persons here). It just needs to be stopped, and then we can continue evangelizing the culture. It just seems that trying to raise consciousness about our inherent human dignity while the “white noise” of infanticide is in the background seems, in my mind, a losing battle.

I also argue that on a “macro” level, in regards to your proposition, that the contraceptive and eugenic mentality, born in the late 19th century via Sanger and her ilk, was the ultimate beginning for the real downfall of the sense of human dignity we see now. Just my opinion.

 

[urban-hermit]

I can speak for myself here and say Legal that I just find some of your responses as a sort of justification due to circumstances, etc. That is not to say I think you aren’t against abortion, because you have stated many times that you are against it, so please don’t me wrong. But it seems a bit relativistic, please correct me though if I have the wrong impression.

IMHO some things are just so abominable that we can’t wait to sort out circumstances (in a general sense, not talking about relating to persons here). It just needs to be stopped, and then we can continue evangelizing the culture. It just seems that trying to raise consciousness about our inherent human dignity while the “white noise” of infanticide is in the background seems, in my mind, a losing battle.

I also argue that on a “macro” level, in regards to your proposition, that the contraceptive and eugenic mentality, born in the late 19th century via Sanger and her ilk, was the ultimate beginning for the real downfall of the sense of human dignity we see now. Just my opinion.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Forty years ago, someone asked me, “How does it hurt you if someone else takes drugs?”

I didn’t have a good answer.

Forty years ago, someone asked me, “How does it hurt you if someone else has a child out of wedlock?”

I didn’t have a good answer.

But come with me today, into our slums, and I will show you the strung-out junkies, the children raised by drug-addicted single mothers, the crime, the illiteracy, the crushing, intractable poverty.

If I could go back forty years, you can bet I’d be able to answer those questions!

So answer it now. Explain how ***you ***can control their action. Are these people using illegal drugs, have they done jail time? so making the drug illegal did not prevent the problem, nor the jail time. Tell me why you should make these laws and push them on me. Explain how your answers will increase and decrease my action (use of drugs, contraception, etc, etc.)

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Texas Roofer to answer your question, I would say that the abortion rate in USA by 2012 will be about 2 1/2 million.
How has you educated everyone for zero unplanned pregnanacy? What has been the ducation?
Have you educated for chastity before marriage and fidelity aftr marriage? Have you educated that contrac eption is the root cause of abortion and euthanasia, and the culture of death. Have you educated that when tghe woman first said NO to life BUT yes to active sexuality at any time (irrespective of age or marriage) any place, then you opened the door to abortion. Have you educated that the child in the womb is a human being just smaller in size? have you educated that woman has become just a object for use and then, well whatever.
What have you educated for texas roofer?
Whatever you educated for is the result you will get.
Since RoevWade now 2 million abortions? why? because R v W declared that a child in the womb is not human. R v W removed the humanity of the child and it became disposable waste and will continue to be disposable waste until you say NO MORE. A child in the womb is a human in its earliest stages of formation. It deserves every respect possible a human. Return the humanity to the child in the womb. Start by calling it a child and not a embryo, foetus, cell, tissue, mesntrual extraction, Start by calling it a child as it has been since time immemorial. I think I might stop here.
Grace Angel.

Seekerz Texas roofer is playing word games with you. He/she knows exactly what is meant.

Texas Roofer, you may or may not be dumb but please dont play us for dumb either.
The contraception mentality has changed both the mentality of the woman and the male. The contraception mentality has divorced the sexual act from love, fidelity, marriage, stability, children, and placed the sexual act into a place, I will do with with whom I want when I want, how I want and nothing will happen (the woman) and for the man, “I dont have to be responsbile any more she is taking the pill, its her responsibility and if it goes wrong she can get rid of it.”
Texas roofer you know what is being spoken about.
Contraception may not be legally wrong, but morally, it opened the door wide to the demonic.
Grace Angel.

Thank you for openly sharing Grace Angel however there are some issues displayed here. First when a person educates this is a process of teaching what is known, what is believed and what is theorized. Education is not in doctoring one with personal opinions. Second, Natural Moral} Law confirms what we know which is right and wrong come from with in not from the outside. Legislation does not change us, nor do contraceptives or abortion. Abortion has been legal my entire adult life so how many did I participate in? None, I simply believe it to be wrong. Many drugs are illegal so are they absent? No Marijuana, crack, Meth, etc are every where. So does that make me a drug user? No. And abortion supporter? No. If some one wants drugs they will get them, if some one wants an abortion they will make it happen. We should teach right from wrong and educate everyone, which leads to control of no one. They control themselves and always have.

 

[seekerz]

The only factor that keeps us from indulging in all the wrong things mentioned above is our relationship with God. Which is why the original thread title is very true: abortion isn’t the real problem. The real problem is lack of a right relationship with God. Which is why the only true, lasting solution is evangelization.

Changing laws will help, but people who really want to abort will find ways to do so - they always have. The only true solution is to bring them to Christ.

I’ve heard that in countries where abortion is illegal, medical personnel and abortion seekers find sneaky ways around the law (e.g bogus diagnoses to provide a legally allowed justification). Brings us back to the original point: the real problem is a need for conversion, the real solution is evangelization.

 

[vern_humphrey]

With all due respect, I think some of y’all are missing the basic point of the original post, and what some of the rest of us have had to say about it. Not one single person who has posted so far has said that abortion is ok, or that it should remain legal, or that it is not evil, or that the people who participate in abortions are not participating in evil. No one has said anything like that at all.

We understand that abortion is evil!! Honest, we do.

What we have said is that abortion (along with the other evils that we have mentioned) is a symptom of a larger problem. That problem being our failure to recognize each and every human person as a creature of infinite worth and dignity created in the image and likeness of God.

Do you agree or disagree with that proposition?

I disagree, for the following reasons:

1. Anything that kills four times as many innocent people (to date) as died in the Holocaust and continues to kill cannot be a mere symptom. It is the problem.
2. The “larger problem” philosophy is the philosophy of failure.

“We can’t improve our schools until society improves. Education is part of a larger problem.”

“We can’t reduce crime until society improves. Crime is part of a larger problem.”

“We can’t make a dent in drug abuse until society improves. Drug abuse is part of a larger problem.”

1. The constant insistance that there is a “larger problem” removes all personal responsibility from any issue.

“I don’t need to study, or make my kids study. Education is part of a larger problem that I can’t solve.”

“How can I get off drugs or keep my kids off drugs? Drug abuse is part of a larger problem that I can’t solve.”

“Why shouldn’t I pick up a little easy money on the side? Crime is part of a larger problem that I can’t solve.”

 

[seafarer]

here is a bit of data which should encourage the pro life movement. in 1970 USA population was 215,973,000 people. The number of legal abortions were around 586,000 while illegal abortions are estimated at around 1,200,000. that puts the total number of yearly abortions at 0.00827% of the population. In 2007 the USA population was 301,797,386 people while the number of total abortions now stands at 1,400,000 per year. That puts the yearly rate of abortions at 0.00464% of the population. If you compare those two rates it estimates that the current abortion rate is 56% of what it was pre roe vs wade. I thinks this shows that for what ever reason(pro life activity, religious revival, larger catholic hispanic population with more traditional family values, i dont know) has been successfull to the point of reducing abortions in the United States of America by almost half.