J. Lo and the "Lowdown" on Fur

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Dear Wabrams,

Did you not read my quote from Dave Scott? I guess you don’t have to be healthy to win the Ironman, since he is a vegetarian and according to your analysis (“well, everyone vegetarian or vegan I’ve seen was really thin…”- why don’t you publish that?) all vegetarians are unhealthy. Do you think it any healthier to be overweight or obese?Do you think the massive meat consumption in the U.S. might have, just might have, caused the weight problem in the U.S. (i.e. 1/3 of all adults and quite a few children?).
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Wabrams,

Did you not read my quote from Dave Scott? I guess you don’t have to be healthy to win the Ironman, since he is a vegetarian and according to your analysis (“well, everyone vegetarian or vegan I’ve seen was really thin…”- why don’t you publish that?) all vegetarians are unhealthy. Do you think it any healthier to be overweight or obese?Do you think the massive meat consumption in the U.S. might have, just might have, caused the weight problem in the U.S. (i.e. 1/3 of all adults and quite a few children?).
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No because so many people are on Atkins or other protein diets and “massive meat consumption” causes weight LOSS not gain. We are fat because we eat too much of everything and exercise too little. THink of how much more sedentary today’s kids are vis a vis when we were young. I see lots of fat kids and believe me they aren’t eating lots of meat they are eating sweetened drinks, fried food, fast food and have no acquaintence with vegetables.

As to vegans being unhealthy, while it is POSSIBLE to get all of the necessary amino acids and other nutrients using a very careful balance of plant proteins, it is a LOT of work, takes a LOT of time and quite honestly most vegans don’t bother. There are numerous unfortunate side effects of these unbalanced diets including lack of energy, low iron, and a false Alzheimers caused by the brain being starved for protein.

Humans are designed to be omnivores, not vegetarian. Look at the construction of our teeth and where our eyes are placed on our heads. Compare that to animals that are non-meat eaters and tell me we were designed to graze or forage for food.

LIsa N
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Wabrams,

Did you not read my quote from Dave Scott? I guess you don’t have to be healthy to win the Ironman, since he is a vegetarian and according to your analysis (“well, everyone vegetarian or vegan I’ve seen was really thin…”- why don’t you publish that?) all vegetarians are unhealthy. Do you think it any healthier to be overweight or obese?Do you think the massive meat consumption in the U.S. might have, just might have, caused the weight problem in the U.S. (i.e. 1/3 of all adults and quite a few children?).
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I don’t see how you can say eating meat caused the problem. Are you suggesting that 20-30 years ago we ate less meat? How about before that? Meat has been a staple for a long time. However, the fried culture of fast food, high calorie sweets, misc junk food and soda is more recent. Of course gluttony and sloth are prime on the list. To say our weight crisis is just because of meat is ridiculous. I’m sure you don’t mean that. Oh, are you also saying there is no such thing as an overweight vegetarian? Anyone who doesn’t eat right, excersize or take care of themselves is open to obesity. Depending on what level of vegitarian you are it could be much harder to become overweight, but not impossible…

John
 
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Catholicvegan:
Jennifer Lopez’s new fashion line features the skin of dead animals. No one should be wearing this, and it is awful that she has to show it off whenever she goes somewhere. Don’t support this, and don’t support the cruel fur industry by buying and wearing fur! If you would like more information, please, visit these websites:
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This is absolutely ridiculous. Will you next be banning the use of disinfectant because it kills all those cute little microbes?
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear ByzCath,
As a vegan and animal rights supporter, I have heard numerous futile arguments for the wearing of fur/eating of meat, and in support of similar cruelties.
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You make an assumption here, which is normal for those of your crowd, that if I choose to eat meat and wear clothing made from animals that I support cruelties.
These questions are designed to “turn the tables” on the person, and put them on the spot.
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Which is the same exact thing that you do in all your posts and in the answer you have provided to my question.
Anyway, to answer your question: since plants lack a central nervous system, there is no reason to believe that they can feel pain.
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You can not prove that to feel pain a central nervous system is necessary. A plant will move towards sunlight and I believe it will move away from something that is harmful.

Animals are not equal to man. I could suggest that an animal does not feel pain as it is not sentient. That to feel pain as we do requries a level of intelligence an animal does not have.

Anyways as has been pointed out, man is an omnivore, this is how we were created.

Also this is not a moral issue. Animals have been placed under mans dominion. Yes we should not be cruel but that cruelty does not rise to the level of immorality.
 
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wabrams:
You might not need meat to survive, but I’ve never met a vegan or vegetarian who looked healthy. They all are supermodel thin and have this wierd gray color to their skin.
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It’s funny to me that wabrams made a rediculously ignorant blanket statement and almost no one is saying anything, yet Catholicvegan’s opinions are being attacked–great Catholic forum.

Oh, by the way wabrams, I’m a vegatarian, and a healthy triathalete plus, I don’t think my skin looks too gray.
It’s not too hard to eat well as a vegitarian, contrary to some of the responses here.
 
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ByzCath:
Also this is not a moral issue. Animals have been placed under mans dominion. Yes we should not be cruel but that cruelty does not rise to the level of immorality.
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Oh great!! Cruelty isn’t a moral issue! Let’s all be cruel then.

To say that stewardship of God’s creation (i.e. not being “cruel” to it) is not immoral is simply absurd.
 
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Scottyp:
Catholicvegan’s opinions are being attacked–great Catholic forum.
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If someone’s opinon’s are perceived to be ignorant and wrong (re: support of PETA), I see no reason why they should not be set right, Catholic or not.
 
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Scottyp:
It’s funny to me that wabrams made a rediculously ignorant blanket statement and almost no one is saying anything, yet Catholicvegan’s opinions are being attacked–great Catholic forum.

Oh, by the way wabrams, I’m a vegatarian, and a healthy triathalete plus, I don’t think my skin looks too gray.
It’s not too hard to eat well as a vegitarian, contrary to some of the responses here.
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Well, good for you. You’ll be the first one I’ve met (semi) who hasn’t looked like they came out of a concentration camp.
 
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wabrams:
Well, good for you. You’ll be the first one I’ve met (semi) who hasn’t looked like they came out of a concentration camp.
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Whadyaknow, something we agree on (semi).👍
 
I too, have a leather jacket, shoes, purse and belts that I love.

I believe some people focus more on animal rights than on human rights. All this controversy while babies die, people get euthanized, and Terri Schiavo’s life lies in a delicate state.
 
Here’s the thing,
Yes, of course human life takes precidence–of course Terri Schiavo, the abortion issue and numerous other things are primary.
But just because something is primary doesn’t mean that nothing else matters!!!

–This is what many Protestants say–Jesus is primary, so forget about Mary. Of course Jesus is primary, but that doesn’t mean Mary and all the Saints are worthless.

Jesus came to redeem ALL of our fallenness.
Virtue, by the way starts small–remember “he who is faithful in little things…”
 
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StratusRose:
There’s a thin line between killing animals for food and wearing their fur for fashion. Eating them provides us with essential nutrients that sustains life, but I have never heard of anyone dying from not wearing a fur coat. Killing an animal for fashion means is wrong and frivolous. No one is “shoving” beliefs down anyone’s throat just because they disagree with this horrible practice.
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How is killing an animal for fashion different from eating a steak for a craving? We can all get by on soybeans, can’t we?

The holier-than-thou attitude of the animal rights groups makes me gag. We can’t drink milk because it hurts cows? Obviously these folks have never seen a cow or they would know that they HAVE to be milked. Don’t eat chickens because killing them is cruel? Spend some time on a farm. Chickens are not domesticated animals. They’re chickens for Pete’s sake!!

Wearing fur for warmth is fine. Humans have been doing it since the dawn of time. And, speaking of which, early man would have died had he not worn fur.
 
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Catholicvegan:
Jennifer Lopez’s new fashion line features the skin of dead animals. No one should be wearing this, and it is awful that she has to show it off whenever she goes somewhere. Don’t support this, and don’t support the cruel fur industry by buying and wearing fur! If you would like more information, please, visit these websites:

jlodown.com

furisdead.com

peta.org
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There is no moral issue involved in wearing fur or not wearing fur.
 
Dear Condan,

I think that you have no idea about the way animal rights groups are. Ironically, you are acting “holier-than-thou” yourself by stereotyping these groups. The reality is that you, like most Americans, have been led to believe (by the meat and dairy industry) that meat and dairy products are essential for decent health. Yet we look at the country: some teenagers have arteries that are so clogged we wonder how old they really are. The obesity rate is enormous, and who can be blamed? The meat and dairy industries. And since you obviously don’t care for the well-being of animals, consider this:
  • Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
  • Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million
  • Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
    *- *Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
  • Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
  • Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
  • How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds
  • Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000
  • Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250
  • Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
  • Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef: 16
Perhaps, the fate of millions who hunger will move you. Meat kills. In so many ways, meat kills.

Dear gnjsdad,

There is a moral argument, and you are ignorant of it.
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Condan,

I think that you have no idea about the way animal rights groups are. Ironically, you are acting “holier-than-thou” yourself by stereotyping these groups. The reality is that you, like most Americans, have been led to believe (by the meat and dairy industry) that meat and dairy products are essential for decent health. Yet we look at the country: some teenagers have arteries that are so clogged we wonder how old they really are. The obesity rate is enormous, and who can be blamed? The meat and dairy industries. And since you obviously don’t care for the well-being of animals, consider this:

- Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
- Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million
- Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
***- ***Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
- Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
- Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
- How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds
- Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000
- Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250
- Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
- Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef: 16
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Thanks Kreskin.

I eat neither meat nor dairy for health reasons but believe that people have the right to do so if they want to. I get my protein primarily from soy in its many splendid forms. I spend a lot of time on a farm and understand quite well how animals live and how crops are grown and for whom. Further, I keep three animals in my home. Still, I have no problem with wearing fur. Its a matter of choice.

As for your stats, children die of malnutrition because their governments are corrupt and don’t let the aid that the United States and the United Nations send actually get to their people. And, as for the 40,000 lbs of potatos per acre: Do you remember what happened the last time a people depended on the potato as their sustenance crop? Here’s a tip: People dying on the roads with green mouths from eating grass isn’t a pretty picture.
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Condan,

I think that you have no idea about the way animal rights groups are. Ironically, you are acting “holier-than-thou” yourself by stereotyping these groups. The reality is that you, like most Americans, have been led to believe (by the meat and dairy industry) that meat and dairy products are essential for decent health. Yet we look at the country: some teenagers have arteries that are so clogged we wonder how old they really are. The obesity rate is enormous, and who can be blamed? The meat and dairy industries. And since you obviously don’t care for the well-being of animals, consider this:
  • Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
  • Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million
  • Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
    *- *Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
  • Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
  • Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
  • How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds
  • Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000
  • Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250
  • Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
  • Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef: 16
Perhaps, the fate of millions who hunger will move you. Meat kills. In so many ways, meat kills.

Dear gnjsdad,

There is a moral argument, and you are ignorant of it.
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CV people starve because of corrupt governments and ridiculous environmental whackos who refuse to allow genetically engineered food although there has never been any documentation that there are any ill effects from GE food.

You’ve conveniently ignored the reality that heavy meat/protein diets cause weight LOSS not gain. People are fat in this country because they eat a lot of hydrogenated fat, low fiber starches and white sugar not because they eat too much meat. In fact it is the lower socioeconomic groups that tend to be the most obese and they are not eating excessive amounts of meat, it’s simply too expensive.

Also it is rather irrelevant that you could feed X million people on potatoes. A potato is not a complete food, is low in protein and depending on the variety, doesn’t have enough vitamins to dust a lamp.

People need PROTEIN CV, and one of the most efficient ways to get complete protein is to eat meat.

Lisa N
 
Dear Condan,

Is the “farm” you claim to have been at a factory farm? A big slaughterhouse? Or a little barn with some animals? Please clarify for me. Also, you can go on about corrupt governments if you please but the facts have been presented and you cannot deny them as a testimony to the waste and greed of the U.S. meat industry.

Dear Lisa N,

In regards to your health remarks, with the rise of the whole Atkins diet, it might help one lose weight, but at what cost? Your cholesterol will skyrocket, and numerous other side effects will occur. People do need protein to survive, but your claim that the “most complete” source is meat is simply ridiculous. Did you not see my previous post about that very matter? Please refer to that.
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Condan,

I think that you have no idea about the way animal rights groups are. Ironically, you are acting “holier-than-thou” yourself by stereotyping these groups.
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Any organization that promotes it’s agenda with press releases denouncing rabbit fur with statements like *“the bunnies scream when they are skinned alive” *(note use of the word “bunnies”) is not to be taken seriously, nor supported.
 
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