J. Lo and the "Lowdown" on Fur

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Well, it seems my one little post has certainly got some people reassuring themselves and each other that eating meat and wearing fur is okay! Well, I’m here to tell you that the EXACT OPPOSITE is true. Allow me to respond to each of you one at a time:

Dear Condan,

It is quite interesting that you feel that people are “infinitely more important” than animals. Why is this? Because you, like nearly everyone else here, have trouble showing compassion for anything but your fellow humans. I don’t know if you have trouble indentifying pain in an animal, but it occurs extremely often. As to your remarks about the U.S. industry, I was referring to it because that is where I live and it makes sense to use that term as the “U.S. meat indsutry” is the direct meat supplier to most Americans. Also, the U.S. meat industry has been known to pump it’s food so full of drugs to promote rapid, unnatural growth, that many foreign governments refuse to accept it. In conclusion, Condan, you can say about want about “dominion over animals” but I ask you: a mother has dominion over her child, yes? And the mother, therefore, protects and cares for the child, right? Shouldn’t we treat ALL animals (not just those who are “pets”) with kindness? Or should we exploit some and care for others? In some Asian countries, you know, people eat dog. Here, that would be a crime, a literal crime. But here we do the same they do to dogs to chickens, pigs, cows and turkeys. If all people are created equal, then why not all animals?

Dear Legeorge,

I am glad that you, unlike others here, don’t throw out my opinions, which may seem a bit extreme to some. However, I didn’t neccesarily insinuate that giving up meat would end world hunger completely, rather, I meant that it was be a large positive step toward doing so. Also, fur isn’t neccesary for warmth and protection against the cold, because we have other alternatives that are probably much more inexpensive, durable, and have the potential to keep up warm. But, obviously, I am not opposed to fake fur.

Dear Lisa N,

You say I have no credibility about health. I guess that whenever someone says something you don’t want to hear, you question their credibility. I suppose that’s in imitation of our wonderful President. But then, you know what they say: imitation is the sincerest form of flattering!

Dear Catholic90,

I was talking from personal experience, as I know several people who have left the diet because of health problems and other unwanted “side-effects.” Also, do you speak from experience when making your claims about the (alleged) positive “side-effects” of the Atkins diet? Please explain.

Dear Scott LaFrance,

Your jokes don’t amuse me much, and they are simply further proof of your obvious ignorance to animal cruelty in this world. Or, perhaps you are knowlegeable of it and simply don’t care or are denying that it occurs. Wouldn’t that be a shame! In any event, Mr. LaFrance, perhaps you wouldn’t laugh if you actually understood what animals must go through to become a coat or a meal.

Just a general note to everyone: if you don’t believe my accusations, please view some of the videos at the following sites:

“Meet Your Meat”: meetyourmeat.com

“J Lodown”: peta.org

If you questions the content of any of these videos, which you undoubtedly will, go ahead and ask me or anyone else you feel the need to.
 
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Catholicvegan:
Well, it seems my one little post has certainly got some people reassuring themselves and each other that eating meat and wearing fur is okay! Well, I’m here to tell you that the EXACT OPPOSITE is true. Allow me to respond to each of you one at a time:

Dear Condan,

It is quite interesting that you feel that people are “infinitely more important” than animals. Why is this? Because you, like nearly everyone else here, have trouble showing compassion for anything but your fellow humans. I don’t know if you have trouble indentifying pain in an animal, but it occurs extremely often. As to your remarks about the U.S. industry, I was referring to it because that is where I live and it makes sense to use that term as the “U.S. meat indsutry” is the direct meat supplier to most Americans. Also, the U.S. meat industry has been known to pump it’s food so full of drugs to promote rapid, unnatural growth, that many foreign governments refuse to accept it. In conclusion, Condan, you can say about want about “dominion over animals” but I ask you: a mother has dominion over her child, yes? And the mother, therefore, protects and cares for the child, right? Shouldn’t we treat ALL animals (not just those who are “pets”) with kindness? Or should we exploit some and care for others? In some Asian countries, you know, people eat dog. Here, that would be a crime, a literal crime. But here we do the same they do to dogs to chickens, pigs, cows and turkeys. If all people are created equal, then why not all animals?
Because they’re animals? How’s that for starters? All animals are not the same. Are all primates the same? Are we the same as chimps? Baboons? Are gerbils the same as cats? Turkeys the same as dogs? Have you ever tried to cuddle up to a chicken while you read a book in your easy chair?

Sorry CV, but I see non-domesitcated animals as food and clothing and domesticated animals as good companions. Period. I get worked up over people, not lower life forms. People are much more important because they can contribute to society by doing things with their opposable thumbs and higher intellect like invent medicines that cure disease and write literature that passes through the ages. Name one animal who has ever written a sonnet.

As to why some cultures eat domesticated animals, why not ask them?

PS: Do you get this passionate in front of an abortion mill or just the old factory farm?
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Condan,

Dear Legeorge,

Dear Lisa N,

Dear Catholic90,

Dear Scott LaFrance,
:crying:
Hey, why didn’t you answer my questions? I was post #20 and #23. I’m being left out… :crying:

John
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Catholic90,

I was talking from personal experience, as I know several people who have left the diet because of health problems and other unwanted “side-effects.” Also, do you speak from experience when making your claims about the (alleged) positive “side-effects” of the Atkins diet? Please explain.

“Meet Your Meat”: meetyourmeat.com

“J Lodown”: peta.org

If you questions the content of any of these videos, which you undoubtedly will, go ahead and ask me or anyone else you feel the need to.
Yes, I certainly do speak from personal experience when talking about the “side effects”, as you like to call them.

As far as credible organizations, PETA.ORG is certainly not one I’d consider!! Any other CREDIBLE groups you’d like to quote??

Are you this active in the HUMAN prolife movement, or is it just animals you get so worked up over??

Must go now to fry up some hamburger for dinner. It’s taco night!
 
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maendem:
Dear Lisa,

Having worked for years in Texas shelters, I can tell you people in the U.S. ARE starving. It’s easy to point to corrupt dictatorships (they certainly exist) but improper distribution of food is not confined to other countries, and greed is a factor of maldistribution even more in 1st world countries than 3rd world. ?
Baloney. Please provide some documentation. Our state has the “greatest hunger” and also the greatest obesity. We have plenty of food in this country and people are not starving unless you are talking about someone who is totally under the control of another such as a child or older person. There are soup kitchens, hot meal programs, school breakfasts and lunches, homeless shelters, etc etc etc. If someone actually STARVES to death in this country I think it would make the news. Again, please provide your source.
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maendem:
Speaking of the property rights; the policies of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank have wreaked havoc on the economies of developing countries that are not under dictatorships. People are starving because these policies severely limit the amount of food that can be used internally (high export quotas are demanded) and the import prices of food for these same countries are exhorbitant. Lots of documentation available if you wish…?
Do these people have property rights? I rest my case…
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maendem:
Your last point is quite strange–DDT has been banned in the United States because it has been directly linked to many forms of cancer. Far less toxic, and equally effective repellents have been developed since the 1970s. Why should Africa be subject to bad science and cheap, carcinogenic chemicals?
DDT was banned in the US as a result of hysterical environmentalists who internalized Silent Spring and believed that a huge over treatment with DDT represented the typical usage. As to other repellents (???) I don’t want to repel mosquitos, I want them DEAD. We want to KILL them not chase them to the next county. There is according to people with a lot of alphabet soup behind there name no more effective, less expensive way to rid Africa of mosquitos than DDT.

Lisa N
 
Dear Lisa,

I think we are using "starve’ in two different senses; it can either mean to perish from lack of food (“starve to death”) or to “starve from hunger” - ie. to be extremely malnourished.

I was using it in the latter sense, and you have only to look at the daily news for evidence. Many of the children I took care of at a Houston shelter had concerned, loving parents, (they were not being abused) but the families WERE STARVING; they were eating cat food, garbage, etc. to subsist.

But famine and mass death from malnourishment, which is what I think you’re referring to with “starve”? No, you’re right; this is not occurring in the U.S. (Perhaps this usage is a British nuance on my part.)

Also: I’m confused what you mean by “I rest my case” in regards to property rights. I was thinking specifically of Mexico, where farmers certainly have property rights (they own the land they work.) Yet they are subject to IMF and World Bank regulations.

About DDT: You might have more info than me, but I have always understood it is not safe in any concentration. Getting rid of mosquitoes in the continent of Africa would entail enormous rates of the stuff. How can it be safely used?
 
Unfortunately, I do agree about PETA not being an organization I would like to quote. They are notorious for exploiting humans in the name of saving animals. As someone who does stand outside the abortion clinic twice a week in extreme conditions (like wind chills below 0) at times, I can’t respect an organization that employs such means to get their message accross.
I am not a vegetarian, but I do respect animals. Our dog was hit by a car in the fall, and it cost $1700.00 for all the medical bills. He only had a broken leg and no other injuries. We pulled out all the stops and got seriously behind on our bills to pay for it. We never dreamed of doing otherwise. I don’t think anyone here wants to see animals tortured, but they do see a difference in pets vs. non-domesticated animals and using animals for frivolous vs. necessary reasons. And, yes, in the past there was a need to use fur for warmth, although we now have technology that makes it unnecessary. I don’t see why we need to have such bickering about this. I don’t think I ever read anything in the Bible about Jesus forbidding us to eat meat (unless someone could point me to it, please), so I can’t see it as a sin. Therefore, I am more interested in protecting the lives of those created in the image and likeness of God, and will leave this fight up to those who feel called to it.
 
Umm…what about people who cannot have soy?

My mom had breast cancer and both conventional and natural sources told her to avoid soy for the rest of her life, and beacause that can be genetic, I won’t eat soy either, I try to stay away from red meat and pork, which i think is how things should be. I think porportunatly way too much red meat and pork is eaten then had been in the past, I think that more chicken and other fowl should be consumed as well as fish.
 
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maendem:
Dear Lisa,

I think we are using "starve’ in two different senses; it can either mean to perish from lack of food (“starve to death”) or to “starve from hunger” - ie. to be extremely malnourished.

I was using it in the latter sense, and you have only to look at the daily news for evidence. Many of the children I took care of at a Houston shelter had concerned, loving parents, (they were not being abused) but the families WERE STARVING; they were eating cat food, garbage, etc. to subsist.

But famine and mass death from malnourishment, which is what I think you’re referring to with “starve”? No, you’re right; this is not occurring in the U.S. (Perhaps this usage is a British nuance on my part.)
In this country (and I assume in Europe, Canada, etc) people do not go hungry because food is UNAVAILABLE but rather that they were not aware how to access services. The point I am making is that we do not starve to death in this country, other than in extreme and bizarre cases. People who are hungry in this country are hungry because they have not accessed to myriad of social services that are available. Believe me, I’ve volunteered at homeless shelters, migrant camps, etc. and yes I’ve seen poorly nourished people but in reality food was available. They just had to be reached and shown where the soupkitchens, meal programs, food banks etc were located. Unlike the poor souls in sub Saharan Africa or other countries where there IS no food in some cases.

Also quite honestly many people who access services are very poorly schooled in basic nutrition. If you feed your kids french fries and coke as staples, they will be malnourished even if their tummies are full. We had a TERRIBLE problem in our shelter because people would not eat vegetables or anything that wasn’t overprocessed or fast food.
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maendem:
About DDT: You might have more info than me, but I have always understood it is not safe in any concentration. Getting rid of mosquitoes in the continent of Africa would entail enormous rates of the stuff. How can it be safely used?
DDT causes problems if it’s sprayed all over the inside of your walls and you ingest huge quantities of it. It is actually not such a bad chemical, particularly when used in sparsely populated areas such as in Africa. DDT was banned because it was thought to cause soft shells on certain bird eggs, at least that was one of the reasons. I grew up in a timber town in a remote area of Oregon. When they banned DDT the bugs went crazy, killed the forests that then burnt to the ground, thereby destroying far more habitat than any pesticide ever developed.

I’ll find a link to some reports on DDT. Sure it’s got its problems, but then so do mosquitos. According to many scientists far more people in Africa are dying of diseases carried by mosquitos than AIDS but because the ‘cure’ for those diseases is politically incorrect (pesticides) we cannot allow for that cure. Similarly people have been bamboozled into believing genetically engineered food is “poison” when there is no evidence that it has any determental effects. Again, I have totally lost my respect for most environmental groups as they make their living fomenting hysteria. The facts are very bad for business.
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maendem:
Also: I’m confused what you mean by “I rest my case” in regards to property rights. I was thinking specifically of Mexico, where farmers certainly have property rights (they own the land they work.) Yet they are subject to IMF and World Bank regulations.?
How widespread is property ownership in Mexico? IOW do they have the rate of homeownership that we have? I don’t think so. Else why are so many streaming over the borders to come to the US? I just don’t see how the IMF and World Bank impacts the average Mexican farmer but maybe you have more information. The reality is that country is extremely corrupt and people cannot make a living or subsist as small farmers because they really have no protections for their property.

Lisa N
 
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wabrams:
You might not need meat to survive, but I’ve never met a vegan or vegetarian who looked healthy. They all are supermodel thin and have this wierd gray color to their skin.
I have a couple vegan friends who are still extemely overweight. You’re right, being vegan doesn’t mean you are automatically healthier.
 
As a Catholic & a sportsman (yes, hunter & fisherman) I have grown up and been taught by my mother and father of the abundance God has given us. God had taken away paradise but at times I find it hard to believe. Beautiful mountains and lakes teaming with God’s creatures, plants & animals alike. And He gave them all to us for us to respect but to use as needed. I don’t recall anywhere that it was said to fish & hunt only until we find an alternate source so that we can take the life of a plant instead. Every living organism is living because God gave it Life. I believe they are equal. Harvesting crops and even animals is quite a spirtual feeling both in their own right. Respect them and be thankful. Eventually science will make rocks edible and then the hunters & vegans will have to unite! Imagine that!

J Lo, look what you have started!
 
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BOANERGES21:
As a Catholic & a sportsman (yes, hunter & fisherman) I have grown up and been taught by my mother and father of the abundance God has given us. God had taken away paradise but at times I find it hard to believe. Beautiful mountains and lakes teaming with God’s creatures, plants & animals alike. And He gave them all to us for us to respect but to use as needed. I don’t recall anywhere that it was said to fish & hunt only until we find an alternate source so that we can take the life of a plant instead. Every living organism is living because God gave it Life. I believe they are equal. Harvesting crops and even animals is quite a spirtual feeling both in their own right. Respect them and be thankful. Eventually science will make rocks edible and then the hunters & vegans will have to unite! Imagine that!

J Lo, look what you have started!
As a Catechist, I get all the boys no one else can handle. We find God on deer stands, and in Jon Boats.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
I don’t remember any farmers being Disciples, however several were fishermen. I have zero intention of giving up my delicious meats and sea food. I also like my warm leather jackets and comfortable leather shoes and boots. If someone wants to be vegitarian they have a right to do so, just as I have a right to tell them to shut up when they start preaching to me about how bad I am for using animals. As Scott LaFrance say’s, “PETA, People eating tasty animals”.
 
Dear Mjdonnelly,

You’re correct in that being a vegan doesn’t make you automatically heathier, there are certainly both meat and non-meat eaters who are overweight/unhealthy. However, if you look at percentages, I think you’ll find that more meat eaters than non-meat eaters are unhealthy.
 
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Lance:
Vern,
You are right, I have never felt closer to God than when I am out in the woods alone, whether it be hunting or just out for a hike.
There are times when I think that God must be in His woods, sitting on a log, with His bow on His knees, waiting for that buck to come along.

Surely, no one can be a hunter and not know God.
 
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Catholicvegan:
Dear Scott LaFrance,

Your jokes don’t amuse me much, and they are simply further proof of your obvious ignorance to animal cruelty in this world. Or, perhaps you are knowlegeable of it and simply don’t care or are denying that it occurs. Wouldn’t that be a shame! In any event, Mr. LaFrance, perhaps you wouldn’t laugh if you actually understood what animals must go through to become a coat or a meal.
:yawn:
Thanks for the lecture, mom.
 
As that great Canadian bard Red Green once said (I’m quoting from memory), *"'Tis autumn, and the animals are growing furry coats for the cold winter. But we cannot grow warm coats, so we kill them and take theirs." 😃 *
 
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Hospitaller:
As that great Canadian bard Red Green once said (I’m quoting from memory), *"'Tis autumn, and the animals are growing furry coats for the cold winter. But we cannot grow warm coats, so we kill them and take theirs." 😃 *
I loved the Red Green show. We don’t get it any longer in the Chicago area. Wish they would bring it back.
 
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