James White Has Completely Lost It [Akin]

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Humor is one thing…Mad Cow disease is quite another matter. :rolleyes:
Precisely.
If all White were guilty of, were of having a stupid sense of humor, he would have taken the pictures down, & replaced them with an apology for behaving in such a childish fashion.

The fact that he continues to, quite hysterically, defend his visual trash…That says to me, that his spiritual, emotional, and mental state are all dangerously out of whack.

It’s not that he “just doesn’t get it”; it’s that he has gotten the reaction he was aiming for, and now he is angry because nobody wants to play with the neighborhood bully anymore.
Mr White wants it both ways. Since he is not being allowed (by simple logic) to have his cake, and eat it too, he is throwing a tantrum. Grown men who throw tantrums have problems; big problems. Throwing one in public is only proof positive of the fact that those problems are very real, very deep-seated, and in need of serious pastoral care.
People who admire him are doing the man no favors by denying him such care. Anyone who remains as such, in spite of this visually obscene outburst, should save their time debating, and get to the business of finding the pathetic creature the help that he is so desperately (though unknowingly ) crying out after.
 
I have heard the explanation that was offered by JRW (it’s sitting right there on his home page for all to see aomin.org/). And I have seen the original post that is in question (JRW has always maintained a link to the origonal post). And it concurs with what JRW is saying.
I read his explanation, and it does not detract to how low it is, no matter what his intentions are. He could simply make a civil discourse out of it, not making it inflammatory. In that regard, he then simply wants to get the response he seeks, and of course naturally he will get it. I don’t see why he should now rant about it, when it is but natural for anyone to be dismayed at what he did. Did he expect otherwise?
Naw, there is no name calling on JRW’s part. But accusing someone of “doctoring” when they did not is certainly not charitable.
Well, what do we call what those pictures are then? The first picture is clearly doctored, unless proven otherwise.
But my point is this, that once one has made that determination to end the discussion, then that should really be the end of it. No more “stoking of the coals” if you will.
If one is really ready to walk away, then one should walk. Don’t turn and resume fire.
I don’t think anyone here is stoking the fires any further; however, it is natural to be dismayed over them as it is going very low.
So much for charity I suppose.
That has nothing to do with charity; it’s simply stating it as it is. I don’t see where he wants to have civil dialogue with what he did. As Church Militant said, would this sit well if it was done to some anti-Catholics? Even with the same explanation given by White, I’m not sure it will, and then each and every anti-Catholic will make it a point to rant about it in every blog and message board imaginable. The point is that, whoever does this thing, looking at it from any angle, it is low. And discussion with such a person can never be achieved since his mindset is already seen with what he did.
 
Two points
  1. James White has a sense of humor and can be very funny with satire. This type of humor is clearly better understood face to face. This type of humor, online, without facial expressions, voice inflection and the like is lost. In James White’s case and especially from the CA perspective, his intentions will be taken in the worst possible light. From the outrage I see here the pictures are funny and accurate in a sense. “lighten up”, it’s hyperbole 🙂
  2. Those who want to be outraged will take ANY opportunity to be. Many here are all to eager to play the holier than thou, “charity” card and walk away indignant than to debate the issues. Seems to be much easier to demonize JW, than to engage his arguments. Calling him satan and sticking your fingers in your ears is not a very convincing argument.
 
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kaycee:
  1. James White has a sense of humor and can be very funny with satire. This type of humor is clearly better understood face to face. This type of humor, online, without facial expressions, voice inflection and the like is lost. In James White’s case and especially from the CA perspective, his intentions will be taken in the worst possible light. From the outrage I see here the pictures are funny and accurate in a sense. “lighten up”, it’s hyperbole 🙂
On Jimmy Akin’s blog I have seen numerous claims to artistic licence. So, if that is your claim, then please be kind enough to defend it.
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kaycee:
  1. Those who want to be outraged will take ANY opportunity to be.
Implicit faulty generalism. I for instance am not outraged. And there are many others like me who, while not feeling outraged, still question the wisdom of Mr White’s decision to taunt and harrass Francis Beckwith.
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kaycee:
Many here are all to eager to play the holier than thou, “charity” card and walk away indignant than to debate the issues.
It is the most charitable option by far imho for us to walk away from the unfortunate Dr White and to not debate him at this time. Now is not the time for debate. He obviously needs his space. Let the poor man have his space.
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kaycee:
Seems to be much easier to demonize JW, than to engage his arguments.
Who has demonized him? As for his arguments, please try to understand in all compassion that what he is setting forth are not arguments. They are incoherent expressions of something very private, very personal that have nothing to do with us.

That is why I say it is a mistake to debate him on the ‘issues’ at present. For what would the real ‘issues’ be?

We can’t know unless he stops making it about us, starts doing some serious self-examination, and articulates what has upset him so much about Francis Beckwith making a private decision about his faith and a public decision to step down as President of the ETS.

Dr Beckwith’s private decision is none of anyone’s business but his own. His public decision was responsible in that he felt he could not serve two masters. Dr White himself counselled that Dr Beckwith should step down.

If indeed, Dr Beckwith’s swim has left a firestorm of controversy in the Reform community, then let’s keep in mind that he did not choose to flame the blogosphere.

That decision was made by others trying to capitalize on his move and jockey for position in the power vacuum left in the wake of his resignation from the ETS. So why waste another breath berating him? Why not just roll up all yall’s sleeves and get down to the real work of rebuilding?

It is hard to say this without coming off as mean on the internet. I don’t mean to be mean. I mean to be clear that Dr White’s behavioural decisions are recognizable to any of us who have worked with folks who have difficulty containing disproportionate levels of anger.

What profit is there for Dr White, for you, or for any of us to ignore the elephant in the room? Frankly if a Catholic were to do the same thing as Mr White has done, I would take the person aside and try to direct the person to some guidance. I would therefore be acting as a friend. A friend does not enable destructive behaviour!

Sincerely I wonder how many friends Mr White has since he has not yet taken down images from the internet – images which have done little else but embarrass him and jeopardize his standing among the Reform community.
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kaycee:
Calling him satan and sticking your fingers in your ears is not a very convincing argument.
Then why do it, kaycee? Even if it is a strawman, why go there? Why fan the flames?
 
Seems to be much easier to demonize JW, than to engage his arguments.
Ah, but you see, once again:** the emperor has no clothes**.
Calling him satan and sticking your fingers in your ears is not a very convincing argument.
I am not calling him satan; I’m calling him a man in the throes of a nervous breakdown, and I am pleading for persons like yourself, those who may be able to make him listen, to plead with him, to seek immediate professional help.
This is not name calling; this is simply the facts: He is not in his right mind. If he were, he would be profoundly humiliated at his own foolishness, and be seeking to remedy it. The fact that he is not doing this, leads inexorably to the conclusion that the poor man is so far gone as to believe in his own delusions.
He is deeply & profoundly ill, both spiritually, and emotionally. Since you seem to have some small affection for the man, I beg of you, tell him so. Stop propping him up and allowing him to continue to spiral out of control.
Give the man a chance to recover from whatever form of dementia has created this horrific performance. There may still be a chance for him. But not if his “friends” continue to cater to his bizarre imaginations.
For the love of God, can no one in the Reform camp find it in your hearts to intercede? To help him seek & find the help he so desperately needs???
 
Luther is a Christian worth his salt, and quite humorous as well. 🙂

QUOTE]

I suppose you found Luther’s “On the Jews and Their Lies” to be equally Christian and funny, then?

Perhaps your conscience is not fully reliable on the subject, my friend.
 
Ah, but you see, once again:** the emperor has no clothes**.

I am not calling him satan; I’m calling him a man in the throes of a nervous breakdown, and I am pleading for persons like yourself, those who may be able to make him listen, to plead with him, to seek immediate professional help.
This is not name calling; this is simply the facts: He is not in his right mind. If he were, he would be profoundly humiliated at his own foolishness, and be seeking to remedy it. The fact that he is not doing this, leads inexorably to the conclusion that the poor man is so far gone as to believe in his own delusions.
He is deeply & profoundly ill, both spiritually, and emotionally. Since you seem to have some small affection for the man, I beg of you, tell him so. Stop propping him up and allowing him to continue to spiral out of control.
Give the man a chance to recover from whatever form of dementia has created this horrific performance. There may still be a chance for him. But not if his “friends” continue to cater to his bizarre imaginations.
For the love of God, can no one in the Reform camp find it in your hearts to intercede? To help him seek & find the help he so desperately needs???
We see the respect for the truth among White’s admirers by their constant distortions of what is being said in criticism of him.

Can anyone objectively read or listen to White and find Christian charity in evidence?

He sounds like Christ not at all.

His claims of authority are completely invalid for this reason, among many others.
 
Dr. White is a brilliant debater and has managed with trounce even far more credentialed people like Fr. Pacwa (independent rating of debates I posted here once). However, being a brillinat debater does NOT make him right. It just means he knows how to argue well (like a chess game). That is after all what lawyers do and why being “right” does not win cases.

The other thing is that I have noticed he gets rather testy about converts and ridicules them whether they are Scott Hahn, his sister or Beckwith. This really lacks charity. I think he noted one of them lacked Christian maturity because they had tried a couple of different faiths in discerning theirs. This general attitude of White’s is unfortunate since it has nothing to do with a case for faith and his attacks on converts and reverts makes him appear as if he has a bruised ego over the whole thing since he makes ad hominem attacks on these folks and assumes bad motivation, ignorance, etc on their part.

God Bless Dr. Beckwith for taking a stand he believed in knowing that their would be a cost involved.

Rev North
 
managing to deeply offend and insult two major religions…
This is not a way to defend the Gospel. A man who knows how to control his temper and ego won’t do what he did.

It won’t help Christianity in general.
 
Two points
  1. James White has a sense of humor and can be very funny with satire. This type of humor is clearly better understood face to face. This type of humor, online, without facial expressions, voice inflection and the like is lost. In James White’s case and especially from the CA perspective, his intentions will be taken in the worst possible light. From the outrage I see here the pictures are funny and accurate in a sense. “lighten up”, it’s hyperbole 🙂
WOW I think some of the representatives of Reformed Theology in this board have reached new lows. Please answer these questions so I know what to expect when I engage someone from your camp. So since a joke, when expressed in written form, should not offend me. Will this include ethnic jokes? (after all my last name is Santiago) How about the use of the “N” word (Since some of my ancestors where Africans)?, please loving and charitable Calvinists elucidate for me on this topics so I do not get surprised and misunderstand attempts of levity when you are trying to make a point.

Sad…

A Catholic Deacon
 
Mr. Akin, stand firm knoble christian, they called our Lord Jesus worst names, finish the race for our reward is from above., our early Catholic Fathers took on martyrdom with joy. Besides our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the evil powers and principalities that have affected our seperated brother Mr. James White. I will pray and fast for the Lord Jesus to be Glorified in all this scandal. Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
 
I think that James White has a rapier sharp whit, and that his points are valid and binding.

My suggestion is that Catholic apologist stop whining and start addressing the issues that he presents.

(My 2c)
Haaaaaaa but that IS the issue at hand… I noticed that you have two quotes from the Paul’s letter to the Romans in your sid… Perhaps you should look at Mr White’s posting of these pictures after reflecting on Romans 12: 9-17

"9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love.** Honor one another above yourselves**. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

Are these word just reserved for those of the Reformed Theology tradition? Are the rest of us fair game?

A Catholic Deacon
 
Haaaaaaa but that IS the issue at hand… I noticed that you have two quotes from the Paul’s letter to the Romans in your sid… Perhaps you should look at Mr White’s posting of these pictures after reflecting on Romans 12: 9-17

"9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love.** Honor one another above yourselves**. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

Are these word just reserved for those of the Reformed Theology tradition? Are the rest of us fair game?

A Catholic DeaconA very good point that always cuts both ways. 👍
 
Two points
  1. James White has a sense of humor and can be very funny with satire. This type of humor is clearly better understood face to face. This type of humor, online, without facial expressions, voice inflection and the like is lost. In James White’s case and especially from the CA perspective, his intentions will be taken in the worst possible light. From the outrage I see here the pictures are funny and accurate in a sense. “lighten up”, it’s hyperbole 🙂
  2. Those who want to be outraged will take ANY opportunity to be. Many here are all to eager to play the holier than thou, “charity” card and walk away indignant than to debate the issues. Seems to be much easier to demonize JW, than to engage his arguments. Calling him satan and sticking your fingers in your ears is not a very convincing argument.
Since I have already posted in this thread, I would like to point out, in order to avoid confusion, that I and kaycee are two different people. Please do not confuse us in your posts.
 
I for instance am not outraged. And there are many others like me who, while not feeling outraged, still question the wisdom of Mr White’s decision to taunt and harrass Francis Beckwith.
It appears that Beckwith is being used as the poster child by Catholic apologists on radio and TV to bring “separated brethren” back to mother church.

Did you expect their not to be a reaction when someone who professed to know the Gospel, walks away from the Gospel of Grace and is being paraded about to draw others away? :confused:
 
It appears that Beckwith is being used as the poster child by Catholic apologists on radio and TV to bring “separated brethren” back to mother church.

Did you expect their not to be a reaction when someone who professed to know the Gospel, walks away from the Gospel of Grace and is being paraded about to draw others away? :confused:
I suggest you go read the documents of Trent on the Catholic view of grace and salvation and report back here to see what you find.
 
It appears that Beckwith is being used as the poster child by Catholic apologists on radio and TV to bring “separated brethren” back to mother church.

Did you expect their not to be a reaction when someone who professed to know the Gospel, walks away from the Gospel of Grace and is being paraded about to draw others away? :confused:
I recall the story of the prodigal child coming home. That is what I see from my Catholic brothers and sisters…. I also see a lot of grinding of teeth and chest beating from a few of my non-Catholic brothers and sisters…… That is what I see……
 
It appears that Beckwith is being used as the poster child by Catholic apologists on radio and TV to bring “separated brethren” back to mother church.

Did you expect their not to be a reaction when someone who professed to know the Gospel, walks away from the Gospel of Grace
and is being paraded about to draw others away? :confused:Congratulations! You just enunciated the very reasons that Catholic Answers and so many Catholic apologetics ministries exist!

This is precisely the very same thing that Catholics can say of virtually every single one of the modern post reformation step children, except that when Catholics make that claim we have the Word of God and 2,000 years of Christian history as conclusive evidence to back it up, while n-Cs actually do fall into your own terminology of those “who professed to know the Gospel, walked away from the Gospel of Grace” and as you then say, parade “about to draw others away”.

I think that Dr. Beckwith is quite a big enough person to speak for himself, and since so many n-Cs/a-Cs and especially evangelicals have made a hue and cry of “But why!?”, the fact that he is taking opportunities to offer his reasons seems the only rational and honest thing to do.

IMV, you have him damned if he remains silent and damned as well if he speaks out. 🤷
 
Since I have already posted in this thread, I would like to point out, in order to avoid confusion, that I and kaycee are two different people. Please do not confuse us in your posts.
I never confuse the two of you, even if you post sequentially in a thread. 😃
 
It appears that Beckwith is being used as the poster child by Catholic apologists on radio and TV to bring “separated brethren” back to mother church.

Did you expect their not to be a reaction when someone who professed to know the Gospel, walks away from the Gospel of Grace and is being paraded about to draw others away? :confused:
Dr White’s response is disproportionate.

It is the disproportionality to which many of us are pointing.

Not the content. Not the rationalization.
The disproportionality.

All the fingerpointing in the world is not going to change the fact that that degree of disproportionate rage indicates that the man (a) needs his space and (b) needs a friend to suggest that he take time out and look at the root of his problem rather than flounder around in rationalizations.

I believe that Dr White is in danger of being turned into a commodity; a curiosity and a lever for those whose political ambition has gotten the better of their Christian testimony.

As for Dr Beckwith being ‘paraded about to draw others away’: this is either a case of hero worship or what he has been saying all along is right.

If it is a case of hero worship and the fans follow him away, then all you have to do is find a groovier ETS President to draw them back.

If what he has been saying all alone is right, then berating him makes sense how?

It’s simple. 🤷
 
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