Japan nixed Obama atomic bomb apology

[Darryl1958]

To be fair, nobody really had any idea what the atomic bomb would do when dropped on an actual combat target; nobody had ever done it before. Even after World War II ended, a good many of the senior military men of the time—such as Douglas MacArthur, who suggested dropping “anywhere from 25 to 30” Hiroshima-size bombs along the Yalu River to prevent the Chinese from entering North Korea—simply viewed an atomic bomb as a really, really big conventional bomb.

If Truman and the Joint Chiefs could have had any inkling about what nucelar weaponry would grow inot, might it have changed their minds? Perhaps; but that’s something that none of us can ever know. But it is nonsensical and disingenuous to judge that decision by the standards of 2011; they did not have 54-megaton ICBMs with multiple MIRV’ed warheads in 1945.

On the other hand, if the Japanese had developed the bomb instead of us, and had the ability to drop it on New York or Washington DC, would they have had any qualms about using it?

Anyone who says “No” is fooling themselves.

Likewise as the North Koreans and Iranians develop nuclear weapons and America contemplates disarming unilaterally, there is no doubt in my mind that these countries would have no qualms in using then to get their way either, even now. A well oiled and well maintained big stick is a very important part of the peace process in the world as it is even now too.

For its part, America has developed ever more precise weaponry over the years to take out specific targets rather than to continue with the methods that all sides used in WWII. Total warfare and degrading the enemies will to fight throw the London blitz, the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo, and eventually Nagasaki was just how WWII was fought. It is just not our place to apologize for the actions of heroic men who bought for us our freedom with their own blood, sweat and toil.
We thank them for the service and appreciate that they prevailed. God only knows how much more infinitely hellish and demonic life on earth would now be if they had not.

Drones and the development of even facial recognition software is something that Catholic teaching has guided us toward.

 

[Ridgerunner]

From what I have heard, the Japanese army made a cult out of cruelty. Even as they were setting up rape camps in China, and abusing the POWS to death, they would often beat their own soldiers too mercilessly for no particular reason other than too watch them suffer…
Japanese are basically decent people. We can all recall the total absence of looting in the wake of that devastating tsunami. To remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki is to remember why such drastic measures were taken in the first place.

I don’t purport to be an expert on Japan. But there has been an ebb and flow of savagery in Japan for centuries, now very much suppressed. For a long, long time it was sort of symbolically represented by adherence to the two major religions; Shinto and Buddhism. If one adhered to Shinto, one was into Bushido. If one adhered to Buddhism, one was more pacific. The upper classes were generally (but not always) more Shinto than Buddhist. Lower classes were generally a very peaceful lot.

Under the Emperor Meiji, Shinto came into an ascendency that was, itself, almost a caricature of what it had been before, as was the case with Bushido. After political wrangles, the uber-militarists took over long before we were aware they had. There was also a conflict between the army and the navy, but both had to do with aggressive designs. The army, sometimes called the “Strike North” faction wanted land conquest on the food-rich mainland and saw Russia as the ultimate enemy. The navy, sometimes characterized as the “Strike South” faction, wanted overseas conquests principally in raw materials rich southeast Asian places, and saw Britain and the U.S. as the ultimate enemies of that ambition. Hirohito, probably very early on in his own heart, took the side of the navy faction.

Either ambition promised a sea of bloodshed. The code of the Samurai (whose special place in society had been abolished by Meiji) was artificially resurrected and imposed on commoners who had never been part of that structure. All sense of honor and justice was purged out of it, leaving only an enhanced version of the cruelty and murderousness that was the worst aspect of Bushido.

But even so, many Japanese, including many soldiers, really did not have that in their heritage or in their thoughts. But their leaders, as mentioned above, could be just as cruel to them as to Chinese or western prisoners, and often were. It was, for many or even most, an artificial imposition. My acquaintence, who had been in the Kwantung Army, was extremely bitter about that, because it “went against the grain” of the traditional values they had learned in their families, in the same sort of way that being drafted into and proselytized in the Hitler Youth went against the grain of young Joseph Ratzinger.

 

[Tenofovir]

The upper classes were generally (but not always) more Shinto than Buddhist.

Hasn’t Catholicism replaced Shinto a little? Most Japanese PMs and higher politicians have been Roman Catholic.

 

[SamH]

Under the Emperor Meiji, Shinto came into an ascendency that was, itself, almost a caricature of what it had been before, as was the case with Bushido. After political wrangles, the uber-militarists took over long before we were aware they had. There was also a conflict between the army and the navy, but both had to do with aggressive designs. The army, sometimes called the “Strike North” faction wanted land conquest on the food-rich mainland and saw Russia as the ultimate enemy. The navy, sometimes characterized as the “Strike South” faction, wanted overseas conquests principally in raw materials rich southeast Asian places, and saw Britain and the U.S. as the ultimate enemies of that ambition. Hirohito, probably very early on in his own heart, took the side of the navy faction.
.

The “strike north” faction had their plans dashed with the defeat of the Japanese 6th army at the Battles of Khalkhyn Gol. Japan wanting nothing to do with a land war against the Soviet Union after they had their head handed to them by the Red Army - even with Germany tying up the main forces in Europe.

 

[GKC]

The “strike north” faction had their plans dashed with the defeat of the Japanese 6th army at the Battles of Khalkhyn Gol. Japan wanting nothing to do with a land war against the Soviet Union after they had their head handed to them by the Red Army - even with Germany tying up the main forces in Europe.

Khalkyn Gol/Nomonhan was in 1939. When the Soviets and German’s were becoming best buds. The Non-Aggression Pact was signed about the time the battle was ending.

Still, it certainly did make the Japanese look toward the more congenial lands of China. Easier pickings. No Zhukov.

GKC

 

[Ridgerunner]

The “strike north” faction had their plans dashed with the defeat of the Japanese 6th army at the Battles of Khalkhyn Gol. Japan wanting nothing to do with a land war against the Soviet Union after they had their head handed to them by the Red Army - even with Germany tying up the main forces in Europe.

There are those who think they were deliberately under-supported because the Emperor and the imperial cabal had always wanted the “strike south”, and actually wanted the “strike north” faction to get humiliated. It might be instructive to realize the cream of the Japanese air arm was assigned to the navy well before that battle.

 

[SamH]

There are those who think they were deliberately under-supported because the Emperor and the imperial cabal had always wanted the “strike south”, and actually wanted the “strike north” faction to get humiliated. It might be instructive to realize the cream of the Japanese air arm was assigned to the navy well before that battle.

Actually the Japanese Airforce did account for its self very well against the Soviet Airforce during those battles, but neither side had a large enough force on hand to change the outcome of the land battles.

Some the the Japanese Army’s better units were with the 6th army along with some of Japan’s best/newest armour. The Soviet tanks and armoured cars showed how poorly the Japanese vehicles faired in modern warfare and the Soviet’s logistical forces (primitive by any western standard) totally out classed the Japanese. The battles did take place in 1939 but in the fall of 1941 Germany was marching through western Russia and were at the gates of Moscow when Pearl Harbor was attacked. The Japanese still had no interest in trying to match their forces against already the hard pressed Soviets.

Instead of attacking the US and bring it into the war against the Axis Powers many German generals wished Japan had instead attacked the Soviet Union in the summer-fall of 1941. They reasoned that a second front for the Soviet Union might have been the knock out blow that Germany very nearly landed in 1941. Hilter didn’t understand that line of thought otherwise he would never have declared war on the US with so little thought in the waning days of 1941.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Actually the Japanese Airforce did account for its self very well against the Soviet Airforce during those battles, but neither side had a large enough force on hand to change the outcome of the land battles.

Some the the Japanese Army’s better units were with the 6th army along with some of Japan’s best/newest armour. The Soviet tanks and armoured cars showed how poorly the Japanese vehicles faired in modern warfare and the Soviet’s logistical forces (primitive by any western standard) totally out classed the Japanese. The battles did take place in 1939 but in the fall of 1941 Germany was marching through western Russia and were at the gates of Moscow when Pearl Harbor was attacked. The Japanese still had no interest in trying to match their forces against already the hard pressed Soviets.

Instead of attacking the US and bring it into the war against the Axis Powers many German generals wished Japan had instead attacked the Soviet Union in the summer-fall of 1941. They reasoned that a second front for the Soviet Union might have been the knock out blow that Germany very nearly landed in 1941. Hilter didn’t understand that line of thought otherwise he would never have declared war on the US with so little thought in the waning days of 1941.

I don’t disagree with any of this. I was pointing out that the resources available for the brief war were well below Japan’s capability at the time. It is further instructive that the best pilots were, for some time, sent to the naval air school at Misty Lagoon, not to the army.

While the strike north faction had supporters, particularly in the army, the Emperor and his people always intended the strike south as the primary goal of the war, and had for a long time. They knew they would be opposed in SE Asia by Britain and the U.S. (French and Dutch forces were not considered serious opposition) and that sea power, which was largely carrier-based in their view, would be essential to the struggle. The whole point of what I was saying is that Japan’s innermost circle had decided on war with the U.S. long before Pearl Harbor.

 

[SamH]

The whole point of what I was saying is that Japan’s innermost circle had decided on war with the U.S. long before Pearl Harbor.

Agreed.

Japan’s idea that war would somehow fix its problems is akin to thinking your house is too small but you don’t have the means or ability to add onto it so you burn it to the ground to build a new one - that you don’t have the means or ability to build the new one either.

 

[Mar044]

its sad that i read this entire thread, and basically, those that support the bomb think that japan are subhuman, they commuted horrible crimes, shall we forget Vietnam and MY LAI MASSACRE, Americans are hypocrites…they justify everything…you know what those that support the bomb would support it if they had one dropped on them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

of course American can do no wrong, American history is a joke, at least most of the world didnt have a civil war over black slavory, japan is evil so every nation is evil and you know what, i bet you usa would have dropped the nuke on Russia but Russia had the option of doing it…Americans are full of hypocrisy, even down to the iraq war, talking about the geneva convention, i saw on CNN where soliders shot a wounded iraq solider (NOT A INSURGENT) he was wounded on the ground, unarmed, the geneva convention doesnt allow you do do that…oh but if its American, outrage, jenevea convention…double standard ****

 

[Mar044]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

read it then you tell me about japan, America is just as guilty, only difference is they get away with it. but American history and culture says everyone they go to war with isnt human so hey your families are inhuman if someone goes to war with you, you teach the world that you should be treated as subhuman

 

[SamH]

its sad that i read this entire thread, and basically, those that support the bomb think that japan are subhuman, they commuted horrible crimes, shall we forget Vietnam and MY LAI MASSACRE, Americans are hypocrites…they justify everything…you know what those that support the bomb would support it if they had one dropped on them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

of course American can do no wrong, American history is a joke, at least most of the world didnt have a civil war over black slavory, japan is evil so every nation is evil and you know what, i bet you usa would have dropped the nuke on Russia but Russia had the option of doing it…Americans are full of hypocrisy, even down to the iraq war, talking about the geneva convention, i saw on CNN where soliders shot a wounded iraq solider (NOT A INSURGENT) he was wounded on the ground, unarmed, the geneva convention doesnt allow you do do that…oh but if its American, outrage, jenevea convention…double standard ****

You really should read better history books.

 

[Mar044]

i went to university of Toronto and took history actually. and graduated with honours thank you.

American history is a joke, the government approves what is lectured or in history books, an baring my dyslexia that i have to read things a few times, im aware of the politics of war thank you

so take your smug attitude and shove it up the.

how about i i spend a day i will write you a paper on the lists of war crimes American military as a whole has caused, say world war 2 and on, and then i suggest you look outside America for your history and compare what you know and what the government tells you. our you can watch fox news and believe America is AOK

 

[Ridgerunner]

its sad that i read this entire thread, and basically, those that support the bomb think that japan are subhuman, they commuted horrible crimes, shall we forget Vietnam and MY LAI MASSACRE, Americans are hypocrites…they justify everything…you know what those that support the bomb would support it if they had one dropped on them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

of course American can do no wrong, American history is a joke, at least most of the world didnt have a civil war over black slavory, japan is evil so every nation is evil and you know what, i bet you usa would have dropped the nuke on Russia but Russia had the option of doing it…Americans are full of hypocrisy, even down to the iraq war, talking about the geneva convention, i saw on CNN where soliders shot a wounded iraq solider (NOT A INSURGENT) he was wounded on the ground, unarmed, the geneva convention doesnt allow you do do that…oh but if its American, outrage, jenevea convention…double standard ****

Remember that the perpetrators of My Lai were prosecuted. Keep that in mind when you claim that Americans treat enemies as subhumans. You don’t prosecute your own if you think that.

I don’t think a single person on here said Japan is evil. What many (including myself) said was that prior to and during WWII, it was run by an evil system; one that vicimized Japanese as well as others.

Get the history right, at least. There was a period when ONLY the U.S. had the atomic bomb, and we didn’t bomb Russia. Would it have been the same if the situation was reversed? Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people to pursue his ambitions. Would it have bothered him to kill millions of Americans? Of course not.

 

[Mar044]

hnn.us/articles/9245.html

i was being broad though, and fyi, some wanted to use nukes in Korea. but lucky it was prevented by people in the American military.

and i should learn history, this happened, and no they were released a after the public outrage for locking up americans, they got a presidential parden.

 

[Wolseley]

i went to university of Toronto and took history actually. and graduated with honours thank you.

American history is a joke, the government approves what is lectured or in history books, an baring my dyslexia that i have to read things a few times, im aware of the politics of war thank you

so take your smug attitude and shove it up the.

how about i i spend a day i will write you a paper on the lists of war crimes American military as a whole has caused, say world war 2 and on, and then i suggest you look outside America for your history and compare what you know and what the government tells you. our you can watch fox news and believe America is AOK

You really have a problem with Americans, don’t you? Despite the fact that it was the Germans and the Rusians who devastated Poland, you save your warmest wrath for America.

You do definitely have some problems.

 

[Mar044]

huh!

i dont like the American government and its polices at a political standpoint…and i have some issues with what happened to Poland after america gave up Poland to Russia even though we fought with the Americans to free Poland.

but i love the American people in general as the individual…in the whole i dont have a problem with american or america as a country, they should live and prosper.

 

[Ridgerunner]

huh!

i have some issues with what happened to Poland after america gave up Poland to Russia even though we fought with the Americans to free Poland.

There are many in America who would agree with this. You have to remember, of course, that the Russians were already in Poland and beyond when the Americans reached the heart of Germany. Stalin would not have given Poland up. We would have had to go to war with Russia right then and there.

Perhaps we should have. General Patton certainly thought so. But we didn’t. Roosevelt thought he could handle Stalin, but couldn’t.

You might consider thinking better of Reagan. But for him, Poland might not be free today. There is no question that he conferred with Pope John Paul and Lech Walesa and supported Solidarity in a lot of ways. He also convinced the Russians that they couldn’t possibly outmatch American arms. He also arranged with the Saudis to push down the price of oil so the Soviet government would go broke. The U.S. even paid the transportation costs of getting the Russians out of Poland when Russia claimed it could’t afford it, and maybe couldn’t.

His role was probably less important than the Pope’s and Walesa’s, but it was necessary, and it worked.

 

[GKC]

hnn.us/articles/9245.html

i was being broad though, and fyi, some wanted to use nukes in Korea. but lucky it was prevented by people in the American military.

and i should learn history, this happened, and no they were released a after the public outrage for locking up americans, they got a presidential parden.

MacArthur wanted to. After him Ridgeway wanted to. And the JCS had agreed, in principle.

Truman stopped it.

Who was pardoned?

GKC

 

[Darryl1958]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

read it then you tell me about japan, America is just as guilty, only difference is they get away with it. but American history and culture says everyone they go to war with isnt human so hey your families are inhuman if someone goes to war with you, you teach the world that you should be treated as subhuman

Your post is a very good indication that the Western education system is run mainly by Marxists with a Marxist agenda.

Brainwashed by Marxist propaganda for 4 to 8 years, is it any wonder that there are no jobs for many graduates these days?