Japan nixed Obama atomic bomb apology

[Darryl1958]

Remember that I deal in what history teaches. You can dig up allegations, and credible ones, against Americans on rape charges. The first example that comes to mind is in Feiffer’s TENNOZAN:THE BATTLE FOR OKINAWA AND THE ATOMIC BOMB, the best single book on Okinawa that I know of. See pp. 497-498 esp. Indeed, chap. 25 (a short chapter) is titled “American Atrocities”. They were not often reported.

People are people. Some more so than others.

GKC

I would think that rape is still a policy of many armies, and regarded as the spoils of war by many others.
I am not sure jsut when, but there came a time when what was normal for any war began to be described as an atrocity.
The diefference between an America and a Japan would be that for the former raping women would have been considered a crime even if not reported as often as it might have been, and for the other rape would have been almost mandatory.

For the Soviet armies, I am not sure. It is hard to believe a brutalized people would not themselves be brutal. However for the Serbs not too long ago, rape camps were overt policy with the aim of ethnic cleansing.

I guess all this is to say is that what is lacking in a one-sided criticism of what America has done is perspective.

 

[GKC]

I would think that rape is still a policy of many armies, and regarded as the spoils of war by many others.
I am not sure jsut when, but there came a time when what was normal for any war began to be described as an atrocity.
The diefference between an America and a Japan would be that for the former raping women would have been considered a crime even if not reported as often as it might have been, and for the other rape would have been almost mandatory.

For the Soviet armies, I am not sure. It is hard to believe a brutalized people would not themselves be brutal. However for the Serbs not too long ago, rape camps were overt policy with the aim of ethnic cleansing.

I guess all this is to say is that what is lacking in a one-sided criticism of what America has done is perspective.

I totally agree. But it isn’t accurate not to acknowledge what seems to be found in the history. Cherry picking to support a preconceived notion doesn’t work. One works to find and confirm facts (takes a lot of books and time), then builds an informed opinion.

GKC

 

[Darryl1958]

I totally agree. But it isn’t accurate not to acknowledge what seems to be found in the history. Cherry picking to support a preconceived notion doesn’t work. One works to find and confirm facts (takes a lot of books and time), then builds an informed opinion.

GKC

When it comes to questions like were German prisoners of war treated well, or whether German women were brutalized, or even if America was the one that started the war with Japan, what I hope historians would look at is all the evidence, and not just that, but rather to look at all the evidence available in the context of the times, the norms, and in relationship to what the enemy is doing.

To the extent that a reader of history is identifying with one side or the other, then self-criticism is a welcome tool as well, necessary for improvement in the planing and execution of the next conflict.
But, to the extent that the reader of history is no longer identifying with the side that he is criticizing, then this is no longer a self-criticism really but usually is just a form of propaganda.

Demands for a one-side apology from Obama—undoubtedly not from the president as was misreported, but more likely on behalf of a left leaning anti-nuclear movement—comes off as precisely this kind of propaganda, as do many of the comments that followed.

Not choosing the lesser evil, but choosing the lessening of evil; that, as far as I know is how Catholics are being asked to regard these kind of matters.

Bottom line, defeating Imperial Japan was a lessening of evil in the world. Doing so in a timely manner was horrific. By no means is it something we need to celebrate, but an apology would not lead to a lessening of evil in this world either.

 

[Mudgely]

"Japan nixed Obama atomic bomb apology

We haven’t heard much lately about what critics call Barack Obama’s world apology tour, in which he has told foreigners how sorry he is for America’s past misdeeds. But over at the Power Line blog my American Enterprise Institute colleague Steven Hayward has linked to a September 28 story in the Japan Times about how Obama reportedly sought in fall 2009 to visit Hiroshima and/or Nagasaki, presumably to apologize for his predecessor Harry Truman’s decision to drop atomic bombs on the two cities."…

Entire entry: campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/japan-nixed-obama-atomic-bomb-apology

Haha… Great hypocrisy at the end of the article. Condemning Wikileaks while using the leak. Perfect.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Japan nixed Obama atomic bomb apology

Inaccurate news story

 

[louis91766]

Sigh. Those “innocent children and other civilians” were all manufacturing armaments for the Japanese army and navy. I will be happy to provide you with cites upon request.

Cites?

No kidding? Children one, two and three years old woking in factories?

 

[louis91766]

Where did you learn your history? Most legitimate historians agree that only Soviet troops raped German women with impunity during the end days of WWII.
Your statements are a horrendous insult to the memory of the US, Canadian, Brittish, Free Polish and Free French troops that fought in WWII. All reported cases of rape were severely punished by courts martial by these forces.

Were the Soviets American allies or not?

 

[Raskolnikov]

Darryl1958:

Bottom line, defeating Imperial Japan was a lessening of evil in the world. Doing so in a timely manner was horrific. By no means is it something we need to celebrate, but an apology would not lead to a lessening of evil in this world either.

Your logic is faulty for three reasons. 1) Japan was already planning on surrendering, but they were planning on surrendering to the USSR, which makes geographic sense, since they bordered Russia; the US did not bomb Japan to make them surrender; it bombed them to make them surrender to us. The dilemma you offer is a false one.

1. The Catholic Church does not endorese utlitarianism. And thankfully, because even a president, when given authority to define what is the greater good, may do horrible things for reasons that turn out not to be valid. It proper that some actions be considered simply wrong, no exceptions.

And 3) Apologizing almost never lessens the evil the world. That’s not why people typically apologize.
George Stegmeir:

Where did you learn your history? Most legitimate historians agree that only Soviet troops raped German women with impunity during the end days of WWII.
Your statements are a horrendous insult to the memory of the US, Canadian, Brittish, Free Polish and Free French troops that fought in WWII. All reported cases of rape were severely punished by courts martial by these forces.

All sourcves (except perhaps a few Russian denialist ones) accept that many Soviet troops raped and murdered Germans en masse (somewhere around 2 million civilian deaths) in addition to expelling 10 million from their ancestoral homeland. My maternal grandparents were among those.

In the west, there were some issues after the wear. The US, for example, refused to allow the Red Cross to give food or medical treatment to German civilians, for no reason other than vindication. Generally, though, Germans fled west at the end to try to surrender in the west, because, whatever they might endure in American or British POW camps, they would most likely be shot in the head if captured in the East, or put into concentration camps if caught in Czechoslovakia.

 

[GKC]

Your logic is faulty for three reasons. 1) Japan was already planning on surrendering, but they were planning on surrendering to the USSR, which makes geographic sense, since they bordered Russia; the US did not bomb Japan to make them surrender; it bombed them to make them surrender to us. The dilemma you offer is a false one.

1. The Catholic Church does not endorese utlitarianism. And thankfully, because even a president, when given authority to define what is the greater good, may do horrible things for reasons that turn out not to be valid. It proper that some actions be considered simply wrong, no exceptions.

And 3) Apologizing almost never lessens the evil the world. That’s not why people typically apologize.

All sourcves (except perhaps a few Russian denialist ones) accept that many Soviet troops raped and murdered Germans en masse (somewhere around 2 million civilian deaths) in addition to expelling 10 million from their ancestoral homeland. My maternal grandparents were among those.

In the west, there were some issues after the wear. The US, for example, refused to allow the Red Cross to give food or medical treatment to German civilians, for no reason other than vindication. Generally, though, Germans fled west at the end to try to surrender in the west, because, whatever they might endure in American or British POW camps, they would most likely be shot in the head if captured in the East, or put into concentration camps if caught in Czechoslovakia.

At the time the bombs were dropped, absolutely no one in Japan, in any position to do so (and that meant the Supreme Council for the Conduct of the War/Saiko Senso Shido Kosein Kagi), was attempting to surrender, in any fashion.

In June/July, Togo, with the agreement of the Emperor, and without the opposition of the hardliners on the Supreme Council, was attempting to use the Japanese ambassador in Moscow, Sato, to feel out the Soviets as to their willingness to act as intermediaries to negotiate a favorable end to the fighting, not to surrender. This, as Sato replied to Togo on several occasions, was a non-starter. The only way to end the war was submission to the Potsdam Declaration. The Japanese (that is, the Supreme Council for the Conduct of the War) had refused to do. Sato was quite correct. And in any case the Japanese could not have surrendered to the Soviets. They weren’t at war with them, until just after the 2nd bomb was dropped. Which lead to the gozen kaigen, immediately following in which the Emperor directed that the Potsdam Declaration be accepted. Five days later, Japan formally signaled her surrender, and the Emperor issued the Imperial Rescript.

I’ve given the details on this, including the position of the “5/4 conditions” hardline members of the Council, led by Anami, and the “negotiation” faction, led by Togo, many times, in the recent threads on this subject in the Social Justice and The Rock sub-fora. And many times in the recent years, as the topic comes up each summer. I really don’t feel like doing the details again, but one might read Frank’s DOWNFALL, or Smith and McConnell’s THE LAST MISSION, for excellent accounts of what was going on. As one might also read Maddox (ed.)HIROSHIMA:THE MYTHS OF REVISIONISM, Newman/TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT, or a long list of other titles I’ve recommended in the past. It is a complicated story.

The claim of denying food/medical attention is usually traced to James Bacque/OTHER LOSSES and refuted in Bischoff&Ambrose/EISENHOWER AND THE GERMAN POWS. I am no expert on the subject; one may read and decide. The likelihood of Bacque’s claims being accurate seems small to me.

GKC

 

[GKC]

When it comes to questions like were German prisoners of war treated well, or whether German women were brutalized, or even if America was the one that started the war with Japan, what I hope historians would look at is all the evidence, and not just that, but rather to look at all the evidence available in the context of the times, the norms, and in relationship to what the enemy is doing.

To the extent that a reader of history is identifying with one side or the other, then self-criticism is a welcome tool as well, necessary for improvement in the planing and execution of the next conflict.
But, to the extent that the reader of history is no longer identifying with the side that he is criticizing, then this is no longer a self-criticism really but usually is just a form of propaganda.

Demands for a one-side apology from Obama—undoubtedly not from the president as was misreported, but more likely on behalf of a left leaning anti-nuclear movement—comes off as precisely this kind of propaganda, as do many of the comments that followed.

Not choosing the lesser evil, but choosing the lessening of evil; that, as far as I know is how Catholics are being asked to regard these kind of matters.

Bottom line, defeating Imperial Japan was a lessening of evil in the world. Doing so in a timely manner was horrific. By no means is it something we need to celebrate, but an apology would not lead to a lessening of evil in this world either.

It was less horrific than any other possibility available, considering loss of life. But I don’t try to dictate moral judgments. I deal in history.
.
GKC

 

[Darryl1958]

It was less horrific than any other possibility available, considering loss of life. But I don’t try to dictate moral judgments. I deal in history.
.
GKC

If you are a historian, that is what is absolutely necessary, and more and more rare to find.

As Christians however, we are called to struggle with God in these matters. Without good information to inform our moral judgments, chances are we will be led into making the wrong ones. In a world where today’s Hitlers and Hirohitos have access to nuclear weapons too, correct historical understanding is more critical then ever.

 

[Mar044]

i think you really should look at memorial museum of what the bomb did, this is why people say i have problems with America, nobody ever does research, nobody looks at pictures, they just are closed minded, think what they are told…and why does the world hate America many Americans ask…, oh wait they think everyone is Jelious s of them lol…some Americans have surprised me and i like but seriously as posts go on, its getting sad that they think they could do no wrong. sigh why do i think in a few posts GDC or whats is name is will post on my reply lol.

 

[GKC]

i think you really should look at memorial museum of what the bomb did, this is why people say i have problems with America, nobody ever does research, nobody looks at pictures, they just are closed minded, think what they are told…and why does the world hate America many Americans ask…, oh wait they think everyone is Jelious s of them lol…some Americans have surprised me and i like but seriously as posts go on, its getting sad that they think they could do no wrong. sigh why do i think in a few posts GDC or whats is name is will post on my reply lol.

I’d guess because you’ve experienced it before.

I’ve done research on the subject of the end of WWII for over 15 years, from all aspects, including the revisionist. As I have done in many other areas, such as on G.K. Chesterton, from whom I take my board name, for over 50 years. I like knowing things, when the subject interests me, and lots of subjects do. It’s why I own around 35,000+ books. total. One of which, in particular (among many), illustrates the results of the two bombs, both on the cities and on the survivors, in 175 pages of pictures (Goldstein, Dillon & Wenger/RAIN OF RUIN). As with all the other books I’ve mentioned and own, I recommend it. I always recommend reading books, on all aspects of the subject you are interested in.

I’ve been involved in discussions on this subject, in places like this, for years. I’ve yet to meet any American that thinks America can do know wrong. But I’ve met a lot of folks whose knowledge of history is, basically, nil. That’s why I post on the topic. Something I hate doing. Keep saying I’ll quit. And don’t.

GKC

 

[GKC]

If you are a historian, that is what is absolutely necessary, and more and more rare to find.

As Christians however, we are called to struggle with God in these matters. Without good information to inform our moral judgments, chances are we will be led into making the wrong ones. In a world where today’s Hitlers and Hirohitos have access to nuclear we aons too, correct historical understanding is more critical then ever.

I’m not an historian, but I read a lot of them. I’m a book collector whose collection is partially driven by areas which engage my interest, and many, many do, in history and literature. My wife always loves it when she hears me say, of something, “I need to know more about this”. It means a new book collecting area is opening. Fortunately, I married a book collector.

As to moral judgements on subjects like this, you’re right. In the end, though, as I often remind RCs that I discuss this with, they should affirm whatever the magisterium requires them to affirm, on a given subject, with whatever degree of theological certainty appertains thereto. As long as discussions on the bombs is about what the Church teaches on the subject, I don’t participate. If it gets into dubious, doubtful, debatable or down-right goofy “history” (and you can find a lot of opinions on this subject) I do participate. Don’t enjoy it, but can’t resist.

GKC

 

[SamH]

rather then sight what i know, explain this

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment

during war they were treated that way, and after the war history books and people defending the drop of the bomb, defend it like only American or allies were saved, but nobody says at the expense of the Japanese.

Actually millions of Japanese owe their lives to those bombings too. The death toll of an allied invasion of the main Japanese islands would have been extremely high for the Japanese - as they had been on other islands that the allies had landed on. The Allies fully expected resistance to the last even among the civilians - as the Japanese preparations for civilian defense show. The atomic bombs saved lives on both sides.

 

[SamH]

This is not true as many Germans were held in concentration camps, and in addition, many German women were brutalised, beaten and raped by allied soldiers.

The Germans invasion of the Soviet Union included much of the same. Essentually the Germans got as good as they gave.

 

[GKC]

Actually millions of Japanese owe their lives to those bombings too. The death toll of an allied invasion of the main Japanese islands would have been extremely high for the Japanese - as they had been on other islands that the allies had landed on. The Allies fully expected resistance to the last even among the civilians - as the Japanese preparations for civilian defense show. The atomic bombs saved lives on both sides.

As seen in the Ketsu-Go defense plan for the Home Islands, for example.

Your conclusion is correct.

GKC

 

[louis91766]

In a world where today’s Hitlers and Hirohitos have access to nuclear weapons too, correct historical understanding is more critical then ever.

I see that as a problem since the USA has set a precedent in defending the use of atomic weapons.

 

[louis91766]

The Germans invasion of the Soviet Union included much of the same. Essentually the Germans got as good as they gave.

In many cases German women had nothing to do with it and I don;t see the justification for the allied forces to beat and rape them. It seems to me like this should have been declared a war crime.

 

[SamH]

In many cases German women had nothing to do with it and I don;t see the justification for the allied forces to beat and rape them. It seems to me like this should have been declared a war crime.

The Russian, Polish, and Lithuanian woman and children didn’t have anything to do with the Germans invading their country either but Germans still raped and killed them by he millions - my grandmother, twin infant uncles and great aunt included. If the Germans didn’t want to reap the whirlwind maybe they should have abided by some sort of “civil” conduct of war of their own - as they did for the “most” part in the west.

As for it being a war crime, I believe it has been called that. But without starting WW3 there was no means of forcing a judgement.