Jesus’ burial site found - film claims

[slyboots]

Some people are going to be gullible enough to fall for this malarkey.
Some will see it as it is. A way to make money for Simca and James.
And some of us wish they would put this kind of stuff on Myth Busters.
MYTH BUSTED! Not only is this not Jesus’ burial box, it’s not even anyone related to him. It’s not in the city his family lived in. Aside from the obvious reason, he didn’t leave any bones behind, if this was Jesus burial place…And his bones were there…WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WILLING TO BE MARTYRED FOR BEING CHRISTIANS!!! If this is all a hoax, why die for it?
James Cameron is a film director. Why would any Christian throw out their hope in Christ because this fool has no faith?

 

[blessedtoo]

John Dominic Crossan strikes again !

 

[PepeRoni]

So many weak Catholics! You let the atheist/agnostic crowd with the standard pseudo-intellectual responses unravel you faster than superman on laundry day.

Geez, this ‘find’ was exhaustively debated 20 years ago. Don’t you people follow history - especially that which involves the Church???

No, that’s why we have you

 

[CarlosG]

So who watched it? What are your thoughts on it? I thought it was pretty interesting but I need to do some more research before I say anything concrete about it.

 

[mchale]

Ok, I have watched the documentary… and most of the Ted Koppel look at the show that reviews it.

Just a couple of thoughts. 1. There really was nothing in the documentary that hadn’t come to light prior to the program.
2. The archeologists who reviewed the program were quite mortified at what they saw. They didn’t like the methodology displayed; I particularly liked the one who claimed it was archeo-porn.

The connection between Marianme and Mary Magdeline remains tenuous at best. The linking of Mathia to the family of Jesus was something that was somewhat interesting, but ultimately purely speculation.

In any case, even if we accept the linking of Marianme, Mary, Jesus, and Jose, they still basically have Mathia and Judah who essentially are added to the family despite the fact that there are no references in the Bible to them being family members.

Just one last thought, the presentation of the statistical evidence actually shows a flaw in the methodology. The case for the tombs would be far stronger (and match the odds they quoted) if only the four ossuaries were found. With the 10 ossuaries, and two names that didn’t really match the Biblical record, I think the odds of the other 4 names sowing up together are greatly overstated. To put it in statistical terms, the odds as presented are the odds of select 4 out of 4. In reality the odds should be calculated as select 4 out of 10. To put it in other terms, if I roll a dice 4 times, then the odds of me getting 6 four times is 1 in 1296. If I roll the dice 10 times, the odds of getting 4 6s is considerably better.

–
Bill

 

[Riley259]

Mr. Wetherington has written a scathing review on his blog,
benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/02/jesus-tomb-titanic-talpiot-tomb-theory.html
“THE JESUS TOMB? ‘TITANIC’ TALPIOT TOMB THEORY SUNK FROM THE START”. I highly reccommend reading it, as he thoroughly debunks this nonsense point by point.

With regard to the James ossuary fraud he has this to say:

"One more thing of importance. The James ossuary, according to the report of the antiquities dealer that Oded Golan got the ossuary from, said that the ossuary came from Silwan, not Talpiot, and had dirt in it that matched up with the soil in that particular spot in Jerusalem. In fact Oded confirmed this to me personally when I spoke with him at an SBL meeting. Why is this important? Well because the ossuaries that came out of Talpiot came out of a rock cave from a different place, and without such soil in it. To theorize that there was a Jesus family tomb, and yet the one member of Jesus’ family who we know was buried in Jerusalem for a long time did not come out of the ground from that locale contradicts this theory. Furthermore, Eusebius reports that the tomb marker for James’ burial was close to where James was martyred near the temple mount, indeed near the famous tombs in the Kidron valley such as the so-called tomb of Absalom. Talpiot is nowhere near this locale.

Scholars and archeologists worldwide have already lambasted the supposed “Jesus Tomb” as a sensationalistic hoax. Here are some assorted headlines & snippets.

JESUS’ TOMB DISCOVERY IS TITANIC FRAUD
catholicleague.org/07press_releases/quarter_1/070226_jesus_tomb.htm

“Israeli archeologist Amos Kloner was in charge of the 1980 investigation of the tomb that Cameron-Jacobovici have seized on 27 years later to make their allegations. ‘The claim that the burial site has been found is not based on any proof, and is only an attempt to sell,’ Kloner says. He adds, ‘I refute all claims and efforts to waken a renewed interest in the findings. With all due respect, they are not archeologists.’ Indeed, Kloner has branded their claims ‘impossible’ and ‘nonsense.’ Moreover, he says there is ‘no likelihood’ that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb. ‘It makes a great story for a TV film,’ he concludes.

“Joe Zias, who spent a quarter-century as an archeologist at the Rockefeller University in Jerusalem, said that ‘Simcha has no credibility whatsoever.’ Zias isn’t shooting from the hip: Jacobovici’s credibility explodes when one considers that he still believes the 2002 tale about an ossuary with the inscription, ‘James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.’ On June 18, 2003, the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) condemned this claim as a modern forgery—this was the unanimous decision of a 15-member IAA committee. Agreeing with this decision were Harvard’s Frank Cross and Tel Aviv University professor Edward Greenstein.

Jerusalem Experts Trash Jesus’ Bones Claim
cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200702/FOR20070227b.html

Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - Claims in a new documentary that an ancient tomb discovered decades ago outside of Jerusalem contained the bones of Jesus and his family may be a great money-making gimmick - but scientifically, it is nonsense, according to leading archeologists and scholars in Jerusalem.

**‘Jesus tomb’ documentary ignores biblical **
& scientific evidence, logic, experts saybpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=25053
"NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)–The controversial claim by an upcoming television special that researchers have discovered Jesus’ “tomb” falls apart under both scientific scrutiny and simple logic, scholars in New Testament and archaeological studies say.

’Lost Tomb of Jesus’ Claim Called a Stunt. Archaeologists Decry TV Film
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/26/AR2007022600442.html
"Leading archaeologists in Israel and the United States yesterday denounced the purported discovery of the tomb of Jesus as a publicity stunt.

Scorn for the Discovery Channel’s claim to have found the burial place of Jesus, Mary Magdalene and – most explosively – their possible son came not just from Christian scholars but also from Jewish and secular experts who said their judgments were unaffected by any desire to uphold Christian orthodoxy."

Thanks for the article links - they will come in handy in explaining this debacle to the Da Vinci crowd.

 

[blessedtoo]

No mention at my Mass but I understand from other threads that many heard homilies today on this topic. Sounds like your Pastor was spot on!

 

[LeahInancsi]

I’m getting in late on this heresy, but there’s nothing on TV (not even EWTN) at 12am.

Regardless of what so-called proof these jokers provide, it’s all garbage because I can’t believe it took almost 2,000 years to uncover this fabulous revelation.

Just had to get this off my chest. Maybe Ted Koppell’s chat will debunk this fantasy.

 

[Faith1960]

I’m getting in late on this heresy, but there’s nothing on TV (not even EWTN) at 12am.

Regardless of what so-called proof these jokers provide, it’s all garbage because I can’t believe it took almost 2,000 years to uncover this fabulous revelation.

Just had to get this off my chest. Maybe Ted Koppell’s chat will debunk this fantasy.

He was actually rather rude to the Simcha J. and Tabor, showing bias throughout the interview, which made him appear unprofessional. I was hoping the Christian side of the panel would shoot down all the documentary’s claims but, instead were criticizing the filmmakers without offering anything solid to support their side. It’s still early though, the program just ended over 2 hours ago. Maybe in the days to come, we’ll have enough information to end this once and for all.

 

[solomonskey]

Before I get into the meat of this, now that everyone has seen the docudrama, I’d like to comment of the hate this has raised, which is umbecoming of Christians in general. There were many Anti-Semetic postings on the Net, the usual “Jews control Hollywood” nonsense. I don’t think Catholics or anyone should react with bigotry or racism. Somehow, everyone has forgotton that Christ and his family were Jews, not Catholics or Protestants, and not blue eyed blondes … so let’s show our best side and have intelligent debates without racial attacks.
Okay now for some facts:

Aside from the so-called new location in Jerusalem, the concept of finding the Lost Tomb of Jesus is nothing new…
Other sites in the Orient have just as much mystery, science, and history behind them: Kashmir, Tibet–and even Brittan. If you watched the follow-up segment after the “docu-drama” Ted Koppel voiced my question right out of the shoot.
“Why didn’t you conduct DNA tests on the other ossuaries, those of Joseph, and Maria in particular, to determine parental links?” The film’s director begged off by saying there wasn’t sufficient residue to conduct testing of the other alleged family members. It was disappointing from my view. They didn’t address the Cohen Modal Haplotype (the standard genetic signature of the Jewish priestly family) nor was any carbon dating done.
The FBI’s combined DNA Index System or CODIS has a DNA marker taken from the Shroud of Turin, which was taken by a top geneticist from the U of Arizona, Tucson, who was also co-developer of the CODIS system. Now comparing the footprint from Jerusalem with the Shroud would have been interesting. (Stories that the Shroud was made in the 12th century have been proven false, since it was proved that those cloth samples were from a more recently added piece of cloth).
I have to agree with Ted that the science was hyped, chopped into sound bites, and not followed to sufficient and logical conclusions.
The patina test was also bogus or a best–misleading. The trial they referred to involving Golan, the alleged antiquities dealer and forger of the James Brother of Jesus ossuary, demonstrated through expert testimony, the process of crafting fake patina residue. A tablet alleged to be from Solomon’s Temple was originally authenticated because the patina was accurate for that time and region that it was supposed to come from. Later forensic examination showed how the patina could be faked and created by one who knew the exact tests that would be run by forensic archeologists. Indicted along with Golan were forensic and linguistic experts who were also charged as principals in the fraud.
Photo of Fake Tablet :
baptiststandard.com/2003/2_3/images/joashtablet.jpg
Then there was the fake Solomon’s Temple Pomegranate, which later, under electron-microscope examination showed modern tool markings and metal residue.
By throwing in the James ossuary as bolstering their probability statistics, the producers muddied their logic and science.

The Masonic Connection? The director throws out tantalizing teasers in his interviews on
Youtube …
Link to interviews not seen in film: […. concerning the chevron and dot within over the tomb’s entrance, but it was never discussed in the film.

Would any scholars like to way in on if this symbol was used in that time period of the first century, specifically by Essenes or Judaean rabbis?
I have seen use of the pentacle in Paleo-Hebrew art work or talismans but not the so-called all-seeing eye. Just pointing to the Egyptian origins doesn’t connect the dots. Plus the director’s interview hints that the Templars carved the symbol over the tomb after finding it … no mention was made as to determining the age of the carving or how the same symbol was then found on the ossuary of Simon they showed which had been discovered in the Jesuit monastery. Or why the Templars, according to their reasoning, left the tomb untouched.
I brought out the use of the eye in the pyramid in my novel and also referred to Jacopo’s the Supper at Emmaus and other tapestries and artwork etc. in the Vatican that display the symbol some time ago.
Maybe I should give Lewis Perdue a ring …

Richard D. Weber](DAN BROWN'S THE LOST SYMBOL REVEALED)

 

[puzzleannie]

Priest mentioned it and warned about it, and we had already prepared an info sheet with good links refuting the claims made in the documentary (thanks to you guys), and catechists were prepared with ammunition for the inevitable questions raised by the youth. We had a brief discussion on the topic following today’s confirmation and RCIA sessions as well.

 

[Montalban]

As usual I attended worship at the First Congregational Methodist Church this morning and the sermon made mention several times about the new James Cameron documentary in which he makes the (ridiculous) claim of finding the tomb of Jesus Christ.
Our Pastor, Rev. Sparks said that it is his opinion that this is just part of a Hollywood plan to discredit Christianity as a whole and that the church should not just sit back and take it, he believes Christians everywhere should protest the film.
Has this been mentioned in any of the Baptist, United Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic etc. churches you folks attend?
Do you think my pastor is taking it to far or is he on the money?
WP

This topic died on another thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=136079

 

[mchale]

He was actually rather rude to the Simcha J. and Tabor, showing bias throughout the interview, which made him appear unprofessional. I was hoping the Christian side of the panel would shoot down all the documentary’s claims but, instead were criticizing the filmmakers without offering anything solid to support their side. It’s still early though, the program just ended over 2 hours ago. Maybe in the days to come, we’ll have enough information to end this once and for all.

Rude? I didn’t think he was that rude, I did think that Ted Koppel was rather skeptical and probably a little annoyed by Simcha’s early claim to being a journalist. As a media professional, Koppel I think recognized that Simcha was engaging more in speculation and persuasion than he was in actual documentation or science.

–
Bill

 

[Faith1960]

I’m not sure that complaining to the Discovery Channel is the right tact to take. What I did was to write to them, point out that, despite my being a devout Catholic, they had every right to show whatever they wished but also asked them when they intended to air a program on the historic accuracy of the claims of Christianity.

That was a good idea, Garysibio.

 

[Faith1960]

Rude? I didn’t think he was that rude, I did think that Ted Koppel was rather skeptical and probably a little annoyed by Simcha’s early claim to being a journalist. As a media professional, Koppel I think recognized that Simcha was engaging more in speculation and persuasion than he was in actual documentation or science.

–
Bill

I read posts from others on another message board, including those that don’t agree with the documentary, and plenty of people feel that Koppel kept interrupting his guests and put his journalistic professionalism aside, coming across as biased.

 

[Larry1700]

As usual I attended worship at the First Congregational Methodist Church this morning and the sermon made mention several times about the new James Cameron documentary in which he makes the (ridiculous) claim of finding the tomb of Jesus Christ.
Our Pastor, Rev. Sparks said that it is his opinion that this is just part of a Hollywood plan to discredit Christianity as a whole and that the church should not just sit back and take it, he believes Christians everywhere should protest the film.
Has this been mentioned in any of the Baptist, United Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic etc. churches you folks attend?
Do you think my pastor is taking it to far or is he on the money?
WP

Your pastor did what every pasor/priest should do, because unfortunately there are many church-goers who are weak in their faith, and must be given a “booster shot” now and then, especially when something like this comes along which can sway those people who don’t look at **all **the evidence.

Unfortunately my priest said nothing about it, but another poster on this thread said his priest made a big deal (I mean that in a good way) out of it.

You ought to thank your pastor, if you haven’t done so already.

 

[colliric]

Funny satire above but let’s get serious for a bit.
I am really concerned for those who are weak in their faith (marginal Christians/Catholics) and those gullable enough to believe such heresay.

The question I’d like to pose is this:
How many priests today spoke about this topic in their homilies? Our pastor did and put the address and e-mail address in our buliten to write to complain to the Discovery Channel.
So if your pastor or priest did or did not comment about this subject, please comment. How serious is the Catholic Church and Protestants faiths taking this being Sunday?

My preist did not mention it exactly but it was clear his homoliy was certainly about challenges to our faith amd “locking down jesus, Moses and Elijah in one location”. He made a big deal of the last few sentences of the gospel reading about the apostles not being able to talk about it(seeing Moses and Elijah with Jesus) and also the thing about them being tired and quite confused about what was going on then and there. He ended it makeing us look inside ourselves to see if we would have the corage to be like them and follow christ’s commands, Or if we would believe it was only a dream and be led astray. It was clearly about this latest challenge, but in an indirect way.

 

[Matthewd777]

I’ve read a lot about the Shroud of Turin in recent months, including information from The Shroud of Turin
Website. I learned this evening that despite what I’ve been reading, claims that the carbon dating was done on a repaired piece of the cloth which explains the late date, it’s widely accepted that the Shroud is not from the time of Jesus.
I think this new controversy about the tomb is going to rage on like the Shroud debate, each side claiming they’re right, few people, if anyone, willing to keep an open mind and letting the information direct them, wherever it may eventually lead.

If you’re interested in the Shroud of Turin, read this…it explains some more recent info on its authenticity. Pope John Paul II referred to it as a “relic,” which means it is authentic.
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/SHROUD.TXT

 

[Faith1960]

Your pastor did what every pasor/priest should do, because unfortunately there are many church-goers who are weak in their faith, and must be given a “booster shot” now and then, especially when something like this comes along which can sway those people who don’t look at **all **the evidence.

Unfortunately my priest said nothing about it, but another poster on this thread said his priest made a big deal (I mean that in a good way) out of it.

You ought to thank your pastor, if you haven’t done so already.

I hope our priests address this soon. I’d especially be interested in hearing, among other things, a convincing explanation for why there’s an interesting carving above the entrance to the tomb and what it actually means. From what I’ve read so far, carvings above or near tombs like this were highly uncommon in those days. Supposedly, only two or three other tombs with carvings belonging to regular people have been found in Israel; typically, tombs with such carvings belonged to families that were special in some way.
The symbol, an upside down “V” is supposedly called a “chevron” which is a symbol indicating people who carry state messages, proclamations and the like. A circle, which was found below the upside down “V” is a symbol of eternity, or, as some might say, means God.
I think it’s fairly obvious that someone important was buried there, someone who spoke about the Lord, but…who? I’m waiting for our priests to address this but I’m afraid I may have a long wait.

 

[colliric]

I hope our priests address this soon. I’d especially be interested in hearing, among other things, a convincing explanation for why there’s an interesting carving above the entrance to the tomb and what it actually means. From what I’ve read so far, carvings above or near tombs like this were highly uncommon in those days. Supposedly, only two or three other tombs with carvings belonging to regular people have been found in Israel; typically, tombs with such carvings belonged to families that were special in some way.
The symbol, an upside down “V” is supposedly called a “chevron” which is a symbol indicating people who carry state messages, proclamations and the like. A circle, which was found below the upside down “V” is a symbol of eternity, or, as some might say, means God.
I think it’s fairly obvious that someone important was buried there, someone who spoke about the Lord, but…who? I’m waiting for our priests to address this but I’m afraid I may have a long wait.

I don’t believe it, but I would not be surprised if they found out it was not the tomb of Jesus, but was the tomb of Mary Magdalene(Remembering that Women could be leaders in the church at such an early stage), who may have married into a family after Jesus, son of god, was ressurected, and she may have married a different “Jesus” remembering that the misnah speculates our Jesus name was actually spelled Yeshu
(not surprisingly pronounced Je-su) and not the similar Yehoshua(mostly translated as Joshua). Yehoshua is what is written on that bone box, not Yeshu. If the Jews are right(when they put Jesus back to Hebrew they use Yeshu because of the Misnah), It’s not our Jesus buried there.

Even if it is the tomb of Magdalene or of an apostle(Matthew?) or of a respected early christian family that does not make it the tomb of the holy family