Jesus’ burial site found - film claims

[Faith1960]

I wouldn’t be surprised. But James is related only tangentially to the documentary, so that’s a separate question itself. (I know they try to establish the James ossuary as entirely real, and also belonging in the Talpiot tomb, but even Jacobovici himself admits that may be a lost cause considering what we know about the James ossuary’s recent history.)

As far as I know, the James ossuary, if found to be genuine, isn’t in opposition to anything taught within the Protestant faiths, just Catholicism, right?

 

[Faith1960]

I think I promised a link here it is, within the article are the link I suggested plus a couple more good ones (this is in response to question in OP)
catholicexchange.com/node/34065

I guess this is the same thread, lots of duplicate threads

if this challenges your faith in the slightest, please enroll in a remedial CCD class right away.

Why assume that would change anything? If science can shed more light on the Bible, Jesus, Mary and history from Biblical times, what would taking a redundant CCD class do?

 

[Nullasalus]

As far as I know, the James ossuary, if found to be genuine, isn’t in opposition to anything taught within the Protestant faiths, just Catholicism, right?

Not even Catholicism, really. Catholic tradition is that Jesus’ ‘brothers’ were actually cousins. But if they turn out to be half-brothers (Sons of Joseph by a previous marriage, which is held to be a strong theory), it still harmonizes with Catholic dogma. But even if the ossuary were considered authentic, there are additional questions at hand for it - and keep in mind, it’s very unlikely that everyone who believes the inscriptions to be authentic will reverse themselves. This may well be a contested point for quite awhile.

Why assume that would change anything? If science can shed more light on the Bible, Jesus, Mary and history from Biblical times, what would taking a redundant CCD class do?

My response would be, because taking this documentary’s claims at face value is a poor idea in general, and a fair chunk of what they contend is controversial even within the ‘science’. Keep in mind more orthodox christianity in general, and the Church in particular, perform science as well - specifically this kind of science of evaluating, studying, and participating in archaeological digs and exploring the gospel.

Like with the James ossuary, science has its own problems. The conflict over its authenticity isn’t ‘scientists on one side, angry religious people on the other’. Neither with this documentary.

 

[Faith1960]

Mr. Wetherington has written a scathing review on his blog,
benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/02/jesus-tomb-titanic-talpiot-tomb-theory.html
“THE JESUS TOMB? ‘TITANIC’ TALPIOT TOMB THEORY SUNK FROM THE START”. I highly reccommend reading it, as he thoroughly debunks this nonsense point by point.

I already read that, days ago. James Tabor had much to address on that and left me with the impression that Witherington didn’t know what he was talking about. Let’s face it, they can talk about this all they want up until Sunday, but what they say means little until they actually see the documentary and more tests, by equally qualified individuals, are performed.

 

[Larry1700]

reason,

I see that Nullasalus has addressed most of your points much better than I can, but I did want to provide a few comments.

The Jesus character’s divinity was in doubt even among the very earliest Christians, so it couldn’t have been that obvious at the time, could it?

I’ve thought about this myself. If you compare it to people of today, simply because there’s something wonderful available doesn’t mean everyone will believe it, or even attempt to see for themselves. I work in Polysomnography (sleep studies). There are people who have sleep apnea, excessive daytime sleepiness, and/or snoring. Some of those don’t realize they have a problem – their spouse tells them they snore or stop breathing at night. For some, even if they realize they have a problem, they choose to ignore it. Then there are those who go to the doctor to seek help. The doctor may presribe a sleep study. The vast majority of patients show up for their study, but there’s the occasional person who simply won’t come in to have it done. For the patients that do have their study done, they use the available cure (CPAP machine, medicine for periodic leg movement syndrome, etc.), and find that they feel better as a result. Those that didn’t seek the cure don’t get better. My point is that I believe that Jesus offered a “cure,” but only some took advantage of it, either because they didn’t think they needed a cure, or they didn’t want to make the effort to walk to where Jesus was speaking at the time, or because they thought it was a hoax. The ones that did believe, well, they were so excited they had to share it with others, and went to their death proclaiming it.

I’ve always found that Christian believers are always ready to at least discuss the divinity issue, but they will fight tooth and nail any suggestion about there not having been any historical Jesus. The divinity thing can be argued, but proof of no historical Jesus would remove all basis for Christianity except as a gnostic mystery religion. If anything, a suggestion that remains of Jesus may have been found could be seen as a positive thing for Christianity. If that were the case, a Christian could still think of the resurrection as a more spiritual event rather than a bodily one (that’s exactly what I did before I finally left the Church). Even many of the early Christians thought of it that way, and they were a lot closer to the actual events than we are.

I’m probably not as well-read as you are, but this statement surprises me. The historicity and the divinity go hand in hand. If Jesus didn’t actually exist in human form, then His “teachings” were fabrications, the Crucifixion would be a hoax, and the Resurrection didn’t happen. If Jesus was a real person, but not the Son of God, then what’s the difference between listening to Him and anyone else saying nice things?

Larry, yes, I’ve read Aquinas, Augustine, etc. I see them as simply rationalizing in order to make philosophical ideas and theological ideas fit together within the religious box they lived in (the same as apologists do today). Religious mythologies throughout history have simply been ways of making ordinary people follow a certain philosophy without having to understand it (and almost always one suitable as a way of keeping the populace where the rulers wanted them).

I see them as attempting, as well as is humanly possible, to understand the important aspects of our faith. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think it’s uncommon, in many disciplines, to build a logical argument from certain known principles. Also, I’m sure you already know this, but Augustine fought AGAINST accepting Christianity for many years, and led a pretty bad life. However, his search for the truth (and his mother’s prayers for 30? years) eventually led him to accept it. BTW – Did you read ALL of the Summa? Congratulations! I’m only on Q16, and it looks like it’s going to take me years!

A mythology serves the same purpose on a larger societal scale as a parable does on a smaller personal one. Christianity is merely the mythology wrapper around a way of life which is the gradual marriage of Stoicism, Cynicism, Platonism, various mystery religions and Jewish mysticism, combined with the rituals and images of Mithraism (a traditional Roman Catholic church is basically a Mithraic temple, where just the names things have changed and some of the imagery has been revised). And even all of that goes back further to other ancient civilizations. All of these mythologies were honed gradually over thousands of years

.
It’s obvious that Christianity would share many things with Judaism. I would be very disappointed if it didn’t! I mean, Jesus and his Apostles were Jews, they started with the Jewish people when they began preaching the Gospel. (Gotta go. My patient just arrived. I’ll try to finish later.)

 

[Larry1700]

Okay, I’m back. Continuing my previous post…

A mythology serves the same purpose…gradual marriage of Stoicism, Cynicism, Platonism, various mystery religions and Jewish mysticism, combined with the rituals and images of Mithraism (a traditional Roman Catholic church is basically a Mithraic temple, where just the names things have changed and some of the imagery has been revised). And even all of that goes back further to other ancient civilizations. All of these mythologies were honed gradually over thousands of years.

In addition to what I posted earlier, I don’t find it surprising that, in spreading the Gospel, terminology was used which borrows from other beliefs. When explaining something new, it is helpful to use terminology already understood by the person to whom you’re providing the explanation.

…I don’t know if there’s a God. Nobody does…

If you’re sincerely searching for the truth, this should be where you spend your time. It is the most vital question you are faced with, because your very soul depends on it. Again, you probably already know this, but I want to emphasize it. This is the most fundamental question. If the answer is no, then there is no point in spending time/effort on the other related questions (Jesus, Catholic dogma, etc.) unless of course you are trying to convince others to stop believing in order to keep them from influencing your life in a way in which you don’t approve. If you’re not trying to convince others not to believe, then why should you care what they believe? You let the “idiots who won’t accept the obvious scientific evidence” go their merry way, like those who follow horoscopes. If the answer is yes, there is a God, then it is imperative that you do everything you can to try to find out the truth about Him. Are you living your life as He wishes, or not? Again, your soul depends on the answer. As for me, I cannot see how there could not be an intelligent creator. It makes far more sense than if there was not one.

I do hesitate to post such ideas, because it’s not really my intent to convince anybody to abandon their faith. I only want to introduce them to the uncertainties because I feel the entire world is moving towards a very destructive and dangerous kind of religious fundamentalism, and I don’t want the rest of us to go down with it.

These like conflicting statements. “…it’s not really my intent to convince anybody to abandon their faith” vs. “I only want to introduce them to the uncertanties…dangerous kind of religious fundamentalism, and I don’t want the rest of us to go down with it.”
If we who believe in God are doing our best to figure out what He wants from us, why would you expect us not to act on our beliefs? Atheists act on their beliefs. Scientists act on their beliefs. Those who believe child pornography is okay act on their beliefs. Why is it not acceptable for us to act on ours?

The less certainty there is about the “truths” every religion claims to represent, the less fundamentalism there will be. In fact, I sometimes wish there had been and still was a Jesus Christ, because I think that what he really intended was to free people from the religious fundamentalism of his time.

Again, conflicting statements. How can you speak of what you think Jesus really intended, if you don’t believe Jesus ever existed?

Again, I strongly recommend you spend a great deal of your time determining whether or not you believe there is a God. From that starting point, everything else will follow. I will pray for you, because it is the single most important question you will ever have to answer.

 

[adstrinity]

That TOTALLY is Jesus Our Saviour in that tomb. They have the dental records and this one x-ray of where He broke his arm when He was 12 matching the crack in a skelleton’s arm.

 

[JessicaJB]

wow, I have spent the last 2 hours reading about this non-sense.Then I go to yahoo.com and what is their top news story? “UFOs fight global warming?”…haha. Where do these people come from…

 

[Faith1960]

wow, I have spent the last 2 hours reading about this non-sense.Then I go to yahoo.com and what is their top news story? “UFOs fight global warming?”…haha. Where do these people come from…

I did notice that this is your very first post to CAF, Jessica, and right out of the gate you have criticism for somehing you claim to have been reading for two days. I have to ask, why did you bother continuing to read this for two whole days without making contribution to the discussion until now, if you feel it’s nothing more than nonsense?
As to your comment, specifically, if archaeologists ever uncover parts of an earlier UFO wreckage or scientists announce they have enough information to validate Hellyer’s claims, I’ll let them do their jobs and try to remain open to what they can teach us. Until then, I’ll assume that age is catching up with the man.

 

[colliric]

Can someone post about it as soon as it is shown. I live in Australia so I wont get to see it for a while.

 

[harinkj]

“The Jesus Family Tomb” a book by Simcha Jacobovici and Charles Pellegrino has just come into print. It documents the research that has led to the Discovery Channel’s program “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” which is discussed in another thread.

The book does go into a lot of detail and addresses many of the criticisms that have been leveled at previous discussions of the tomb, which was originally discovered in 1980. The book presents the scientific evidence behind the thesis that the tomb is in fact the tomb of Jesus and his family.

I read the book and it is very interesting and very effective in presenting the proof. It is well worth the time to read it.

• Kathie :bowdown:

 

[slyboots]

I don’t know if anyone else had said anything about this but videos in 33ad were really grainy and in black and white. So IMHO you won’t be able to prove a thing with them.
And since the neighborhood probably had at least 5-10 Yeshuas and Miriams, it’s hard to say which ones were buried in the tombs these truly gifted scholars have found.
But it is interesting that in the video of the burial procession of this particular Yeshua (whomever he was) the ladies are carrying fans with the words “Levi’s accounting services. Let us help you with your taxes!”
Heck of a thing to have so much archeological materials and not be able to prove anything.

 

[Faith1960]

“The Jesus Family Tomb” a book by Simcha Jacobovici and Charles Pellegrino has just come into print. It documents the research that has led to the Discovery Channel’s program “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” which is discussed in another thread.

The book does go into a lot of detail and addresses many of the criticisms that have been leveled at previous discussions of the tomb, which was originally discovered in 1980. The book presents the scientific evidence behind the thesis that the tomb is in fact the tomb of Jesus and his family.

I read the book and it is very interesting and very effective in presenting the proof. It is well worth the time to read it.

• Kathie :bowdown:

If you have the time, can you share some of the details the book addresses? I’ve seen a lot of misunderstandings about what was said in interviews and news articles so it would be great to read from someone who’s read the book. :bounce:

 

[magician]

I already read that, days ago. James Tabor had much to address on that and left me with the impression that Witherington didn’t know what he was talking about. Let’s face it, they can talk about this all they want up until Sunday, but what they say means little until they actually see the documentary and more tests, by equally qualified individuals, are performed.

Why do you worry about “tests”? Whatever the scientific findings, you are committed to your faith, are you not? Even if all the evidence proved without a doubt that the remains were the Jesus, wouldn’t you defer to Church doctrine?

So what’s the problem here? I think the problem is that “faith” in an unknown is one thing, but “faith” in a proven fact may be something else…

 

[Caesar]

“The Jesus Family Tomb” a book by Simcha Jacobovici and Charles Pellegrino has just come into print. It documents the research that has led to the Discovery Channel’s program “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” which is discussed in another thread.

The book does go into a lot of detail and addresses many of the criticisms that have been leveled at previous discussions of the tomb, which was originally discovered in 1980. The book presents the scientific evidence behind the thesis that the tomb is in fact the tomb of Jesus and his family.

I read the book and it is very interesting and very effective in presenting the proof. It is well worth the time to read it.

• Kathie :bowdown:

You shouldnt be reading heresy.

 

[Faith1960]

Why do you worry about “tests”? Whatever the scientific findings, you are committed to your faith, are you not?

Sure, if information doesn’t come in to make what I believe in seem false. As I said in another thread, God gave me a brain and He expects me to use it. It’s very cliche’ to say but ever so true.

 

[magician]

Sure, if information doesn’t come in to make what I believe in seem false. As I said in another thread, God gave me a brain and He expects me to use it. It’s very cliche’ to say but ever so true.

Well that’s just great! If you know your “faith” you know that much of the doctrine is based on “faith”, or unproven “facts”.
So now you come to the table and say: “My brain was given by God, therefore, anything that my brain perceives as truth, or proven fact, negates Church teaching”.
How do you reconcile that when you receive the Eucharist??

 

[Faith1960]

Well that’s just great! If you know your “faith” you know that much of the doctrine is based on “faith”, or unproven “facts”.
So now you come to the table and say: “My brain was given by God, therefore, anything that my brain perceives as truth, or proven fact, negates Church teaching”.
How do you reconcile that when you receive the Eucharist??

:ehh: How do reconcile being judgemental toward others as you’re walking up to the altar to receive the Eucharist? I’d venture to guess that my answer is similar to yours.

 

[magician]

How do reconcile being judgemental toward others when you walk up to the altar and receive the Eucharist? I’d venture to guess that my answer is similar to yours.

I don’t think you know the answer to that question. Either you believe or you don’t. It’s that simple.

 

[Faith1960]

I don’t think you know the answer to that question. Either you believe or you don’t. It’s that simple.

I don’t know the answer to your question? LOL. Now you’re impersonating Carnac The Magnifcent, too? I’m impressed.