Jesus Christ - Bible Study

[Reformed]

When you continue through John chapter 3, it’s easier to see that Jesus was not teaching baptismal regeneration, but Jesus taught that we are regenerated by hearing, receiving and believing the gospel of God. It is through the instrument of faith in the gospel that we receive converting grace. Try reading this section as one revelation.

John 3

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[guanophore]

If water baptism gives the sinner a new heart to live a life to please and worship God, why do so many sinners who are baptized in water (including infants) no longer love and worship God?

They fall from grace.

Please see my posting on Ezekiel 36 above and notice that there is a distinction between a baptism done by the Spirit (Spirit baptism - Rom 6), and outward baptism done by men (water baptism).

No. Jesus joined the HS to the waters of baptism when He entered them. He is the baptizer. As the Apostle states:

Col 2:11-14
“In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses…”

The action of the HS is joined to the water.

1 Peter 3:20-22
“…in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you — not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”

Baptism is not a “removal of dirt from the body”, but an appeal to God for a clean conscious. Only the HS can accomplish this cleansing.

Acts 22:16
16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

Water baptism washes away sins because the one entering the water calls upon His name. It is by grace we are saved, through faith.

We can dip, sprinkle and dunk a sinner for the rest of his life, but if the Spirit is not present and active… all of the dipping, sprinkkling, and dunking will not change the heart of the sinner to love God.

Indeed.

He remains dead in his sins and treaspasses, unconverted.  The evidence to this error rests with all those who participated in a baptism done by the hands of men and remain unchanged. Water baptism done by the hands of men does not regenerate a sinner.

I would say it is the other way around. Those who are baptized without faith, where the circumcision of the spirit (without hands) is done does not regenerate. The hands of men involved are not the efficacious source of the grace, but the HS.

Further, the fallling away from faith after baptism does not mean that it was invalid.

For those who can make the link from the Old Testament sacrament of circumcision to the New Testament sacrament of baptism, here is additional insight:

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - rom 2

Amen.

Alive in Christ - Col 2
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits [1] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities [2] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

One is obligated to walk according to the grace he has received.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Here’s your obstacle: you don’t beleive the Holy Spirit is active in Baptism. We do. Why not? Where’s your Scriptural basis?

Second, circumcision is totally supportive of baptism, IF you beleive that sacraments such as baptism are both physical AND Spiritual. If you see sacraments as “man’s work” and not God’s work, then of course you’ll have problems.

Love is Patient

First, only the elect can receive the Spirit:

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you (John 14:17).

Here’s some passages directly on point – we receive the Holy Spirit only through faith:

**This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? (Galatians 3:2).

in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14).**

Baptism is an outward confession – although it is of course necessary it is always presented in a way that makes it clear it is not efficacious without faith.

Certainly entire households were baptized in Acts, although I point out the obvious: there is no evidence that infants were included in this practice. Moreover, since baptism isn’t efficacious without faith then the RCC doctrines pertaining to baptismal grace (concerning infants) seem fallacious. Obviously an infant cannot form a cognizant faith. We can even distinguish between infants and children (within the context of the words of Christ telling us we need to have the faith of a child to enter the kingdom). A child can form faith, and obviously a child will have an unquestioning faith (whereas as adults we are obviously much more inclined to question things). However, an infant cannot form faith in the same way a child can.

This obviously begs the question: what happens to infants who pass away prior to forming faith?

 

[Reformed]

I would say it is the other way around. Those who are baptized without faith, where the circumcision of the spirit (without hands) is done does not regenerate. The hands of men involved are not the efficacious source of the grace, but the HS.

How can you believe in infant baptismal regeneration if baptism without faith does not regenerate? Does the infant have faith when he is baptized? I think you are also invading the infant’s apparent free will to choose Christ for himself. And, how about divine election since not all infants are born into a Roman Catholic family to receive this apparent regenerating sacrament? I still don’t know what is the official Roman Catholic teaching on those infants who die without the apparent converting sacrament of infant baptism?

 

[guanophore]

I do believe the Spirit of God is active in sacraments. I do not believe the Spirit of God is active in all sacraments. For instance, the Mormon Christians believe in baptismal regeneration. Do you believe that the Spirit of God is regenerating sinners when the Mormon Christian performs the sacrament of baptism. Please look at the portion of John 3 when the Scripture compares the working of the Spirit like the wind

Mormons are not able to perform this sacrament, so no.

Paul cleary teaches the new creation (regeneration, rebirth, born from above, born again) is everything! Many who participate in water baptism never show signs of the new creation or new birth, correct? Roman Catholicism acknowledges baptism done in the triune formula. Just like Roman Catholicism, there are many Protestants who have been baptized with water who do not love God. Why is that, because they have not experienced the new birth.

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation

Amen! This is what we beleive happens in baptism, a new creation!

 

[ryanoneil]

John 3:5:

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Jesus is not speaking of two separate births, one by water and another by the Spirit, but of a single birth through the working of water and Spirit together. (we see the two referred to together)

I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.’ (John 1:33)

Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: ‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’" He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. John 7:38-39)

So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord. (1 John 5:7-8)

Immediately following, Jesus and the disciples begin a baptismanl ministry

After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. (John 3:22)

And other NT passages describe Baptism as a sacrament of salvation through the Spirit.

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:11)

not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, (Tit 3:5)

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet 3:21)

 

[Reformed]

When you continue through John chapter 3, it’s easier to see that Jesus was not teaching baptismal regeneration, but Jesus taught that we are regenerated by hearing, receiving and believing the gospel of God. It is through the instrument of faith in the gospel that we receive converting grace. Try reading this section as one revelation.

John 3

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Please look at the flow of this section of Scripture. The focus is on believing the good news of Jesus Christ, and not water baptism, correct? When everyone is finished making their point on baptismal regeneration or regeneration done by the Spirit through faith in the gospel, we should move on. Regeneration and justification are through the instrument of faith upon hearing, receivng and believing in the gospel appear to be the major theme of the 13 Epistles of Paul. Now, that’s a link back to the other Bible Study. Are we trusting in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf, or are we trusting in our participation in the sacraments as our basis of justification before God? Does God justify you by your personal obedience to partake in the sacraments, or does God justify you on the basis of Jesus’ obedience?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731

 

[Mickey]

I think you are also invading the infant’s apparent free will to choose Christ for himself.

Wha?

Do you leave your children alone with zero teaching or instruction regarding the Christian faith until they have reached some imaginary age of reason so that they may suddenly choose or reject Jesus Christ? No you do not.

We have our infants baptized with water and the Holy Spirit and we instruct them in the Christian faith so they may grow in Christ.

 

[Mickey]

Please look at the flow of this section of Scripture. The focus is on believing the good news of Jesus Christ, and not water baptism, correct?

Believe **and **be baptized

 

[Reformed]

Wha?

Do you leave your children alone with zero teaching or instruction regarding the Christian faith until they have reached some imaginary age of reason so that they may suddenly choose or reject Jesus Christ? No you do not.

We have our infants baptized with water and the Holy Spirit and we instruct them in the Christian faith so they may grow in Christ.

I just see a clear contradiction between the Catholic’s position on free will and infant baptismal regeneration. This has nothing to do with the command to bring up our children in the ways of the Lord. I believe children from houshold’s of faith are clean and are children of the promise (Acts 2, 1 Cor 7). They are covenant children, precious to God and highly privlidged over and above pagan children.

 

[Mickey]

When everyone is finished making their point on baptismal regeneration or regeneration done by the Spirit through faith in the gospel, we should move on.

Okay. But first I have a request for you. Upon reading the website “monergism”, (of which you provide a link), I stumbled on something extremely uncharitable.

It says: “…
we can only conclude that Eastern Orthodoxy is an inconsistent, unbiblical substitute for a Christ-centered Biblical Christianity.”

And so now I must ask you to remove the link from your signature. I do not know of other hate filled comments that might be on this website in reference to Holy Orthodoxy and/or Catholicism, but the link should be removed. If you do not remove the link I will request that the moderators remove it for you.

Thank you.

 

[M0nkey]

I just see a clear contradiction between the Catholic’s position on free will and infant baptismal regeneration.

This is based on this fact that God chooses you, instead of you choosing God. Our free will can only affect our salvation and the gifts we have in Christ Jesus. For example, you have free will to live out your faith (i.e., read the scriptures, give alms, go to mass, etc.), or not. God is in His Love and Mercy allows you to act freely, but He chose us first to be His from the foundations of the earth.

I know this may sound like a contradiction, but it is a paradox.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

**I do believe the Spirit of God is active in sacraments. I do not believe the Spirit of God is active in all sacraments. For instance, the Mormon Christians believe in baptismal regeneration. Do you believe that the Spirit of God is regenerating sinners when the Mormon Christian performs the sacrament of baptism. **Please look at the portion of John 3 when the Scripture compares the working of the Spirit like the wind.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Paul cleary teaches the new creation (regeneration, rebirth, born from above, born again) is everything! Many who participate in water baptism never show signs of the new creation or new birth, correct? Roman Catholicism acknowledges baptism done in the triune formula. Just like Roman Catholicism, there are many Protestants who have been baptized with water who do not love God. Why is that, because they have not experienced the new birth.

Galatians 6:15

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation

Sooo, are you saying that Catholics aren’t Christian?

Because we agree that Mormons are not, ergo, if you are comparing Catholics to Mormons, it only logically follows that you don’t believe in our Christianity (and apparently, neither do you accept the Orthodox’s Christiantiy, since you endorse the site in your signature…)

I’m afraid I’m not following your argument with baptismal regeneration. John is very clear about being reborn of “water AND spirit” together.

Love is Patient

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I just see a clear contradiction between the Catholic’s position on free will and infant baptismal regeneration. This has nothing to do with the command to bring up our children in the ways of the Lord. I believe children from houshold’s of faith are clean and are children of the promise (Acts 2, 1 Cor 7). They are covenant children, precious to God and highly privlidged over and above pagan children.

Does this mean you deny original sin in the children of believers?

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

Sooo, are you saying that Catholics aren’t Christian?

Because we agree that Mormons are not, ergo, if you are comparing Catholics to Mormons, it only logically follows that you don’t believe in our Christianity (and apparently, neither do you accept the Orthodox’s Christiantiy, since you endorse the site in your signature…)

I’m afraid I’m not following your argument with baptismal regeneration. John is very clear about being reborn of “water AND spirit” together.

Love is Patient

I believe the invisible church consists of sinners redeemed by the blood of Christ and united to Him forever. The body of Christ is made up of Christians first and foremost who worship in this life as Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, or may not even belong to a religious community. I believe there are only two groups in all humanity. Either an individual is united to Adam or united to Christ. Our religious affliliations do not make that determination.

 

[Reformed]

Does this mean you deny original sin in the children of believers?

Love is Patient

I believe in original sin which is clearly taught in Romans 5. Like King David, we are all sinners in our mother’s womb. We are all condemned in Adam.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Reformed]

Okay. But first I have a request for you. Upon reading the website “monergism”, (of which you provide a link), I stumbled on something extremely uncharitable.

It says: “…
we can only conclude that Eastern Orthodoxy is an inconsistent, unbiblical substitute for a Christ-centered Biblical Christianity.”

And so now I must ask you to remove the link from your signature. I do not know of other hate filled comments that might be on this website in reference to Holy Orthodoxy and/or Catholicism, but the link should be removed. If you do not remove the link I will request that the moderators remove it for you.

Thank you.

If the moderators want me to remove my link, then I will. I will wait for their instructions on the link issue. Reformed Theology is theology based on the Protestant Reformation. There is nothing written in the historic Protestant Confessions of Faith that is friendly to Roman Catholicism. Consider the significance of the split. The Roman Catholic response to the Reformation is the “Council of Trent”.

 

[Pax]

Infant baptism goes to the heart of the matter in regeneration and God’s gift of salvation.

The practice of infant baptism should immediately remove all doubts arising from claims of works righteousness. Obviously, the sacrament of baptism is what confers the forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This has been attested to by the many quotes given in the various posts on this thread. It is not the works of the infant or an adult that is being baptized.

It has already been pointed out that scripture says, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”[Mark 16:16]

If a person chooses not to believe anytime during their Christian walk subsequent to baptism they will not be saved. If an infant reaches the age of reason and freely chooses to reject the faith, that person will not be saved. Infant baptism is not a violation of free will. Baptism is a gift…the contents of the gift can be rejected. Thus free will is preserved.

 

[Pax]

Let’s look at infant baptism by way of scripture.

Infant Baptism

Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were being brought to him in order that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples spoke sternly to those who brought them; but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Luke 18:15-16
People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they sternly ordered them not to do it. But Jesus called for them and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them;

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (i.e.,baptism replaces circumcision and children were circumcised as infants)

Scripture describes entire households that were baptized such as those of the Roman jailer, Lydia, and Stephanes. Scripture does not indicate that children were not included.

Luke 1 :15
The angel Gabriel says that John the Baptist , “even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

LUKE 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
"I WANT you to know, brethren, that our fathers were **all **under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and **all were baptized **into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ."

This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The number of Israelites that left Egypt in Exodus is described as follows:

Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.

It is obvious from this account and Paul’s reference to passing through the Red Sea and baptism that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, and children no matter what their age.

Infants were members of the Old Covenant family of God, and infants are members of the New Covenant family of God.

I hope this helps.

 

[ryanoneil]

The OT envisions Yahweh pouring out his Spirit from obove in the messianic age.

**Until the spirit from on high is poured out on us. Then will the desert become an orchard and the orchard be regarded as a forest. (Isa 32:15)

No longer will I hide my face from them, for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD. (Ezek 39:29)**

This was depicted as water being poured upon Israel to wash away their sins and renew their hearts.

**I will pour out water upon the thirsty ground, and streams upon the dry land; I will pour out my spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing upon your descendants. (Isa 44:3)

I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. (Ezek 36: 25-26)**

These prophetic hopes should have prepaired Nicodemus to understand Jesus

Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this? (John 3:10)

John 3:5 is speaking of water AND the Spirit.