Jesus Christ - Bible Study

[guanophore]

Please look at the flow of this section of Scripture. The focus is on believing the good news of Jesus Christ, and not water baptism, correct?

This, AND NOT that. Here we go again. I think that Nicodemus heard Jesus teaching. He had witnessed His works. He came to faith by hearing. He approached Jesus because he was still baffled, though. Jesus gave him specific instruction about something that was not part of the Old Covenant. Scripture never separates hearing the Gospel in faith from water baptism. They go together.

When everyone is finished making their point on baptismal regeneration or regeneration done by the Spirit through faith in the gospel, we should move on. Regeneration and justification are through the instrument of faith upon hearing, receivng and believing in the gospel appear to be the major theme of the 13 Epistles of Paul. Now, that’s a link back to the other Bible Study. Are we trusting in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf, or are we trusting in our participation in the sacraments as our basis of justification before God?

There is not a division between them. We trust the person and work of Jesus as it is delivered to us inthe sacraments. Grace is the basis of the sacraments, they are channels through which His grace flows. We approach them because we have heard the Word and beleive. It is the oedience of faith.

Does God justify you by your personal obedience to partake in the sacraments, or does God justify you on the basis of Jesus’ obedience?

Here is that erroneous thinking again - this AND NOT that. It is both. The only way that we are able to act in the obedience of faith is because Jesus delivered us from the slavery of sin on the cross. He places HIs spirit within us, so that we can will and do what He desires. He delights in our obedience to his good, acceptable, an perfect will.

I just see a clear contradiction between the Catholic’s position on free will and infant baptismal regeneration. This has nothing to do with the command to bring up our children in the ways of the Lord. I believe children from houshold’s of faith are clean and are children of the promise (Acts 2, 1 Cor 7). They are covenant children, precious to God and highly privlidged over and above pagan children.

You have a deficient understanding of original sin, combined with a deficient understanding of the nature and function of baptism.

 

[Ronald_E]

There is no salvation outside of Christ. When we are united to Christ by faith, we become part of His body which is the church. RCIA classes, water baptism done by men, and membership to a religious institution does not mean you have been united to Christ by the Spirit.

Before Christ taught He acted and through His actions He drew people to Him. Then He taught.
His actions gave His words the validity needed for people to believe in Him.
Actions first. Otherwise words are meaningless.

 

[guanophore]

I believe the invisible church consists of sinners redeemed by the blood of Christ and united to Him forever. The body of Christ is made up of Christians first and foremost who worship in this life as Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, or may not even belong to a religious community. I believe there are only two groups in all humanity. Either an individual is united to Adam or united to Christ. Our religious affliliations do not make that determination.

Actually, the Body of Christ is made up “first and foremost” of Christ, who is the Head, and the HS, who is the Soul. Without the Spirit dwelling in the Body the Body is dead. The Church also includes those who have gone before us in the faith.

I agree with the rest of what you say.

I believe in original sin which is clearly taught in Romans 5. Like King David, we are all sinners in our mother’s womb. We are all condemned in Adam.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ok, then I am lost. If you also believe that being in a state of original sin (united to Adam) is the state into which children are born, why would you not want to wash this away, so that they could be open to being brought up in the Spirit?

I’m okay both ways, as long as we do not believe we are regenerated after we bring our own personal faith to the table as the cause of our regeneration.

This sounds like it might be a misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching. Catholics believe that we are saved by grace, through faith. The fact that we respond to God with the faith that He gave us does not equate to “cause” for regeneration (which we believe occurs by the HS in baptism). Faith is not separated from grace in salvation, but it is not the basis of it.

I think Jesus clearly taught about the visible and invisible church. How do you guys reconcile wheat and tares, and sheep and goats with the concept of invisible church? Jesus cleary taught that not all professers in Him will enter the kingdom God. Only those who do the will of the Father will be in Heaven according to divine revelation in the Scriptures.

What is there to “reconcile”? Jesus was clear that we should leave them alone, and the angels would sort them out.

 

[guanophore]

Since RC Sproul came up, what do you think about his gospel in a nutshell explanation?

The Bible makes it clear that we are justified not by our works, not by our efforts, not by our deeds, but by faith – and by faith alone. The only way you can receive the benefit of Christ’s life and death is by putting your trust in Him – and in Him alone. You do that, you’re declared just by God, you’re adopted into His family, you’re forgiven of all of your sins, and you have begun your pilgrimage for eternity."

— R.C. Sproul

ligonier.org/welcome_whatisthegospel.php

The Apostles taught that we are justified by grace. This grace is dispensed through faith. The faith that accesses saving grace is a faith that works. It is an obedient faith.

There is no salvation outside of Christ. When we are united to Christ by faith, we become part of His body which is the church. RCIA classes, water baptism done by men, and membership to a religious institution does not mean you have been united to Christ by the Spirit.

Christ is completely unified with His Church. The two cannot be separated. The Body without the Head is dead.

We are in agreement that when we are born again and are in Chrst, we become part of HIs body, the Church. The Apostles taught that this happens in baptims. I agree that RCIA or membership in an institution does not save anyone.

I don’t know what Reformed people do in baptism, it sounds like going through empty motions “of men”. But for those who have received the Apostolic Tradition, it is the Spirit that works in baptism. It is a circumcision made without hands.

 

[Pax]

…
…
Are we trusting in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf, or are we trusting in our participation in the sacraments as our basis of justification before God? Does God justify you by your personal obedience to partake in the sacraments, or does God justify you on the basis of Jesus’ obedience?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731

Justification/salvation depends upon all that is part of the good news. Reductionist statements are not useful and they deny part of the divine plan.

Do you really think that obedience has nothing to do with salvation?

Let me show you some things from scripture before you go totally sola again:

Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

1 Peter 1: 2
to the exiles…who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

Obviously, faith is the root. We cannot love God if we do not have faith. Likewise, we cannot obey God unless we have faith.

The fact is, however, that we will not be saved if we do not love God.

Likewise, we will not be saved if we disobey God.

We know these things because scripture tells us so. No amount of evasive manuevers will help you out of this one.

 

[mercygate]

For the most part, good. But I would point out that God is so amazing that he doesn’t “declare” us just–he makes us just, and of course, you and I both know the only place where the phrase “by faith alone” shows up in the Bible…

Love is Patient

Ditto. Now back to the Gospel of John.

 

[ryanoneil]

I was hoping someone was going to catch that!

Within Reformed Theology, you will see a debate between those who believe that

1. Regeneration comes before faith
2. Regeneration occurs at the exact same time of hearing the gospel. I believe Charles Spurgeon was very staunch on that position.

I’m okay both ways, as long as we do not believe we are regenerated after we bring our own personal faith to the table as the cause of our regeneration. You are pretty smart Ryan.

Even within Reformed circles, there is an extreme passionate debate in regards to believers baptism and infant baptism. I can embrace both positions, since both positions reject infant baptismal regeneration. I do favor infant baptism but I currently attend a non-denominal church which really means baptist in conviction.

If some believe that regeneration comes before faith than what is the problem with the Holy Spirit regenerating an infant before it comes to faith? (infant baptism)

 

[M0nkey]

When we are united to Christ by faith

It is not by faith alone.

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Jm. 2:17

water baptism done by men, and membership to a religious institution does not mean you have been united to Christ

These are only external signs of a spiritual reality. Regeneration does occur at baptism as we see in John. However, being a member of the Catholic Church does not give you eternal security or insider status so you can go to Heaven (kinda like punching your Church card and you are good to go).

You have to trust in the Lord! You must surrender your will to His will… and come and follow Him.

 

[Reformed]

So far it would appear, at least IMHO, that all of the scriptures quoted for the regenerative nature of baptism and those favoring infant baptism far outweigh the few scriptures that do not deny either, but merely speak to the component of faith.

Reformed…what say you?

https://notfound.typepad.com

Here is a very difficult question for those who believe in baptismal regeneration. If the Catholic Church believes that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the converting sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA course? As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. Are you saying that a person is unregenerate for one year, until he makes it through the RCIA classes, then the Catholic Church administers the sacrament which converts him to Christ?

 

[guanophore]

Here is a very difficult question for those who believe in baptismal regeneration. If the Catholic Church believes that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the converting sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA course?

God can regenerate whomever He likes whenever He desires. God is not confined by the sacraments.

As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. Are you saying that a person is unregenerate for one year, until he makes it through the RCIA classes, then the Catholic Church administers the sacrament which converts him to Christ?

No.

Conversion can take years.

What would make you think that conversion is confined to any sacrament?

What would it change for you if you chose to accept the Apostolic teaching about baptism?

 

[cfrancis]

Here is a very difficult question for those who believe in baptismal regeneration. If the Catholic Church believes that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the converting sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA course? As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. Are you saying that a person is unregenerate for one year, until he makes it through the RCIA classes, then the Catholic Church administers the sacrament which converts him to Christ?

Difficult for you, perhaps, but not for Catholics.

The Bible clearly presents us with a catechetical model: for the unbaptized, by God’s grace, a person responds to God’s calling, but is not yet born again. They are taught and then either choose to accept or not to accept.

Acts 8:
34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
37 And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Acts 16:
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

30 and after [the jailer] brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

And this after Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:
37 Now when [the gathered crowd] heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

But not all choose to accept Christ, as in Mk 10:
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
19 “You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”
20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.”
21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

 

[Mickey]

But for those who have received the Apostolic Tradition, it is the Spirit that works in baptism.

Gen 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

 

[Reformed]

God can regenerate whomever He likes whenever He desires. God is not confined by the sacraments.

That’s the problem with official Roman Catholic teaching. Many of her official positions contradicts other official positions…even on essential issues pertaining to salvation of sinners. God is not a God of confusion because God has spoke authoratively through His Holy Written Word called the Holy Bible. What we are experiencing together is the basis of the Protetstant Reformation. Should we believe official Roman Catholic dogma or Holy Scripture when they contradict? Heck, you cannot even tell me what consists of the deposit of faith of Sacred Oral and Written Tradition to even know what is official taught on many issues.

 

[Reformed]

Difficult for you, perhaps, but not for Catholics.

The Bible clearly presents us with a catechetical model: for the unbaptized, by God’s grace, a person responds to God’s calling, but is not yet born again. They are taught and then either choose to accept or not to accept.

The gospel of God’s grace is proclaimed. The elect are enabled by the Spirit to hear and believe. Then Christians are catechized after they are born from above. You cannot catechize a sinner who has not been converted because He does not have the Spirit in him to understand spiritual truth.

1 Corinthians 2

Proclaiming Christ Crucified
2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, [1] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony [2] of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Wisdom from the Spirit
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. [3]

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Mickey]

That’s the problem with official Roman Catholic teaching. Many of her official positions contradicts other official positions…even on essential issues pertaining to salvation of sinners. God is not a God of confusion because God has spoke authoratively through His Holy Written Word called the Holy Bible. What we are experiencing together is the basis of the Protetstant Reformation. Should we believe official Roman Catholic dogma or Holy Scripture when they contradict? Heck, you cannot even tell me what consists of the deposit of faith of Sacred Oral and Written Tradition to even know what is official taught on many issues.

Your Bible study has once again turned into an attack on the Latin Catholic Church.

The Catholics here have eloquently and Scripturally answered all of your objections–and now you are frustrated.

 

[Reformed]

Your Bible study has once again turned into an attack on the Latin Catholic Church.

The Catholics here have eloquently and Scripturally answered all of your objections–and now you are frustrated.

No my friend… I am far from frustrated. I just have a better understanding of Roman Catholicism as well as the Orthodox Faith. I spent several months discussing the Orthodox Faith with a convert to your church on another forum site. So, which church is the One True Church, the East or the West?

 

[cfrancis]

That’s the problem with official Roman Catholic teaching. Many of her official positions contradicts other official positions…even on essential issues pertaining to salvation of sinners. God is not a God of confusion because God has spoke authoratively through His Holy Written Word called the Holy Bible. What we are experiencing together is the basis of the Protetstant Reformation.

How you manage to type this and maintain, in your mind, any intellectual honesty is beyond me. The fruit of the Reformation has been nothing by confusion, with opposing doctrinal stances adopted, from the beginning, by those who gave birth to this experiment.

Should we believe official Roman Catholic dogma or Holy Scripture when they contradict? Heck, you cannot even tell me what consists of the deposit of faith of Sacred Oral and Written Tradition to even know what is official taught on many issues.

While you have been provided with more than adequate answers re: your inquiry of Sacred Tradition, you cannot provide official Protestant dogma and teaching on doctrinal issues.

 

[Mickey]

No my friend… I am far from frustrated. I just have a better understanding of Roman Catholicism as well as the Orthodox Faith. I spent several months discussing the Orthodox Faith with a convert to your church on another forum site. So, which church is the One True Church, the East or the West?

LOL! You are an expert because you speak to converts? Yes my friend, your frustrations are apparent.

Now you have changed tactics and are trying to pit East against West.:tsktsk:

What happened to your Bible study?

 

[cfrancis]

The gospel of God’s grace is proclaimed. The elect are enabled by the Spirit to hear and believe. Then Christians are catechized after they are born from above. You cannot catechize a sinner who has not been converted because He does not have the Spirit in him to understand spiritual truth.

Sadly, your position falls well short of the Biblical model.
Look to Acts 2, for example. Peter catechized all who were present, but not all believed and were baptized.

 

[Reformed]

LOL! You are an expert because you speak to converts? Yes my friend, your frustrations are apparent.

Now you have changed tactics and are trying to pit East against West.:tsktsk:

What happened to your Bible study?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the Word of God. Please, let’s continue but understand this image on post 36:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277394&page=3