Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[placido]

It speaks of sin that leads to death and the sin that doesn’t lead to death. It is possibly talking about the Gnostics and how they flatly denied the truth.

There is sin that leads to death (mortal sin) and sin that doesn’t lead to death (venial sin). Why argue if you and BRB1 are saying the same thing?
Even if the writer is “possibly talking about the Gnostics” the fact remains: mortal sin exists; venial sin exists.

placido

 

[Richard_Kastner]

1st John 5:16-17

If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but THERE IS SIN WHICH IS NOT MORTAL.

Thus, Mortals are the Big 10 level sins. Venials are the lesser ones … that the Eucharist will cleanse one of.

You know 2Peter1:20&21 says: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You must be a very holy person indeed, to change scripture the way you do. Here is what 1 John 5:15-17 really says: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

What Jn is adressing here is intercessory prayer and yes two types of sin. One that does not lead to death and one that does. Now, even Catholics beleive that mortal sin if repented of does not lead to death. So what is the only thing left. Well, it’s the sin that is not repented of, Right? Also, you will notice in v, 15 Jn is reminding us of what Jesus said in Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. But we must remember that the one being prayed for has a will also, and God cannot/will not forgive a person who does not repent. This is blaspheming the Holy Spirit Matt 12:31-32 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

This sin is the sin unto death. It cannot be forgiven, because no forgiveness is asked.

 

[djeter]

If you are interested I’ve been posting snatches of Michael J Gorman’s excellent little book called Reading Paul.

The latest, dealing with Co-Crucifixion is up today. Five others you can find under categories.

A sample:

"Not surprisingly, conventional understandings of “faith” do not measure up to Paul’s view. If we asked “people on the street” to define faith, we would receive a variety of answers. Among these might be “trust,” especially trust in something unseen, or perhaps “conviction,” especially conviction in spite of evidence to the contrary. To “lose faith” to many is to lose confidence, whether in a person, a relationship, a dream, an impersonal entity like a corporation or a government, or God.

Faith is a complex human experience, and Paul preserves this complexity while giving it a unique twist. While affirming its character as trust and conviction, Paul connects faith to the experience of Jesus as God’s faithful Son. Faith is more than trust; it is also fidelity, or loyalty.

At root, this is actually not unique to Paul; it is a very Scriptural and Jewish understanding of faith or trust as inclusive of loyalty. Israel’s call to know and trust the one true God was simultaneously a call to pledge allegiance to God, and to demonstrate that allegiance through a life of covenant loyalty. Scripturally speaking, faith and obedience are two sides of one coin…"

Rest here: payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/10/understanding-paul-6-paul-and-the-act-of-co-crucifixion/

God Bless

DJ

 

[Sellers1]

There is sin that leads to death (mortal sin) and sin that doesn’t lead to death (venial sin). Why argue if you and BRB1 are saying the same thing?
Even if the writer is “possibly talking about the Gnostics” the fact remains: mortal sin exists; venial sin exists.

placido

I’m not going to concede that because it’s not what the Scripture says.

 

[placido]

I’m not going to concede that because it’s not what the Scripture says.

Firstly, you rightly admitted there is “sin that leads to death” - that is what we call “mortal sin”.
Secondly, you rightly admitted there is sin “that does not lead to death” - that is what we call “venial sin”.
But now you wrongly refuse to “concede” because “it’s not what the Scripture says”.
That is somewhat confusing.

placido

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Firstly, you rightly admitted there is “sin that leads to death” - that is what we call “mortal sin”.
Secondly, you rightly admitted there is sin “that does not lead to death” - that is what we call “venial sin”.
But now you wrongly refuse to “concede” because “it’s not what the Scripture says”.
That is somewhat confusing.

placido

placido, please read post #240 I think it clears things up.

 

[PRmerger]

placido, please read post #240 I think it clears things up.

I’m a latecomer to this thread, so perhaps I’m missing something, Richard. But you do concede there is “sin that leads to death” (what we call “mortal sin”), and you admit there is sin “that does not lead to death" (what we call “venial sin”)…

You just object to the terms “mortal sin” and “venial sin”, then?

If so, then I think that arguing over semantics is silly. You’re free to use the phrase “sin that leads to death” and Catholics will use the phrase “mortal sin”, **but we both mean the same thing!! **

 

[placido]

placido, please read post #240 I think it clears things up.

Okay, I will do just that.

placido

 

[placido]

placido, please read post #240 I think it clears things up.

Okay, I have done just that, but instead of clearing things up, in post # 240 you confuse your personal opinion with what Scripture says.

You know 2Peter1:20&21 says: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You immediately contradict that very text by presenting your “private interpretation” as if it were Scripture.

You must be a very holy person indeed, to change scripture the way you do. Here is what 1 John 5:15-17 really says: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

What Jn is adressing here is intercessory prayer and yes two types of sin. One that does not lead to death and one that does.

That is a very important admission from you – “two types of sin”. Is that not what you are supposed to be denying here?

Now, even Catholics beleive that mortal sin if repented of does not lead to death. So what is the only thing left. Well, it’s the sin that is not repented of, Right?

So, your “two types of sin” don’t exist after all? Do you think that repented murder and murder that is not repented do make two types of sin?

Also, you will notice in v, 15 Jn is reminding us of what Jesus said in Jn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. But we must remember that the one being prayed for has a will also, and God cannot/will not forgive a person who does not repent. This is blaspheming the Holy Spirit Matt 12:31-32 31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

This sin is the sin unto death. It cannot be forgiven, because no forgiveness is asked.

Oh, I see - you are confusing “sin leading to death” with “sinning till death”.

placido

 

[Richard_Kastner]

.That is a very important admission from you – “two types of sin”. Is that not what you are supposed to be denying here?

I’m not denying there are two types of sin, just that they are mortal and venial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Now, even Catholics beleive that mortal sin if repented of does not lead to death. So what is the only thing left. Well, it’s the sin that is not repented of, Right?

So, your “two types of sin” don’t exist after all? Do you think that repented murder and murder that is not repented do make two types of sin?

I’ve included the part of my post that you refer to here. Now I know that English is not your first language, but how do you get from this post that I am denying that there are two types of sin?

Oh, I see - you are confusing “sin leading to death” with “sinning till death”.

placido

Ok, placido I see there is nothing I say that you are going to embrace. So I have to leave you to your confused Catholic veiw. There is no one so blind as him who will not see.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not denying there are two types of sin, just that they are mortal and venial.

Are the 2 types of sin “sins that lead to death” and “sins that do not lead to death”?

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’m not denying there are two types of sin, just that they are mortal and venial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Now, even Catholics beleive that mortal sin if repented of does not lead to death. So what is the only thing left. Well, it’s the sin that is not repented of, Right?

I’ve included the part of my post that you refer to here. Now I know that English is not your first language, but how do you get from this post that I am denying that there are two types of sin?

Ok, placido I see there is nothing I say that you are going to embrace. So I have to leave you to your confused Catholic veiw. There is no one so blind as him who will not see.

Our Lord said to Pilate (John 19:11): ‘He that hath delivered me to thee, hath the greater sin,’ and yet it is evident that Pilate was guilty of some sin. Therefore one sin is greater than another.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Are the 2 types of sin “sins that lead to death” and “sins that do not lead to death”?

I think I explained my position quite clearly in post #240

 

[PRmerger]

I think I explained my position quite clearly in post #240

Ah, well then from what I understood from Post #240 your position is quite Catholic!

You just object to the terms “mortal” and “venial”. You can call the 2 sins whatever you like, and we’ll continue to call them “mortal” and “venial”, but they mean the same thing.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Our Lord said to Pilate (John 19:11): ‘He that hath delivered me to thee, hath the greater sin,’ and yet it is evident that Pilate was guilty of some sin. Therefore one sin is greater than another.

I don’t expect to see either Pilate or Caiaphas in heaven. If they are not there it is because they have not repented and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. You’re not saying that one of these comitted a venial sin are you?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Ah, well then from what I understood from Post #240 your position is quite Catholic!

You just object to the terms “mortal” and “venial”. You can call the 2 sins whatever you like, and we’ll continue to call them “mortal” and “venial”, but they mean the same thing.

I guess you didn’t understand what I said. But I just don’t know how to make it any clearer.

God bless

 

[PRmerger]

I guess you didn’t understand what I said. But I just don’t know how to make it any clearer.

God bless

There’s no shame in being in agreement with the Catholic Church, Richard!

Mortal…venial…whatever the phraseology–we agree that there’s 2 different “types” of sins. Some serious, some not so.

 

[SHW]

Yelling at your chidren as a means of disciplining your children is not a sin unless it violates the law of love and then it becomes sin that if unrepented of will lead to loss of eternal life. There is no such thing as venial sin.

We will have to agree to disagree.

This doesn’t even make a little sense
Ezekiel 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This is speaking of personal sins, not Adam’s sin which lost eternal life for all of us. This was a special test in the Garden of Eden and he failed it and lost his place in Eden and brought death into the world and we now are all subject to sharing his “loss.” The “good news” is that Jesus makes it possible, by His Sacrifice on Calvary, for us to receive new resurrected, incorruptible, immortal bodies at His Second Coming despite Adam having lost eternal life for us. Adam’s sin made us enemies of God. Jesus restores our relationship to God through Baptism and we become adopted children of God…

Romans 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Doesn’t say anything here about Adam’s sin

Romans 5:18-19
Therefore, as** through one man’s (Adam’s)** offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Read the whole chapter Romans 5.

No sin is removed by anything man does. I thought you were a Christian. Christians beleive that we are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

Of course we are redeemed by the Blood of Christ, but we are still responsible to atone for our own personal sins. We must do works worthy of repentance. (Acts 26:20, Matthew 3:8)

There would be no need for us to cover a multitude of sins if Jesus covered it “all” for us. Common sense reasoning.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

This is all baloney. I think we’re through here. you keep throwing out the same nonsense. I don’t think we need to keep going around in circles. I will pray the Holy Spirit opens your mind to the truth.

Truth is hard to stomach for many persons; this is why they are called Protestants; because they “protest” against Christ’s Catholic Church’s teachings. These persons prefer to be their own individual “popes” instead of being subject to the legitimate successors of the Apostles.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

The Church is hierarchical in nature whether you like it or not. His one, holy, catholic/universal and apostolic Church speaks for Him on earth. It will remain so until Jesus returns.

 

[SHW]

I didn’t say that EVERYTHING is included in Scripture. I am eluding to the teachings that are included in Scripture and can be used for teaching, rebuking etc. Oh wow, look at that. I just quoted Scripture and didn’t even really mean to do it. See how that works?

And your point is?

I believe you stated, “If you wouldn’t have read that in Scripture, how would you ever know that the Church is the pillar of truth?”

My answer was, “Christ’s Church has also taught us this by her oral teaching.”

And, yes, Scripture is very helpful for me to show this:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word (oral preaching) or our epistle (written letter).

Scripture is also very helpful for me to show that all persons are to be subject to those who rule over them in the Church:

Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

2 Corinthians 13:10
Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.

Titus 2:15
Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Yes, indeed, Scripture is very profitable (helpful). (2 Timothy 3:16)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

There’s no shame in being in agreement with the Catholic Church, Richard!

Mortal…venial…whatever the phraseology–we agree that there’s 2 different “types” of sins. Some serious, some not so.

See, that’s just it. All sin is serious there is no sin that is “not so”. All sin will keep us from the presence of God through Christ, unless it is repented of.

Let’s take a look at 1Jn 5:16-17 again. 16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. You will notice in v. 16 John is talking about intercessory prayer. He mentions it twice in that v. The first time he mentions it, he says there is a sin that is not unto death and we should pray to God for that person and God will give him life. Ok, we got that one. Now he says there is a sin that is unto death and we are not even to pray for the brother that commits this sin. Right? Ok, let me ask you. Does the CC teach that you should not pray for brothers that commit mortal sin? I certainly hope not. So, this sin probably is not the sin that the CC would call mortal. Ok, what is it then. It is my contention that this sin is the unpardonable sin. The unpardonable sin is any sin for which no pardon is asked and if no pardon is asked none will be given. John is here talking of a truely lost soul.