Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[placido]

In addition to my post #50 (above), we have to ask the question, “If Jesus is already GOD before becoming the Son of Man, can Mary be the mother of God?”

I suppose it depends on how He became “the Son of Man”. If He became “the Son of Man” while remaining God, and He became “the Son of Man” by being born of Mary, then Mary is His mother. If Mary’s Son is God, Mary is Mother of God.

placido

 

[dyluck]

1. The issue of prayer to those in the Church Triumphant is a different matter. Scripture is clear that they pray for us the Church Militant in a general way. The only question is whether or not they can hear our personal requests for intercession.

The question isn’t “can they hear you” as passages indicate that this is a very high possibility being it that they are part of the heavenly host or not; however, the question is, is it wrong to beckon to them. Circumvent what Christ has instituted in himself.

as well as the fact that the practice predates the schism by hundreds of years.

Jon, practices are just that… a human action. Look at the churches Paul was exorting. Their practices were whacked and unbiblical and he rebuked them. What makes us think that our practices that are not biblical are something we should hold onto as if it was the word of God?

BTW, Jesus did exactly this.

Prove it please

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill is not bound to provide Scriptural support because he does not claim Scripture as justification for all his beliefs. You do make that claim, so you need to back up what you say with Scripture in order to be consistent.

This trolling is tiresome. Does anyone have anything new or meaningful to say?

You are right about one thing your trolling is tirsome,can you please stop and prove that Cathloic worship Mary,you made the statement now prove it,if you can.

*Mary gave birth to the human nature of Jesus only.
Mothers do not give birth to natures alone, but to persons who possess a nature. Mary gave birth to the complete person. Now, is Jesus Christ a divine person, or is he a human person?
He could not be both, as that would make Him to be two persons.

*Mary could not be the Mother of GOD.
Well, because you made this statement, you now have only two options. Either Jesus Christ is not GOD, or He had another mother other than Mary. Which option will you choose?

 

[Eleve]

Have you ever been told to obey your parents in heaven? No because they are no longer your parents in heaven. We obey, glorify and seek God in heaven.

Quite a surreal argument. I’ve never been told to obey my parents in heaven primarily because I’ve never been to heaven. But it’s irrelevant, really, because Mary is not the earthly mother of anyone other than Jesus.

Yes, Mary did bare Christ. I am not denying the divinity of Christ; however, Mary is not the mother of God almighty. Do you understand? God has no supernatural mother.

Nobody is claiming this. The title Mother of God (Θεοτόκος) is an honorific with primarily Christological, rather than Mariological, significance. The only people people trying to turn that title — firmly established by reasoning from Scriputes 1500 years ago — into a deification of Mary are Protestants who are reading too much into it.

however, the question is, is it wrong to beckon to them. Circumvent what Christ has instituted in himself.

How does this circumvent what Christ has instituted?

Jon, practices are just that… a human action. Look at the churches Paul was exorting. Their practices were whacked and unbiblical and he rebuked them. What makes us think that our practices that are not biblical are something we should hold onto as if it was the word of God?

Unbiblical?



Paul’s epistles were among the first books of the New Testament written! What part of the (yet-nonexistent) Bible could they possibly have been violating?

Prove it please

Transfiguration of Jesus. All three Synoptic Gospels. Chapters and verses (and links) readily available on Wikipedia.

 

[Eleve]

You are right about one thing your trolling is tirsome,can you please stop and prove that Cathloic worship Mary,you made the statement now prove it,if you can.

I never made that statement. I’m not who you think I am. If you actually read my posts in this thread, you’ll find that I have consistently been on your side of this debate. I was also not referring to you when I spoke of trolling.

 

[placido]

Yes, Mary did bare Christ. I am not denying the divinity of Christ; however, Mary is not the mother of God almighty. .

Yes, Mary gave birth to Jesus; yes, Mary is mother of Jesus; yes, Jesus is God … but the mother of Jesus Who is God, is not mother of God … a confusing theology indeed!

Do you understand? God has no supernatural mother.

Nobody did ever claim God has a supernatural mother.

Jesus, the Word of God, had an earthly mother. Jesus indeed has 1 heavenly father whom is God and 1 earthly father Joseph whom is now his brother. Jesus is part of the divine trinity -Father, Son and Holy Sprit. Not the divine trinity +1- Father, Son, Holy Spirit and blessed Mary, mother of God.

Catholics believe in (and indeed defined) the Holy Trinity (three divine persons, One God). Adding Mary equals four divine persons and Catholics don’t do that. All what that shows is that you don’t understand Catholicism at all.

placido

 

[JonNC]

=dyluck;5383628]The question isn’t “can they hear you” as passages indicate that this is a very high possibility being it that they are part of the heavenly host or not; however, the question is, is it wrong to beckon to them. Circumvent what Christ has instituted in himself.

If you say that it is a possibility that they can hear us, then they are not dead, but alive in the Church Triumphant. If we then can beckon (I would rather say make requests for prayers) the living members of the communion of saints on earth, why not the living members of the communion of saints in heaven?

Jon, practices are just that… a human action. Look at the churches Paul was exorting. Their practices were whacked and unbiblical and he rebuked them. What makes us think that our practices that are not biblical are something we should hold onto as if it was the word of God?

1500 years of practice, both east and west, whacked? How are these practices contradicted by scripture, if what you say above is true?

Prove it please

Sure. Did he not call Lazarus out of the dead, out of the tomb?

Jon

PS Listen to me, I sound like a Catholic. :whacky: Your arguments are more convincing to me that they (Catholics and Orthodox) might be right than their’s are.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sure. Did he not call Lazarus out of the dead, out of the tomb?

Jon

PS Listen to me, I sound like a Catholic. :whacky: Your arguments are more convincing to me that they (Catholics and Orthodox) might be right than their’s are.

Gabriel of 12;
Lol, lol… true Lutherans come from Catholicity. That Lazarous example truly confirms Jesus statement “he is sleeping” The God we serve is the True God of the living not the dead.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mary was Jesus’ mother; however, in heaven there is never any family reference other then siblings. Sister and Brother. We will be the siblings of King Jesus and co-heirs to the throne. Mary is Jesus’ sister in heaven. Same being my earthly father and mother (if they indeed are saved) are my brother and sister. That is biblical
Have you ever been told to obey your parents in heaven? No because they are no longer your parents in heaven. We obey, glorify and seek God in heaven.

Yes, Mary did bare Christ. I am not denying the divinity of Christ; however, Mary is not the mother of God almighty. Do you understand? God has no supernatural mother. Jesus, the Word of God, had an earthly mother. Jesus indeed has 1 heavenly father whom is God and 1 earthly father Joseph whom is now his brother. Jesus is part of the divine trinity -Father, Son and Holy Sprit. Not the divine trinity +1- Father, Son, Holy Spirit and blessed Mary, mother of God.

Gabriel of 12;
I guess we can say we clarified that Catholics believe Jesus is our one mediator and advocate between our humanity and Abba Father in heaven.

We can also say we agree that Mary is not the mother of the creator “God” but is the mother of God incarnate.

Now we are discussing Mary’s obedience to the Word of God to bring us her Son (Emmanuel) as one cooperating with the will of God. Thus co-mediatrix. You agree that Jesus was born from the flesh of Mary. Catholics give this Gospel a name to define Mary’s will in obedience to God’s will "co-mediatrix. She also took Jesus to the temple to fulfill the prescriptions of the Law, "co-mediatrix.

Mary points the disciples always to Jesus, and from her last words from the Gospel she tells us “Do whatever he tells you”.

Revelations reveals the Word of God in heaven revealing to eternity how God was going to fulfill this great mystery of saving humanity and making Jews and Gentiles one. God revealed to the heavens and angels Rev.12:1… A Woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars, she was with child.

Sounds like a Mother in heaven to me with child? Here is Rev. 12 17…“the rest of her offspring are those who keep Gods commandments and bear witness to Jesus”

Sounds like a Mother in heaven to me who have offspring; Remember Revelations speaks from eternity, there is no time in eternity.

This Mother who gives offspring are those who obey Jesus as Mary calls our humanity to do from scripture John 3:5.

A body (offspring) without a Mother to give birth too, is like a demon with no knees, who has no will or capability to worship the One True God.

 

[JonNC]

Gabriel of 12;
Lol, lol… true Lutherans come from Catholicity. That Lazarous example truly confirms Jesus statement “he is sleeping” The God we serve is the True God of the living not the dead.

Perhaps the first misunderstanding of some of us n-CC’s is that we think you are seeking the living amongst the dead.

Therefore, the only issues that remain (for me) on the question of intercessory prayer of saints are:

1. Are they capable of hearing us?
   Lutherans will say no, but Luke 15:7 bothers me in that regard:
   “…there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents…”
2. Is scripture specific enough - even the d-c books - to bind a believer’s conscience that he must believe that they can hear our requests and respond?

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Perhaps the first misunderstanding of some of us n-CC’s is that we think you are seeking the living amongst the dead.

Therefore, the only issues that remain (for me) on the question of intercessory prayer of saints are:

1. Are they capable of hearing us?
   Lutherans will say no, but Luke 15:7 bothers me in that regard:
   “…there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents…”
2. Is scripture specific enough - even the d-c books - to bind a believer’s conscience that he must believe that they can hear our requests and respond?

Jon

Gabriel of 12;

In the Mass which is the participation with angels in festal gatherings from the book of Revelations that when we pray on earth (Mass intentions) as it is in heaven we see our prayers joining with the Holy ones in heaven in the same liturgy;
Revelations 8:4… with the prayers of the holy ones… This is where God is present with all the living including the 144000 and the multitude revealed in chapter 7.

Much more to discuss have to run.

God bless you

 

[SHW]

I find it humourous, that all Christians are aware of and believe in, the story of Christ, but find differences in how to logically explain it. We all like nice, neat little boxes that we can label, and put things into. Mary doesn’t quite fit so well.

Jesus began as “The Son of God” (“Lord of Hosts”). We are taught, that if we are found worthy until the end, we will become sons/daughters of God (equal unto the angels). Jesus, as Son of Man, proved that this is possible. He started as a Son of God (begotten), and again became a son of God, by proving His worthiness to the end, in human flesh. After His death and resurrection, He returned to His original glory, as Lord of Hosts, and now, also as Lamb of God. Mary is the mother of The Lamb. Does this qualify Mary, as being the mother of God? There will always be differences of opinion on this matter. Some could argue, that by being found worthy until the end, the Son of Man became ‘equal unto the angels’ (below God), but because the Son of Man is also the Lord of Hosts (part of God), that Mary could in fact be called the mother of God.

Jesus (in His human nature only) was made a little lower than the angels. His divine nature never changed when He took on His human nature. He always was God and always will be God. He is now both God and Man for eternity.

 

[jimmy]

The question isn’t “can they hear you” as passages indicate that this is a very high possibility being it that they are part of the heavenly host or not; however, the question is, is it wrong to beckon to them. Circumvent what Christ has instituted in himself.

There is no point in scripture that says that we should not pray to the saints. There is no point in scripture that restricts prayer to Christ or to God. There is no place in scripture that defines prayer as worship. The fact is that you have no problem with asking one Christian to pray for you. If you have no problem with this then you should have no problem with Christians who are living on this earth asking those who are in heaven to pray for them. In no way does it circumvent Christ, otherwise Paul wouldn’t have prayed for others and he wouldn’t have asked for their prayers.

It seems to me to be a ‘spirit of division’ to be divisive about everything whether it contradicts scripture or not. We should atleast be willing to unite and not curse eachother if what we are doing is not anti-scriptural.

Jon, practices are just that… a human action. Look at the churches Paul was exorting. Their practices were whacked and unbiblical and he rebuked them. What makes us think that our practices that are not biblical are something we should hold onto as if it was the word of God?

Prove it please

It is a matter of theological perspective. We as Catholics believe that those in heaven are no less a part of the Church. As a part of the Church they can pray for us. If they are alive in Christ why shouldn’t we speak with them like we would speak with any of the saints on earth?

 

[jimmy]

Yes, Mary did bare Christ. I am not denying the divinity of Christ; however, Mary is not the mother of God almighty. Do you understand? God has no supernatural mother. Jesus, the Word of God, had an earthly mother. Jesus indeed has 1 heavenly father whom is God and 1 earthly father Joseph whom is now his brother. Jesus is part of the divine trinity -Father, Son and Holy Sprit. Not the divine trinity +1- Father, Son, Holy Spirit and blessed Mary, mother of God.

Did Mary give birth to God or not? If she gave concieved God (in his humanity) in her womb and gave birth to Him then she is the mother of God. No one has ever claimed that God has a spiritual mother or that Mary is the mother of the divine nature. What is being claimed is that Mary is the mother of a divine person through the economic plan of the Father. Through the Father’s economy the Son was made incarnate through the virgin Mary and was made man.

 

[SHW]

True, because sanctification is a process too.
But Justification is not. We are justified trough Christ and Christ alone. He, through giving His life for us, is our Justification.

All graces originate from God. After He justifies and sanctifies me through Baptism (which applies the merits of His Blood Sacrifice on the cross to my soul), I continue to be justified by cooperating with the graces given to me at my Baptism by obeying God’s commandments and doing good works.

But, if after my justification I instead choose to disobey His commandments and refuse to do good works, then I will lose my justification by these free will choices that I have made and I will no longer be saved unless I repent and confess before my death.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only (alone).”

 

[SHW]

Did Mary give birth to God or not? If she gave concieved God (in his humanity) in her womb and gave birth to Him then she is the mother of God. No one has ever claimed that God has a spiritual mother or that Mary is the mother of the divine nature. What is being claimed is that Mary is the mother of a divine person through the economic plan of the Father. Through the Father’s economy the Son was made incarnate through the virgin Mary and was made man.

Mary is not the mother of God the Father and she is not the mother of God the Holy Spirit and she is not the mother of God the Son in His divine nature which existed before she was born.

She is the mother of God the Son in His human nature only. But, since Jesus is God and Jesus is only one person (but with two natures, divine and human) that makes her the mother of God. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

 

[jimmy]

Mary is not the mother of God the Father and she is not the mother of God the Holy Spirit and she is not the mother of God the Son in His divine nature which existed before she was born.

She is the mother of God the Son in His human nature only. But, since Jesus is God and Jesus is only one person (but with two natures, divine and human) that makes her the mother of God. Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

I am not sure whether you are correcting me or not.

Of course Mary is not the mother of divinity. I have asserted that in several of my posts on this thread. I agree with what you say as long as you realize that it is a divine person that she is the mother of, not a nature. The Second person of the Trinity became man and assumed our nature. Mary is the mother of the Son economically because He was made man through her.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Did Mary give birth to God or not? If she gave concieved God (in his humanity) in her womb and gave birth to Him then she is the mother of God. No one has ever claimed that God has a spiritual mother or that Mary is the mother of the divine nature. What is being claimed is that Mary is the mother of a divine person through the economic plan of the Father. Through the Father’s economy the Son was made incarnate through the virgin Mary and was made man.

If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, such a one is a stranger to the Godhead." - St. Gregory Nazianzen (390 A.D.)

 

[BRB1]

So you are making the claim that she is your mediator. Enough said.

She might well be my/your mediator. She has chosen to serve Christ in any way he might chose.

Luke 1:38 “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

 

[placido]

This argument about whether Mary was mother of Jesus (Who is God) or mother of God, sounds ALMOST (yes, almost) like an argument between two boys about their grade school teacher, Mr. Paul McJohn’s mother. The one boy says Mrs. McJohn is “our teacher’s mother”, but the other boy would have none of that. “No, she is the mother of Mr. Paul McJohn - a teacher has no mother because one is not born a teacher.”

placido