"Jesus IS God!"?

[look3467]

We could make all kinds of determinations concerning certain definition of words here or there, but the fact still remains, that only God can forgive sins.

Therefore, if eternal separation (meaning death to the soul) was not of our doing, than it must be of God’s doing.

And if then it is not of our doing, than God alone must be the remedy for our salvation.

The center of the whole bible is God’s salvation in the name of Yashua.

Ya meaning Father and shua meaning God’s salvation.

Jesus, Yashua: is God saving the world.

I am a Christian believer in Jesus and once believed that only Christians were going to make it to heaven.

But, Muslims as well are going to make it because God in Jesus paid the price for every soul.
Ref: Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

If God alone is our salvation, than Jesus, the second Adam, the new creation, begetting new creatures in spirit via the salvation of God.

If a Muslim, be a Muslim still, but live a righteous life, for who knows why you were born a Muslim and not a Christian or a Jew.

Had you a choice, which one would you pick?

Ah, but of course, had we a choice we would have picked the easy one, for all are destined to struggle for the experience.

The point! That we should learn in the experience how to love one another as He loves us.

If then, we exercise that love, one for another, we shall have complied with God’s requirements while God Himself furnished the perfect righteouness necessary for all of us to make it to heaven.

Blessings, AJ

 

[heiscominginthe]

If a Muslim, be a Muslim still, but live a righteous life, for who knows why you were born a Muslim and not a Christian or a Jew.

If a muslim accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, he will be saved, but he won’t be a muslim any longer. He will be a christian.

And not one man can be righteous enough to keep himself from hell. That is why God sent his son.

So if a muslim is not born again, he will go to hell.

 

[look3467]

If a muslim accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, he will be saved, but he won’t be a muslim any longer. He will be a christian.

And not one man can be righteous enough to keep himself from hell. That is why God sent his son.

So if a muslim is not born again, he will go to hell.

OK…lets take your first point quote “If a Muslim accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, he will be saved, but he won’t be a Muslim any longer”.

True, anybody who believes, accepts Jesus as his or her Savior shall be saved and will be addressed as a Christian, no if’s and but’s about it.

What if a Muslim lived and died a Muslim, what then is your judgment? Was he saved or not?

Your second point “And not one man can be righteous enough to keep himself from hell” is the reason why Jesus came in the first place.

It is God’s righteousness that is given to us for our own righteousness by which now we have access to heaven.

Ref: Amo 5:7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth, Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

My reference to one’s own righteousness is strictly for earthly judgment, as in, sowing what we reap.

But the righteousness that saves the soul is God’s and not ours.

That being the case, we could try to be more righteous than our neighbor but to no eternal avail.

Are we seeing the difference?

Blessings, AJ

 

[planten]

Simply put, Jesus was either:

1. The Son of God and the Savior of mankind.
2. A liar.

Matthew 16:18-20, Jesus commends Simon Peter for calling him the Son of God.
John 14:6, Jesus says that He is the only way to the Father.
John 15:6, Jesus says whoever does not abide in Him will be thrown away.

Accept these, and you must accept that Jesus is the Messiah. If you say he was not the Messiah, then you can neither call him a great man or prophet of God. Make your choice.

**CWBetts, We believe in John 14,6 and John 15,6. He says he is the way. Okay, True. Doe sit mean he is god? Not at all.

John 15,6: Jesus says whoever does not abide in Him will be thrown away. Okay, but who is Him? Is it Jesus or THE GOD? That verse also does not say specifically that Jesus is god. So, please bring something better. Jesus being a Jew could never utter anything that he was God.

You are giving me just two choices , accept Jesus as God or accept that Jesus is a Liar. I reject both of of your suggestions. Please know that the choices given by you are not mutually exclusive. There can always be a third choice too.

I can rebutt your statement by just a few words as follows:

Jesus never said that he was God. So as we Muslims believe, he was not a Liar.

It is the church who is teaching something awkward and we do not believe that church is right. Jesus is right and True. He is not a Liar. he never claimed divinity. he never told any one to worship him. His mother never worshipped him.

And his disciples never worshipped him. They followed him around and praised him. that is all.**

 

[look3467]

Jesus could not take any credit if He was to be true God.
There is none other God but God, therefore, Jesus though God could not in the flesh take credit, for after all, that’s what Adam problem was.

No flesh, though in the image of God, are gods unto themselves but separate from God only by death.

The only way we as gods can exist with God is not to be separate but united with God as one,
Jesus prayed:Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
That is why Jesus said, I am the way the truth and no man can come to the Father except by me.Every living soul is a god,
as a result of free will.Blessings, AJ

 

[Steven_John]

nor does it discuss the use of heroin, cocaine or smoking a joint.

Does this mean it is was enters us that will make us bad? LOL

 

[heiscominginthe]

I am not quite sure I understand you completely AJ.

Now, we agree that without God’s righteousness through his Son, no man could be saved.

Yet, there is still the problem with a muslim being righteous enough and the answer is no. Yet, that no comes with a condition. If the muslim has heard the gospel, and refuses to accept it, he will go to hell.

Now, if a muslim were to have never known about the Son of God and lived a righteous life, then I most certainly believe he has a very good chance that he will be saved.

 

[MarysGirls]

CWBetts, We believe in John 14,6 and John 15,6. He says he is the way. Okay, True. Doe sit mean he is god? Not at all. He also said He is the Life. Who else but God could be that?

John 15,6: Jesus says whoever does not abide in Him will be thrown away. Okay, but who is Him? Is it Jesus or THE GOD? That verse also does not say specifically that Jesus is god. So, please bring something better. Jesus being a Jew could never utter anything that he was God. Don’t know about your translation, but my Bible says “If a man does not abide in ME” (emphasis mine)

You are giving me just two choices , accept Jesus as God or accept that Jesus is a Liar. I reject both of of your suggestions. Please know that the choices given by you are not mutually exclusive. There can always be a third choice too. Such as?

I can rebutt your statement by just a few words as follows:

Jesus never said that he was God. So as we Muslims believe, he was not a Liar. Yeah, I don’t believe He was lying either. But let me ask you this: if the reason Jesus was crucified was because He claimed to be God, why did He not defend Himself and point the Pharisees to the one, true God? Instead He let them believe in a “lie”.

It is the church who is teaching something awkward and we do not believe that church is right. Jesus is right and True. He is not a Liar. he never claimed divinity. he never told any one to worship him. His mother never worshipped him. How do you know? You really didn’t strike me as that old.

And his disciples never worshipped him. They followed him around and praised him. that is all. John 1:29, John 1:36, John 1:41, John 1:49, John 4:42, John 5:23, John 6:40, John 6:51, John 8:12, John 8:58 (that’s a big one, cause Jesus claimed “I AM” which was the name the Lord went by at the time.

 

[piltdown_man]

Jesus never said that he was God. So as we Muslims believe, he was not a Liar. Yeah, I don’t believe He was lying either. But let me ask you this: if the reason Jesus was crucified was because He claimed to be God, why did He not defend Himself and point the Pharisees to the one, true God? Instead He let them believe in a “lie”.

Yes, Jesus did in fact say He is God. Like I said before, if you don’t trust the veracity of the New Testament than these passages won’t mean much to you. And if you think the Gospels were tampered with, or have been replaced, than this post won’t matter a bit. But Jesus says in John 8:58 (NIV):

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!”

Now, this doesn’t mean much by itself, but when you compare it to this account in the book of Exodus:

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them? God said to Moses, "I Am who I Am.” This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you (Exodus 3:13-14 NIV).’ "

I think that these passages have been mentioned in this thread before. But clearly, when Jesus proclaims Himself as “I AM” to a crowd of Pharisees who are knowledgeable of Scripture, He is without a doubt claiming to be God. That is why He is almost stoned in the following passage:
“At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds (John 8:59 NIV).”

Peace

 

[MarysGirls]

Jesus never said that he was God. So as we Muslims believe, he was not a Liar. Yeah, I don’t believe He was lying either. But let me ask you this: if the reason Jesus was crucified was because He claimed to be God, why did He not defend Himself and point the Pharisees to the one, true God? Instead He let them believe in a “lie”.

Yes, Jesus did in fact say He is God. Like I said before, if you don’t trust the veracity of the New Testament than these passages won’t mean much to you. And if you think the Gospels were tampered with, or have been replaced, than this post won’t matter a bit. But Jesus says in John 8:58 (NIV):

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!”

Now, this doesn’t mean much by itself, but when you compare it to this account in the book of Exodus:

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them? God said to Moses, "I Am who I Am.” This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you (Exodus 3:13-14 NIV).’ "

I think that these passages have been mentioned in this thread before. But clearly, when Jesus proclaims Himself as “I AM” to a crowd of Pharisees who are knowledgeable of Scripture, He is without a doubt claiming to be God. That is why He is almost stoned in the following passage:
“At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds (John 8:59 NIV).”

Peace

Exactly! Thank you; I would have said all that myself, but my mom was putting supper on the table.

 

[look3467]

I am not quite sure I understand you completely AJ.

Now, we agree that without God’s righteousness through his Son, no man could be saved.

Yet, there is still the problem with a Muslim being righteous enough and the answer is no. Yet, that no comes with a condition. If the Muslim has heard the gospel, and refuses to accept it, he will go to hell.

Now, if a Muslim were to have never known about the Son of God and lived a righteous life, then I most certainly believe he has a very good chance that he will be saved.

Its very easy to understand if we separate Gods works from mankind’s.
Gods works were His creation of humanity which resulted in separation due to the ability to be like God in having intelligence.

Mankind had no say so in that matter, so God Himself has to initiated saving grace absolute, without any help from mankind.

Salvation as you know is a gift to the receiver as well as the non-receiver, otherwise, the gift would not be a gift but would be discriminative, based on mankind’s works and not God’s.

God understood in the creation of mankind that He would also have to save it, otherwise, His creation would be lost forever. Hence: God’s work.

Ref: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Mankind’s work? Is contained in two commandments. Love God and Neighbor.

Prior to Jesus time… was not the case, for then mankind’s work had to meet the requirements of the laws and subject to animal sacrifices for the covering of sins.

Since, Jesus became that sacrificial lamb for all mankind, causing mankind to cease from their works, or attempts at righteousness to gain salvation.

That is why there is the eight day, or resurrection day, or a new day of the new week of which there is no end, and we can find rest from those works which belonged to God.

Now, here it the beauty of the whole matter. What now is in Jesus is the freedom to do good works without the fear of not being good enough to gain salvation, but rather to rest, find peace with God and live with His support, guidance, and do good to our neighbor.

Can you now see somewhat of the liberty which Christ gives us?

Imagine, loving your enemies as though they are just as precious in Gods eyes for Him to command us to do so?

Imagine loving people in all religious beliefs, being kind, helpful and supportive of their good works one towards another?

These are the good works that we are responsible for, the ones which affect those around us.

Those, are the ones we should consider making good on.

Now, being that God unconditionally saves that which was lost (Mankind) only makes those who are different from us in beliefs, objects for our good works.

If a Muslim in kind reflects the same attitude, then there is an understanding of what God really is, and that is love.

But if not, then there is division.

Blessings, AJ

 

[planten]

Jesus never said that he was God. So as we Muslims believe, he was not a Liar. Yeah, I don’t believe He was lying either. But let me ask you this: if the reason Jesus was crucified was because He claimed to be God, why did He not defend Himself and point the Pharisees to the one, true God? Instead He let them believe in a “lie”.

**The Crucifixion was not due to Jesus calling himself God. The Jews were chasing Jesus for a long time before his arrest and Crucifixion. They were looking for some excuse, of tax matters or being the king of Jews etc. If Jesus had been claiming to be the God, then there was no need to look for any other excuse.

Every One knows why they wanted to kill Jesus. That was due to the heat they were feeling by the right perfect preaching of Jesus. The Pharisees were being exposed as evil giants sitting on the helm of the affairs. I need not explain any furhter**…

Yes, Jesus did in fact say He is God. Like I said before, if you don’t trust the veracity of the New Testament than these passages won’t mean much to you. And if you think the Gospels were tampered with, or have been replaced, than this post won’t matter a bit. But Jesus says in John 8:58 (NIV):

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!”

** No, Jesus never said that he was God. We do not find such clear statement in the bibleNT. If he said he was the way, it is true. But that does not mean that he was God. He was the way to reach God.

If he said “I am what I AM.” that also is a mixed sentence. If he said 'I AM" he fell short of one word which he should have uttered. “I AM GOD”. He just said “I AM”. What did it mean what he is? He did not say “I AM GOD”.**

Now, this doesn’t mean much by itself, but when you compare it to this account in the book of Exodus:

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them? God said to Moses, "I Am who I Am.” This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you (Exodus 3:13-14 NIV).’ "

**This matter is covered in my above paras. There is another problem. They say, John 8:58. Jesus said “Before Abraham was born, I AM.”

That is another problem. As I had read it before, it was like this “Before Abarahm, I AM.” Now we see “Before Abraham was born…” Daily changes are being made in bible to improve it and to remove any truth that may be in it.
**.

I think that these passages have been mentioned in this thread before. But clearly, when Jesus proclaims Himself as “I AM” to a crowd of Pharisees who are knowledgeable of Scripture, He is without a doubt claiming to be God. That is why He is almost stoned in the following passage:
“At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds (John 8:59 NIV).”

Peace

The Jews should have stoned Jesus for blasphemy. That was the punishment for blasphemy in the Jewish law. But the Jews were crying hoarse to Crucify Jesus. Why was that?? It was to prove that he was a false prophet. That is all. Please understand.

 

[look3467]

Understanding why Jesus as God had to be crucified can be understood only by knowing the design of God’s creating mankind.

Mankind was created in God’s image, as a consequence: death.(thus flawed)

For God to save His creation, He had to provide the perfect man, sacrifice Him for the salvation of all mankind.

By this sacrifice, which is the only one for all mankind, becomes the vehicle, the way, the path and the truth by which all mankind can know and understand who God is.

If we can not see Jesus as God saving His own creation, then, we are blind and in need of being visited by Him via His Holy Spirit to open up our spiritual eyes.

A true Muslim, one born into the Muslim beliefs is not one born into it by choice nor is a Jew or a Christian.

Te harmony that should exist between the three is in the spirit of love, Godly type love.

Where it that God wanted only the Jews via Issac verses Ishmael to be the only ones to be saved, He would have never included the Gentiles.

Ref: Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Jews and Gentiles (All non Jews) are now as one in Christ.
Ref: Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So, tell me, who of all of us is favored more in the process of Salvation?

Be careful on the answer for in it you may find yourself, in God’s place, judging mankind, for salvation purposes.

Blessings, AJ

 

[heiscominginthe]

If a Muslim in kind reflects the same attitude, then there is an understanding of what God really is, and that is love.

AJ, I still don’t understand your hangup on muslims. Do not muslims have a different faith unless they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and are saved/born again?

As for the rest when you speak of works, there are no acceptable works outside of Christ. I am not disagreeing with you on works, but commending you. YOU said it beautifully.

Well done by christian brother.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Where it that God wanted only the Jews via Issac verses Ishmael to be the only ones to be saved, He would have never included the Gentiles.

All men will stand before the judgement seat of God. Jews, muslims, and gentiles will all give account to how they lived their lives on earth.

For the man who did not know God and died, jews, muslims, gentiles, he is judged according to if he lived a righteous life on earth.

So when he dies, he will have to do as Romans 10;9-10. God will have already judged him on if he was a righteous man or not, and if found righteous, he will have to make confession unto salvation, just as those who were held in upper hell had to do when Jesus came and set them free.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Quote:
Yes, Jesus did in fact say He is God. Like I said before, if you don’t trust the veracity of the New Testament than these passages won’t mean much to you. And if you think the Gospels were tampered with, or have been replaced, than this post won’t matter a bit. But Jesus says in John 8:58 (NIV):

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!”

No, Jesus never said that he was God. We do not find such clear statement in the bibleNT. If he said he was the way, it is true. But that does not mean that he was God. He was the way to reach God.

If he said “I am what I AM.” that also is a mixed sentence. If he said 'I AM" he fell short of one word which he should have uttered. “I AM GOD”. He just said “I AM”. What did it mean what he is? He did not say “I AM GOD”.

Certainly when Jesus said I AM he was saying he was God. Why do you think the pharacees and seducess were so upset with him?

 

[look3467]

AJ, I still don’t understand your hangup on muslims. Do not muslims have a different faith unless they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and are saved/born again?

As for the rest when you speak of works, there are no acceptable works outside of Christ. I am not disagreeing with you on works, but commending you. YOU said it beautifully.

Well done by christian brother.

I am not hung up on Muslims alone, but because he is here commenting, I am addressing them.
I am aware of others here that also apply to them.

It is a foolish thing to mankind to believe that Jesus would even bother to die for the ungodly person, hence the righteousness of some.
Mankind’s reasoning: Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Righteous or good, many would hesitate to die for, let alone an unrighteous man.

But not Jesus, He was the full embodiment of the unconditional love that is God.

Ref: Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

If “all” die, then “all” will be made alive, the question is when.

The underling concern of God is for us through adversity find His strength to deal with it to our benefit of spiritual maturity.

Spiritual immaturity is to claim that whatever we believe is what God accepts, rather than to exercise the commandment to love one another unconditionally and allowing God to deal with their works.

Loving unconditionally does not mean we have to hide justice, but rather to live by principles that justice holds accountable those who would perform evil.

Were we not given rule over the earth? Then we must be good stewards of it both concerning the earth and human relationships.

Our goal is to live more abundantly as our spirit prospers in the things of God.

3Jo 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

All men will stand before the judgement seat of God. Jews, muslims, and gentiles will all give account to how they lived their lives on earth.

For the man who did not know God and died, jews, muslims, gentiles, he is judged according to if he lived a righteous life on earth.

So when he dies, he will have to do as Romans 10;9-10. God will have already judged him on if he was a righteous man or not, and if found righteous, he will have to make confession unto salvation, just as those who were held in upper hell had to do when Jesus came and set them free.

Let me give you my thoughts on the judgment seat.

Notice it says “judgment seat of Christ”? Whose seat? Christs, right?

Without Christ all mankind stood to be judged eternally, but God changed that judgment to Christ.
So Jesus sat on the judgment seat for us, in our place so that we may not be judged for the purpose of eternal life.

Having said that, we are held accountable for our actions while in the living in the flesh, and are judged by God daily.
If we are close to Him, in our walk and choose an unrighteous act to perform, than God deals directly with our conscience and causes us grief until we repent.

He guides, leads us so that we may not stumble, but when we do stumble, He is there to pick us up.

Blessings, AJ

 

[piltdown_man]

** No, Jesus never said that he was God. We do not find such clear statement in the bibleNT. If he said he was the way, it is true. But that does not mean that he was God. He was the way to reach God.

If he said “I am what I AM.” that also is a mixed sentence. If he said 'I AM" he fell short of one word which he should have uttered. “I AM GOD”. He just said “I AM”. What did it mean what he is? He did not say “I AM GOD”.**

Planten,

When Jesus calls Himself “I Am”, He is directly referring to the name which God commanded Moses to call Him (“I Am”) 1300 years before Jesus came to earth in the flesh.
Planten, I believe you are a smart man. Please, think about this a little. If Jesus just meant to say that He existed before Abraham, He would have said “before Abraham was born, I was.” Also, when Jesus said this, those present realized what He was saying and picked up stones to try to stone Him. If the statement that He made claiming to be “I Am” didn’t mean anything, then why was He almost stoned by the crowd after He uttered it? Whatever you want to believe is up to you, but trust me, Jesus is claiming to be God here.

Planten, I commend you for your stick-to-itiveness and nobly obdurate manner in defense of something that you believe, but please, the intention of this verse is as obvious as the sun in the sky. Ask any biblical scholar as to what Jesus is saying in this verse and that person will tell you that Jesus is claiming to be God. That is why the consensus of Muslim opinion states that the true New Testament is corrupt or lost. It is because the claims made by Jesus in the New Testament are so opposed to the anti-Trinitarian claims in the Quran, which incorrectly by the way, speak of the members of the Trinity as Father, Jesus, and Mary. I would start to think twice about an all knowing Allah that can make a mistake like this (Quran 5:116).

Peace

 

[MarysGirls]

**CWBetts, We believe in John 14,6 and John 15,6. He says he is the way. Okay, True. Doe sit mean he is god? Not at all.

John 15,6: Jesus says whoever does not abide in Him will be thrown away. Okay, but who is Him? Is it Jesus or THE GOD? That verse also does not say specifically that Jesus is god. So, please bring something better. Jesus being a Jew could never utter anything that he was God.

You are giving me just two choices , accept Jesus as God or accept that Jesus is a Liar. I reject both of of your suggestions. Please know that the choices given by you are not mutually exclusive. There can always be a third choice too.

I can rebutt your statement by just a few words as follows:

Jesus never said that he was God. So as we Muslims believe, he was not a Liar.

It is the church who is teaching something awkward and we do not believe that church is right. Jesus is right and True. He is not a Liar. he never claimed divinity. he never told any one to worship him. His mother never worshipped him.

And his disciples never worshipped him**. They followed him around and praised him. that is all.

This was in today’s Gospel reading: John 20:28, "Thomas answered Him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”