"Jesus IS God!"?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Hi, Frank4YAHWEH.

It seems to me that you continue to avoid the clear meaning and our arguments about the first chapter of John’s Gospel.

(I’m just restating what others in this thread have said)

We are told that a person called the “Word” was in the beginning.
The Word was with God
The Word was God
Then later, we’re told that the Word became flesh. The Word became flesh, the Word=God, God became flesh. Jesus IS God in the flesh.

Now, if you’ll address these arguments, I think we’ll finally get somewhere in this discussion Thanks!

For an excellent analysis of the Jewish Wisdom theology relating to the divinity of Christ, see this article tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html by Protestant apologist J.P. Holding.

God bless you on your journey searching for Christ’s identity!

Scripture does not teach “a person called the “Word” was in the beginning.” and “God became flesh. Jesus IS God in the flesh.”

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Oh, and as for the first chapters of the epistle to the Hebrews, check out 1:6-12. Each and every one of those Old Testament quotes were addressed to God in their original context. To apply these texts to Jesus would be total blasphemy!

…unless, that is, Jesus IS God.

Let’s take a look at these OT quotes:
“Let all God’s angels worship him.” Unfortunately, this quote is missing in Deut 32:43. It was only in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the LXX. But it WAS applied to God, and, saying angels should worship Jesus, would go against what Jesus commanded (and was commanded before in the OT) in Matthew 4:10, unless Jesus is God.

Now the second one:
“Thy throne, O God, will last forever and ever.” This is the Father addressing the Son. The Father calls Jesus God! What more evidence do you need?

And the third and most compelling:
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth…” The Father is still addressing the Son. It quotes Psalm 102:25, which talks about God. To show Christ’s divinity even more in the Hebrews text, the author adds “O Lord”.

God Bless.

The following is an excerpt from: MY XANGA BLOG.

Did Father Yahweh call His Son “God”?

Many will refer to Hebrews 1:8 in the A.K.J.V. and other versions that translate this passage in like manner and say “Yahweh (“Elohim, Adonai, God”) called Yahshua (“Yeshua, Jesus, Christ, Messiah”) God.” One must understand that translations are just that, translations, and not the original documents penned by the writers. To take it even further, they are not even direct translations of the originals. They are copies (made by scribes [copyist]) and translations of translations and revisions of translations of those copies. Many will build a doctrine out of this one single translation of a passage, and will rely only on this particular translation for their doctrine, ignoring all other translations and footnotes to these translations as to how this particular passage is translated. They also will ignore context of Scripture as a whole that are not in accordance with their “private interpretation”. I have had many a Christian go so far as to tell me “The King James Bible is the original Bible.” Well, if they would just read the title page of the K.J.V., they would soon find that they are wrong. On the title page of the K.J.V. it reads as follows:

“TRANSLATED OUT OF THE ORIGINAL TONGUES WITH FORMER TRANSLATIONS DILIGENTLY COMPARED AND REVISED”

This passage in Hebrews 1:8-9 is actually a quote from Psalms 45:6-7 . The K.J.V. reads as follows:

“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Verses five and seven are clear and plain; only verse six, as it reads in the K.J.V. is ambiguous. However, other versions clearly take away this ambiguity so that verse six agrees with other Scriptures: namely, there is only One true Mighty One (“Elohim, God, deity”). This one true Mighty One is Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:4; John 17:3; Ephesians 4:4). According to many scholars Psalm 45:6 reads “Thy throne O Judge” instead of “O God” which in Hebrew or Greek has the same meanings so that in Hebrew it also could mean Judge instead of a trinitarian translation of the word theos which is generic and has many meanings.

Now, let us consult the following versions:

Targum

Your beauty, O King Messiah, is more stunning than any mortal’s; your lips are endowed with the spirit of prophecy. Due to this the Lord has blessed you forever.

ArtScroll Tenakh Translation

Your throne, O judge, will exist forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

Moffatt Translation

“Your throne shall stand for evermore; for, since your sceptre is a sceptre just, since right you love and evil you abhor, so God, your God, crowns you with bliss above your fellow-kings” (Psalm 45:6-7). This would be Yahweh, Yahshua’s Mighty One. Yahshua has not crowned himself. Yahweh will crown him when the time is right (Matthew 25:31; Luke 1:32).

“He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever, …” (Hebrews 1:8, Moffatt). Someone else is the Mighty One (“Elohim, God, deity”), not Yahshua. Yahshua’s throne is Yahweh (“Elohim, God, deity”).

New English Bible

“Your throne is like God’s throne, eternal, your royal sceptre a sceptre of righteousness” (Psalm 45:6). Yahshua is not Yahweh (“Elohim, God, deity”). Instead, Yahshua’s throne is like Yahweh’s (“Elohim’s, God’s”) throne.

“God is thy throne for ever and ever, …” (Hebrews 1:8, Translator’s footnote, N.E.B.).

Good News Bible

“Thy kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever, …” (Psalm 45:6). In this case, the throne represents the kingdom.

“God is your kingdom …” (Hebrews 1:8, Translator’s footnote Good News Bible).

Continued

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Jewish Publication Society, O.T., 1916

“Thy throne given by God is for ever and ever, …” (Psalm 45:7). Yahshua is not declaired to be Yahweh (“Adonai, Elohim, God, deity”). Instead, Yahweh will give to Yahshua a throne which will last forever (Daniel 7:11-14; Luke 1:32; Revelation 3:21).

Isaac Leeser Translation

“Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever: the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore hath God, thy God anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy associates.”

The Bible in Living English

‘… but as to the Son “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of integrity is the scepter of his reign”.’

Revised Standard Version

“Your throne is a throne of God, …:” (Psalm 45:6, R.S.V. Translator’s footnote). The same notation is given in Hebrew 1:8, where this Scripture is quoted. This is true, because Yahshua is (at this time) sitting with the Father in the Father’s throne. (Hebrews 1:3). Later, he will sit on his own throne, just as he now sits with the Father in the Father’s throne (Revelation 3:21). A footnote in the New Revised Standard Version reads: ‘Or, God is your throne …’. A seperate footnote for the passage “… and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your …” (the footnote in reference to “your” reads: ‘other ancient authorities read his’.

American Standard Version

“Thy throne is the throne of God” (Margin: Psalm 45:6, A.S.V.).

Heinz W. Cassirer Version, N.T.

"… when referring to the Son he says, It is God who is your throne for ever and ever; and the sceptre showing forth the uprightness which you bear is the sceptre of God’s kingdom. You have love righteousness and hated lawlessness. And so it is that God, who is your God, has has anointed you with the oil of gladness, giving you a greater share of it than any of your fellows.

Still quoting:

“Then there are these words: You, Lord [meaning Yahweh, Psalm 102:25], laid the foundations of the earth when it first took its rise, and the heavens are the work of thy hands” (Hebrews 1:8-10; cf. Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Isaiah 43:10, 44:24, 45:12-18).

There is no support here for “two Yahwehs, pre-existent, co-creator” Yahshua. Father Yahweh really is the Creator. He did it all ALONE, with no help (Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 33:6-9).

For a free list of more than 100 Scriptures revealing who is the Creator. It was not Yahshua. Please ask for it at: halleluyah.org . Also available by E-MAILING THEM you can freely receive some 70+ studies that refute the “pre-existence of Yahshua, Holy Trinity, and two Yahwehs” doctrines.

End Notes:

Weymouth Version N.T. (Translator’s footnote, Hebrew 1:8).

Quote:

"8. O God] Psalm 45 is a Royal Marriage song, and this translation involves the direct address of an earthly king by the title ‘God.’ The obvious difficulty has led to various conjectures:

(1) ‘Thy throne is the throne of God’ (so R.V. margin in the Psalm).

(2) ‘Thy throne is God for ever and ever.’

(3) A corrupt Hebrew text, ‘Yahweh’ (God), being a mistake for the almost identical word meaning ‘shall be,’ - ‘Thy throne shall be for ever and ever,’ This conjecture is widely accepted, but the writer of the Epistle [to the Hebrews], in applying these words of the Psalm to the Son, would not feel the difficulty; ‘Thy throne, O God’ may stand." (Emphasis added).

Weymouth indicates the word Yahweh (God) does not actually appear in the original text. If this is true, then the word ‘O God’ should not be in the first clause of Psalm 45:6, but should read as #3 above:

“Thy throne shall be for ever and ever …” This is the way Moffatt reads in Psalm 45:6, noted above. The thought is, once Yahshua sits on his own throne (as heir to the throne of David), his rulership will endure forever. There is no support here for two Yahwehs, or for the pre-existence of Yahshua. It is a mistake to take an ambiuous verse in the King James Version and make it into a doctrine which opposes the cardinal principle of the Scriptures,

“Hear O Isryl: Yahweh our Mighty One is ONE YAHWEH” (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Gesenius Hebrew Grammer (Kautzsch-Cowley), 1949 reprint says, on page 415 paragraph (b): “In Psalm 45:7 chis-a-cha’ El-o-him’ (usually explained as thy divine throne). El-o-him’ is most probably a later addition [another suggestion is to read chEl-o-him’ like God('s throne: compare section 141 d, note].”

Please see MY WEB PAGE for more indepth information and studies on these false doctrines and for those who believe as I do.

 

[JJ59]

Scripture does not say it exactly as I worded it, no. You’re still avoiding the arguments, saying instead, “Scripture does not teach ___”. Let’s take a look at John 1:

(I’m using the Douay-Rheims Bible. Please tell me if you object to this translation.(

"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made."

Now, as to the Word being a person, scripture says “he” and “him” when referring to the Word. It’s rather odd for this to be used if the Word is not a person, isn’t it? Not unheard of, but odd. I’m not sure what you think the Word is. But a “concept” or a “symbol” or anything else people call the Word cannot create. (Or have creation come “through it”.) But this is hardly important. Check these next passages out:

There’s more description of the Word and other things, and then this:

"14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace.

17For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

We have established that the Word is God. If it says, “the Word was made flesh”, it means nothing else than “God was made flesh.” Only simple logic, Frank!

“His glory” Whose? Obviously the Word’s. “the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,” this is a title for Jesus, plain and simple! The Word’s glory is Christ’s glory. We therefore see that the Word is Jesus.

What John the Baptist said is what can only be said of Jesus. He talks like this about Christ in Matthew 4 as well, as someone greater who comes after him. John bears witness of “him”. Who is “him”? Again, the Word. So, the Word is Jesus.

“Of his fulness we have received, and grace for grace.” The Word gives us grace, and then it says that grace came by Jesus Christ. Once again, the Word is Jesus!

Now that we’ve dissected and thoroughly analyzed these verses, we see that the Word is Jesus Christ, and you can’t get around that.

Please address my arguments, and thanks for this very interesting theological discussion, Frank!

God Bless.

 

[Tonks40]

One of the problems you’re having, Frank, is that you’re using 21st century standards of the English language to 1st century Greek and Aramaic. Please do a little more research into translations (which many on this thread have a basic understanding of) and then we can discuss this on an even playing field.

 

[JJ59]

Excellent and detailed response with your views on the first Hebrews passage.

I’m no biblical scholar, so I’m afraid I’ll have to wait for someone else to address those arguments.

“Then there are these words: You, Lord [meaning Yahweh, Psalm 102:25], laid the foundations of the earth when it first took its rise, and the heavens are the work of thy hands” (Hebrews 1:8-10; cf. Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Isaiah 43:10, 44:24, 45:12-18).

There is no support here for “two Yahwehs, pre-existent, co-creator” Yahshua. Father Yahweh really is the Creator. He did it all ALONE, with no help (Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 33:6-9)."

Uh… yeah. Of course Yahweh did it alone. But if scripture says Jesus did it, we must conclude that Jesus is Yahweh. And we do not teach two Yahwehs. One Yahweh, in a divine mystery, somehow three equally eternal Persons. (that’s a brief description of an amazing and detailed doctrine, the Holy Trinity.)

It seems, though, like you’re looking for the entire doctrine of the Trinity to be present in every proof text. It’s not. We take all the proof texts, and conclude that. This is merely one of many, friend.

But why the easy dismissal of this verse? You did not address the argument at all, you simply stated that “there’s no support here”. Please tell me why the author would apply a verse originally applied to God to Jesus.

And please also talk about “Let all God’s angel’s worship him”.

Thanks, and God Bless.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gen.1:26
Then God said: **“Let us **make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

Tennis anyone?

 

[JonNC]

Gen.1:26
Then God said: **“Let us **make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

Tennis anyone?

I don’t know Gabriel. Seems your ace here is game, set, match.
Jon

 

[djconklin]

John 1:1-3

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

 

[JJ59]

Well, I guess I’ll talk about the Heb. 1 verses:

Yes, Psalm 45 can be different. But if there’s no textual evidence that the verse in Hebrews should not be “Thy Throne, O God”, then “Thy Throne, O God” it stays.

The author saw that the verse in Psalm 45 (In their day) said “Thy Throne, O God”. To show that Jesus is God, he applied the verse to Jesus. The author’s motive (If that’s the right word), to show that Jesus Christ is God, stays the same, no matter what Psalm 45 was supposed to say. It all depends on what the 1 century translation said. (Probably the LXX)

God Bless

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

But if scripture says Jesus did it, we must conclude that Jesus is Yahweh.

As you well know from my posts, I do not and must not conclude that Yahshua (the SON) is FATHER Yahweh. The so called “New Testament” teaches that Yahshua is Father Yahweh’s son. Yahshua proclaims that Yahweh is his Father and that he is His son. Father Yahweh proclaimed from heaven:

This is My beloved son, in whom I am well pleased ( 3:17).

No, Father Yahweh did not speak from heaven and say ‘This is I, and I am very well pleased with Myself.’

Yahshua proclaims that it is Father Yahweh Who is the creator of all things and not once does he ever proclaim that he created anything or was a co-creator with his (and our) Father Yahweh in the beginning or that he pre-existed his birth.

 

[JJ59]

Sorry, Frank, but that doesn’t help the discussion. The Father-Son relationship is part of the Trinity, and I’m sure you can find many trinity proof texts if you search around (There are many in this thread alone.)

But you still haven’t addressed my arguments. Please do so.

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Sorry, Frank, but that doesn’t help the discussion. The Father-Son relationship is part of the Trinity, and I’m sure you can find many trinity proof texts if you search around (There are many in this thread alone.)

But you still haven’t addressed my arguments. Please do so.

The Trinity doctrine is not any part of Scripture. The so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine is not taught in Scripture.

 

[JJ59]

If it’s not a part of scripture, please address the arguments I wrote and show us!

God Bless

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

If it’s not a part of scripture, please address the arguments I wrote and show us!

God Bless

You have yet to show me where in Scripture there is a so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine taught.

 

[JJ59]

See my posts about John 1 (How Jesus is the Word) and the passages in Hebrews, (Which you responded to, and I then refuted.) where verses about God are applied to Jesus.

Those are just a few places where the doctrine of the Trinity (Jesus’ divinity at least) are taught.

God Bless.

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

See my posts about John 1 (How Jesus is the Word) and the passages in Hebrews, (Which you responded to, and I then refuted.) where verses about God are applied to Jesus.

Those are just a few places where the doctrine of the Trinity (Jesus’ divinity at least) are taught.

God Bless.

Yes, I have seen your post about John 1. It does not say “… and the word was Jesus.” You have yet to show me where a so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine is taught in any translation of Scripture.

 

[djconklin]

You have yet to show me where in Scripture there is a so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine taught.

I’ve showed that the argument isn’t relevant.

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I’ve showed that the argument isn’t relevant.

Then stop arguing!

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

John 10:[30]** I and the Father are one." **

Here’s the real kicker:

John 17:[1] When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
[2] since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
[3] And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
[4] I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
[5] and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

If Jesus was created and not God the Father’s eternal Word, how can Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was made?

John 17:[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

John 14:[6] Jesus said to him, "**I am **the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Jesus says, “Thy Word is Truth.” and in another place He says “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

If the Father’s Word is Truth, and Jesus is the Truth, then logically it must be concluded that Jesus is the Father’s Word.