"Jesus IS God!"?

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Frank4YAHWEH said:
Yes, I have seen your post about John 1. It does not say “… and the word was Jesus.” You have yet to show me where a so called “Holy Trinity” doctrine is taught in any translation of Scripture.
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It says “and the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us”, that flesh being the Man Jesus. A yellow flower blossoming like a trumpet from a bulb in early spring can also be called a daffodil, it cannot be called a rose.
 
The_GreyPilgrim said:
John 10:[30]** I and the Father are one." **

Here’s the real kicker:

John 17:[1] When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
[2] since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
[3] And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
[4] I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
[5] and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

If Jesus was created and not God the Father’s eternal Word, how can Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was made?

John 17:[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

John 14:[6] Jesus said to him, "**I am **the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Jesus says, “Thy Word is Truth.” and in another place He says “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

If the Father’s Word is Truth, and Jesus is the Truth, then logically it must be concluded that Jesus is the Father’s Word.
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The following is an excerpt from: MY XANGA BLOG

“The Esteem I Had With You Before The World Was” Yahchanan [John] 17:5

Do these words mean that Messiah was personally with the Father from the very beginning? or are they expressive of the fact that Yahweh, as a wise Architect (Hebrews 11:10), foresaw the esteem of His completed plan?

The latter without doubt! This is shown beyond question because of the use of similar language in the same manner.

So, Kepha [Peter] taught that Yahshua was “foreordained before the foundation of the world but was made known in these last times for you” (1 Kepha [Peter] 1:20). Yahchanan [John] describes him as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8).

Was Yahshua “slain from the foundation of the world”? Typically, yes, in the sacrifices provided; but literally, no.

In like manner, Yahweh, who knows the end from the beginning, foresaw the esteem of the son and proclaimed it through the prophets. The ultimate esteem of Yahshua was in the mind and purpose of the Father from the very beginning.

He also provided for the ultimate glory of Messiah’s followers, so that Yahshua communicated “prayed”]:

“The esteem which You gave me, I have given them” (Yahchanan [John] 17:22).

Do Messiah’s followers possess his esteem now? They do not, they are merely “in hope” of it (cf. Romans 5:2).

How can Messiah then claim to have given it to them? Only in the sense that he has provisionally bestowed it, foreknowing that they to whom it is given in promise will fulfil the conditions to ultimately receive it in reality.

Thus, an accepted follower at Messiah’s coming could well speak to Yahweh as Yahshua communicated to Him:

“Esteem You me with the esteem that I had [in promise] with You before [this millenial] world began!”

Yahweh foreknows the completed purpose, and knowing that He will bring it to consummation, is able to “call those things which be not as though they are” (Rom. 4:17). Shaul taught:

“Yahweh chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be set apart, without blame before Him” (Eph. 1:4).

If Yahchanan 17:5 proves the pre-existence of Yahshua, Ephesians 1:4 must prove the pre-existence of all who are followers of him!

The same language is used of other men whom Yahweh has used in a special way. Of Yeremiah it is written:

“Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations” (Yeremiah 1:5).

Does that prove the pre-existence of Yeremiah? If not, why should Yahchanan 17:5 be used to teach the pre-existence of Yahshua, and so be made to conflict with many other references which speak of him as the son of David born 1900 years ago? Similar language is used of Shaul (Gal. 1: 15) and others. When Messiah returns, his accepted followers will be granted an esteem similar to that bestowed upon the son. They will be “conformed to the image of Yahweh’s son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29).
 
There was another post, Frank, where I dissected John 1 and showed that the The Word is God, and the Word is Jesus. (So Jesus=God.)

Please respond DIRECTLY to the ARGUMENTS and not just say “it doesn’t say the Word was Jesus”. Thanks!

God Bless.
 
JJ59 said:
There was another post, Frank, where I dissected John 1 and showed that the The Word is God, and the Word is Jesus. (So Jesus=God.)

Please respond DIRECTLY to the ARGUMENTS and not just say “it doesn’t say the Word was Jesus”. Thanks!

God Bless.
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Yahchanan 1:1 does not say “… and the word was Yahshua.”
 
Here is a previous post of mine, which shows that the Word is Jesus:

"Scripture does not say it exactly as I worded it, no. You’re still avoiding the arguments, saying instead, “Scripture does not teach ___”. Let’s take a look at John 1:

(I’m using the Douay-Rheims Bible. Please tell me if you object to this translation.(

"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made."

Now, as to the Word being a person, scripture says “he” and “him” when referring to the Word. It’s rather odd for this to be used if the Word is not a person, isn’t it? Not unheard of, but odd. I’m not sure what you think the Word is. But a “concept” or a “symbol” or anything else people call the Word cannot create. (Or have creation come “through it”.) But this is hardly important. Check these next passages out:

There’s more description of the Word and other things, and then this:

"14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace.

17For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

We have established that the Word is God. If it says, “the Word was made flesh”, it means nothing else than “God was made flesh.” Only simple logic, Frank!

“His glory” Whose? Obviously the Word’s. “the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,” this is a title for Jesus, plain and simple! The Word’s glory is Christ’s glory. We therefore see that the Word is Jesus.

What John the Baptist said is what can only be said of Jesus. He talks like this about Christ in Matthew 4 as well, as someone greater who comes after him. John bears witness of “him”. Who is “him”? Again, the Word. So, the Word is Jesus.

“Of his fulness we have received, and grace for grace.” The Word gives us grace, and then it says that grace came by Jesus Christ. Once again, the Word is Jesus!

Now that we’ve dissected and thoroughly analyzed these verses, we see that the Word is Jesus Christ, and you can’t get around that.

Please address my arguments, and thanks for this very interesting theological discussion, Frank!

God Bless."
 
JJ59 said:
Here is a previous post of mine, which shows that the Word is Jesus:

"Scripture does not say it exactly as I worded it, no. You’re still avoiding the arguments, saying instead, “Scripture does not teach ___”. Let’s take a look at John 1:

(I’m using the Douay-Rheims Bible. Please tell me if you object to this translation.(

"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made."

Now, as to the Word being a person, scripture says “he” and “him” when referring to the Word. It’s rather odd for this to be used if the Word is not a person, isn’t it? Not unheard of, but odd. I’m not sure what you think the Word is. But a “concept” or a “symbol” or anything else people call the Word cannot create. (Or have creation come “through it”.) But this is hardly important. Check these next passages out:

There’s more description of the Word and other things, and then this:

"14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.

16And of his fulness we all have received, and grace for grace.

17For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

We have established that the Word is God. If it says, “the Word was made flesh”, it means nothing else than “God was made flesh.” Only simple logic, Frank!

“His glory” Whose? Obviously the Word’s. “the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,” this is a title for Jesus, plain and simple! The Word’s glory is Christ’s glory. We therefore see that the Word is Jesus.

What John the Baptist said is what can only be said of Jesus. He talks like this about Christ in Matthew 4 as well, as someone greater who comes after him. John bears witness of “him”. Who is “him”? Again, the Word. So, the Word is Jesus.

“Of his fulness we have received, and grace for grace.” The Word gives us grace, and then it says that grace came by Jesus Christ. Once again, the Word is Jesus!

Now that we’ve dissected and thoroughly analyzed these verses, we see that the Word is Jesus Christ, and you can’t get around that.

Please address my arguments, and thanks for this very interesting theological discussion, Frank!

God Bless."
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Yahchanan 1:1 does not say “… and the word was Yahshua.” In fact, nowhere in Scripture is it ever said “The word was Jesus.”
 
Very true. But it does have MASSIVE implications that the Word is Jesus.

Please go directly to my arguments instead of saying the same thing over and over.

Thanks and God Bless.
 
Maybe this will help:

What do you think John means when he says “The Word was made flesh”?
 
JJ59 said:
Maybe this will help:

What do you think John means when he says “The Word was made flesh”?
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I already pointed out that Yahshua was a spokesman of Father Yahweh’s word in this last time period and you disageed with me when this a plainly taught in the so called “New Testament”. Yahshua’s own words reveal that he is the spokeman of Father Yahweh’s word. See the so called “New Testament” references in my signature for proof of this fact.
 
The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Three names for three persons yet there is only one God so there are three persons in one God.

There is a father, a mother, and a child in a family. Three persons make up this one family.

John explains who Jesus is. Jesus is the Word of God. Scripture states that Jesus is equal with God. And the Word of God is God as many persons have pointed out in the thread using John 1.

Jesus is only one of the three persons of one God just as a father is only one of the three persons of one family.

It looks as if Frank4YAHWEH does not have the ability to reason. It is very plain to see from Scripture that Jesus is the Word of God and Jesus/Word is God in John 1 and that Jesus is both God and Man. Perhaps Frank4YAHWEH would be happier on a forum with like-minded persons who will agree with him. We will not be changing our minds here.

SHW
 
SHW said:
There is a father, a mother, and a child in a family. Three persons make up this one family.
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You say that I have not the ability to reason? Well let’s use your reasoning then!

There is my FATHER, my mother, and I am their child (SON). This is my family, right?

Am I my FATHER? Certainly not! I am my father’s son! Any simpleton knows one can not be their own father!
 
Frank4YAHWEH said:
You say that I have not the ability to reason? Well let’s use your reasoning then!

There is my FATHER, my mother, and I am their child (SON). This is my family, right?

Am I my FATHER? Certainly not! I am my father’s son! Any simpleton knows one can not be their own father!
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No one said that Jesus is the Father.
 
An even better analogy is water, steam and ice. All three are different, and yet all three are water. There is, of course, no completely perfect analogy, because it’s a divine mystery.

I’m also waiting for a reply to my John 1 arguments.

God Bless.
 
Frank4YAHWEH said:
You say that I have not the ability to reason? Well let’s use your reasoning then!

There is my FATHER, my mother, and I am their child (SON). This is my family, right?

Am I my FATHER? Certainly not! I am my father’s son! Any simpleton knows one can not be their own father!
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I never said that Jesus was His own Father. That would be absurd.

Jesus is not His Father. Jesus is the Son of the Father. But Jesus is still God. Both He and His Father are God. The Holy Spirit is God, too. Three persons make one God just like three persons (father, mother, and child) make one family. 🙂

SHW
 
ralphinal said:
No one said that Jesus is the Father.
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Using the reasoning that is used by those in this forum thread that believe “Jesus is God”, they most certainly do believe “Jesus is the Father”.
 
SHW said:
I never said that Jesus was His own Father. That would be absurd.

Jesus is not His Father. Jesus is the Son of the Father. But Jesus is still God. Both He and His Father are God. The Holy Spirit is God, too. Three persons make one God just like three persons (father, mother, and child) make one family. 🙂

SHW
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That is simple enough then! You worship a family of “Gods” that consist of three members, and I do not. Now that we have that settled, I guess that is the end of the discussion, right? 🤷
 
** I am surprised at the arguments of Catholics. If John is the one (gentile) who wrote the fourth gospel then my remarks are as follows:
  1. Why only John came to know about the “word+god” business?
  2. Why did not mathew know about it?
  3. Why not Mark and Luke know about it?
  4. It is well known that Mathew, Mark and Luke were Jews.
  5. They would not make a God out of a man.
  6. Only a gentile could do that, Yes or No?
  7. The sentence "Word was with God. Word was God… seems strange sentence.
  8. That is, It was with God and it was God? What do we understand from that?
  9. There is no direct name of Jesus in those verses at all.
    10… It is okay to say that Jesus was speaking the word of God on earth.
  10. But there could not be a duplex role for Jesus.**
 
JJ59 said:
There is, of course, no completely perfect analogy, because it’s a divine mystery.
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If you believe it to be a “divine mystery”, then why on earth would you even attempt to believe that you know and try to explain it?
 
My fried, it seems you have a problem understanding that Lord=God. If you don’t understand that…, then you have completely misunderstood the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. Try learning a thing or two…good luck!!

11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:11

Alejo
 
planten said:
** I am surprised at the arguments of Catholics. If John is the one (gentile) who wrote the fourth gospel then my remarks are as follows:
  1. Why only John came to know about the “word+god” business?
  2. Why did not mathew know about it?
  3. Why not Mark and Luke know about it?
  4. It is well known that Mathew, Mark and Luke were Jews.
  5. They would not make a God out of a man.
  6. Only a gentile could do that, Yes or No?
  7. The sentence "Word was with God. Word was God… seems strange sentence.
  8. That is, It was with God and it was God? What do we understand from that?
  9. There is no direct name of Jesus in those verses at all.
    10… It is okay to say that Jesus was speaking the word of God on earth.
  10. But there could not be a duplex role for Jesus.**
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I believe that Yahchanan was speaking about “the beginning” in Genesis of the so called “Old Testament” where Father Yahweh spoke (“the word”) and what He proposed to be created came into being. I believe Yahshua was speaking the word of Yahweh on earth as is revealed in the passages in my signature. He was Father Yahweh’s spokesman in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
 
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