"Jesus IS God!"?

[look3467]

Thomas is an example of some who will not exercise faith in belief unless they first see a miracle.
All the Apostles, even though walked with Jesus had not the Holy Spirit in dwelling as we have it today, for Jesus had not as yet being offered up.

Hence, they were some what not fully convinced, yet wanting to strongly believe and their expectations were satisfied when the resurrected Jesus came back to visit them and were later all baptized with the Holy Spirit, of which after, in dwelled in them.

Faith is excercising belief in something heard without any proof.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Faith cometh by? Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Blessing, AJ

 

[MHalsey]

Scripture is only where I am instructed to get my doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness.

All scripture is given by inspiration of Yahweh, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of Yahweh may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all righteous works (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

I am never instructed in Scripture to get my doctrine from the so called “Holy Roman Catholic Church”.

To Believe “Jesus IS God!” Is To Be Deceived!

Did Yahshua Create?

Note that the passage from Timothy says ALL, not ONLY. That is why we also have Sacred Tradition (with a big T). After all, without Sacred Tradition, we wouldn’t even have the Bible. The Catholic Church existed before anything in the New Testament was even written down. The Catholic Church has the authority to interpret scripture as has been pointed out by Jesus giving authority to Peter and later to the apostles.

Also, you are instructed to hold fast to the traditions taught and not just from scripture:

2 Thess 2:13-15

But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits 7 for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth.
To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

So, where does **YOUR **authority come from to interpret the scriptures? I’m pretty sure I never read anywhere that Frank had that authority. Therefore, I’ll trust what the Holy Catholic Church teaches.

To quote another poster here:

**You will die in your unbelief unless you repent. This is not that difficult, but somewhere down the road you have been misguided.

–snip–

I pray now for Yahweh’s blessing on you spiritual sight. God bless! **

 

[Hilde89]

Sorry if it’s been asked, but what does it mean when it says “one third of a triune God”? He’s not being fractioned like a cake is he? I’m just hesitant to vote that one.

 

[SHW]

God the Father = creator of all there is
God the Son = Jesus = creator of the new life by rebirth
God the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of Christ omnipresent in all of us.

To fully understand these three we must first understand their administrative purposes.

God the Father created all there is, heaven, earth, animals and humanity.
The creation came with consequences and that being separation, or in other words, spiritual death.
Casting out of Adam and Eve is but an understandable story to show why we were alienated from God due to knowledge, making us as like gods and the consequences of it.

Hi AJ,

The “world” was also created through the Word (Second Person of the Blessed Trinity) who became flesh (Jesus Christ).

John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.”

Perhaps you’d like to read Holy Trinity. It is a different view than yours.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Sorry if it’s been asked, but what does it mean when it says “one third of a triune God”? He’s not being fractioned like a cake is he? I’m just hesitant to vote that one.

Hi Hilde,

There is one God. There are three distinct persons in this one Godhead (Divinity). We call this one God the Blessed Trinity because this Divinity is actually three different persons yet they share equally only one Divine nature. There can be only one God.

The Father, (1st Person of the Trinity)
The Son, (Word) (2nd Person of the Trinity)
The Holy Spirit (3rd Person of the Trinity)

All are spoken of as He(s). All three are equal to each other.
I hope this helps. I linked to a Scripture study in my previous post called the “Holy Trinity.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Hilde89]

I know what the Trinity is, believe me. But the son is not one third of God. He is 100% God, so are the other persons. He is one of the three persons in the tripersonal God. That’s why I said the thing about the cake. Clear as mud?

 

[planten]

**BibleNT has been written specially by men to preach the philosophy of Saul. If we go by the bibleNT, it is telling that Jesus may have died. But still there are proofs in the bibleNT itself that he did not die.

Please see some words of SHW below:

John 11:51 "Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest

**that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,"

Mark 15:43-45 “Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He (Jesus) was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.”

John 11:51, some preist said that Jesus would die. That is not God speaking. I say that Jesus knew that he would die. Jesus told every one who wanted to follow him to carry their own cross. Because it was difficult mission. So the saying of a priest has no real value.

How can any priest prophesize? Prophecies are for the prophets, not for the priests.

Mark 14:43-45, Pilate marvelled that he was already dead. It means (and I read it some where) that Pilate was surprised that Jesus could die so quickly. It means, Pilate could not believe that Jesus was really dead. That is why he summoned the Centurian. The Centurian was all ready to save Jesus. So there was no problem certifying that Jesus was dead.

Look in anothe rpost has mentioned doubting Thomas, that Thomas saw the wounds then he believed. That wounds were the proof of the miracle. What miracle? The miracle of getting up after death or the miracle of being safe after the event of the cross? The wounds could not be any proof of death. I am sure of that.

The real miracle is the survival at the cross when death was imminent. That is the miracle for the sake of Jesus. the survival could be called a miracle. Dying on the cross could not be any miracle nor getting up after death could be any miracle.

 

[SHW]

I know what the Trinity is, believe me. But the son is not one third of God. He is 100% God, so are the other persons. He is one of the three persons in the tripersonal God. That’s why I said the thing about the cake. Clear as mud?

You are correct in that the Son is not one-third God. The Son is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There are three Persons in the Godhead (Divinity). It is a mystery that cannot be fully comprehended by our finite minds. We need to believe it even though we cannot fully understand it because Scripture states that “there is one God.”

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”

James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!”

Jesus commands the disciples to baptize in the names of the three Persons of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:18-20.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Hilde89]

But the alternative states “One third of a triune “God””, and many have chosen it.

 

[planten]

You are correct in that the Son is not one-third God. The Son is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There are three Persons in the Godhead (Divinity). It is a mystery that cannot be fully comprehended by our finite minds. We need to believe it even though we cannot fully understand it because Scripture states that “there is one God.”

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”

James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!”

Jesus commands the disciples to** baptize in the names of the three Persons of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit** Matthew 28:18-20.

Pax,
SHW

** SHW, it is alright when Jesus said " baptize in the names of the three Persons of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…" But that did not mean that jesus was God. We as Muslims have the name of Muhammad in our kalimah that " there is no God except Allah and Muhammad is the servant and messenge rof Allah." That means name of Muhammad is there but he is described as a humble servant and messenger of Allah. he is not god or Allah.

Same goes for Jesus. The name of Jesus is necessary when his followers invite any one to God. There is no other way to go to God except through Jesus. So name of Jesus has to be there when baptising. But it did not mean that you people make a God out of him. Even Holy spirit should be mentione dbecause that spirit was with Jesus all the time, guiding him and supporting him and that was a link between Jesus and God whom Jesus called the Father.

That word “Father” was out of love and respect only. It was symbolic and parabolic word. Not really to make Jesus the son of God. All people are the children of God spiritually.

All the words are there but Muslims take different meaning and the Catholics take different meaning. Catholics try to take the literal meaning even though those words are symbolic only.

We believe that jesus was the Light, and the way. We believe that jesus was:

1. the servant of God,
2. the prophet of God,
3. The word of God,
4. The spirit from God,
5. The good news from God,
6. The sign of God (means much but not all know about it)
7. The messenger of God.
8. The man of God,
9. The one appointed by God.
10. The one elected and selected by God.
11. The true representative of God.

That is all, no more.**

 

[allhers]

John 8:21-29
Jesus said to the Pharisees:
“I am going away and you will look for me,
but you will die in your sin.
Where I am going you cannot come.”
So the Jews said,
“He is not going to kill himself, is he,
because he said, ‘Where I am going you cannot come’?”
He said to them, “You belong to what is below,
I belong to what is above.
You belong to this world,
but I do not belong to this world.
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins.
For if you do not believe that** I AM**,
you will die in your sins.”
So they said to him, “Who are you?”
Jesus said to them, “What I told you from the beginning.
I have much to say about you in condemnation.
But the one who sent me is true,
and what I heard from him I tell the world.”
They did not realize that he was speaking to them of the Father.
So Jesus said to them,
"When you lift up the Son of Man,
then you will realize that I AM,
and that I do nothing on my own,
but I say only what the Father taught me.
The one who sent me is with me.
He has not left me alone,
because I always do what is pleasing to him."

 

[mary73]

A few questions to ask…

1. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? Three distictly differnt persons in one being? Without this one can’t understand the concept of God. God the Father the all knowing is the mind and rationale of the belief. The Son Jesus is the heart of the triune, the compassionate and forgiving side of God. The Spirit is the force that allows one to carry on Gods good deeds.
2. Are you reading from Hebrew text? If so, the Hebrew text will claim that Jesus is a false prophet And that any such claim of His being one in the Father and the same are lies.
3. God turned Himself into man that man may come to know His love for them. Because man did not understand this, [and in many cases still doesn’t] that He yes God is 3 persons in 1 God. And that Jesus IS God. A divine person in that one God.

Ifyou need clarification ask the Fr on the panel. Gods Blessings upon you…Mary

 

[LilyM]

** The words of doubting Thomas “Oh my God.” are some words of surprise only and some exclamation of sudden great happiness. Thomas, a Jew, was praising The God by those words. It was not meant that he was calling Jesus as his god. Not at all. Why did not any of the other 10 say or call Jesus as their god? Why only Thomas.

That is how we read the words of the bibleNT and we expect the Catholics to think over it please. Our two pence.

**

Rubbish. Thomas would no more be praising God such a blasphemous expression than most people today praise God when they say ‘Oh God!’ or ‘My God!’. Even as an expression of surprise or happiness, 99% of the time today it is blasphemy. And if Thomas had used it in such a way it would’ve been, as well.

Who cares what the other ten said or didn’t say at the time? Thomas DID declare Jesus to be God. Jesus accepted the declaration. It is enough. Just as Jesus declared Himself to be God in front of the Sanhedrin by accepting their accusation of blasphemy. His words construed in any way other than as a declaration of divinity wouldn’t be blasphemous at all - the Sanhedrin would have no reason to condemn Him.

And the other Apostles did so later - Peter in Acts, when he declares that salvation comes through no other name than that of Jesus. Such references to salvation being ONLY through the name of Jesus are littered throughout the books of the New Testament.

What a blasphemy to say such a thing about a mere man - as if a mere man could save us! Only God can, salvation ONLY comes through God, and if salvation comes through Jesus, as Peter and the other NT writers state, then it can only possibly mean that they believed Jesus to be God.

John, another Apostle, outright declared Jesus to be God in his gospel as well - by declaring Jesus to be the Word of God made flesh (human).

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**Algabriel, you have tried to explain but it is not convincing. Do you believe that Thomas could not recognise Jesus? That he could not believe it was Jesus? Far from it. You are trying to impose that Thomas would not believe that it was Jesus until he saw the wounds. that is ridiculous. Did any other apostle not recognise Jesus until they saw the wounds? No.

Gabriel of 12;

You are wrong again; Mary Magdalene did not recognize Jesus, she thougth Jesus was the gardner until Jesus spoke her name; The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road while they talked to him, they did not recognize Jesus until he gave them the Eucharist, or in the breaking of bread.

Luke 24:29
But they urged him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30
And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
**With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. ****

Planten:
The wounds could not be any sign of Jesus being God. If there were no wounds then it could be said to be a sign for every one.

Gabriel of 12:

Jesus kept his wounds to prove he rose from the dead to eyewitnesses; Jesus kept his wounds so that he can offer his sacrifice unto God for your sins and mine, that is why Jesus as the “lamb of God, looking as though slain”.

Planten:
You believe that Jesus died and then got up. I believe that he had not died at all. Resurrection is a special word which has been invented for some special purpose. It is otherwise written that Jesus had “Risen”… From “Risen” you take the meaning of resurrection? How come? It would be too much simplicity to assume things like that.

Gabriel of 12;
Thomas doubted, saw and then confessed Jesus to be his lord “AND” his God. Jesus said blessed is the man who did not see as Thomas has, yet still believes. Why cant you believe?

 

[allhers]

John 14:1
Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.

 

[SHW]

** SHW, it is alright when Jesus said " baptize in the names of the three Persons of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…" But that did not mean that jesus was God. We as Muslims have the name of Muhammad in our kalimah that " there is no God except Allah and Muhammad is the servant and messenge rof Allah." That means name of Muhammad is there but he is described as a humble servant and messenger of Allah. he is not god or Allah.
**

Hi

The Word is God. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. If you read John 1 you will see that this is what Scripture says about Jesus.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

If you read the rest of John 1, you can figure out that the Word (God) made flesh is definitely Jesus, who is also the Lamb of God. Since the Word of God is God, then Jesus who is the “Word made flesh” also has to be God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is very difficult to understand for some persons. None of us understands it completely because it is a Divine Mystery which is too complicated for our finite minds to grasp. We accept what we do not understand by faith.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**
We believe that jesus was the Light, and the way. We believe that jesus was:

1. the servant of God,
2. the prophet of God,
3. The word of God,
4. The spirit from God,
5. The good news from God,
6. The sign of God (means much but not all know about it)
7. The messenger of God.
8. The man of God,
9. The one appointed by God.
10. The one elected and selected by God.
11. The true representative of God.

That is all, no more.**

Gabriel of 12:
Interesting post planten? If you truly believe Jesus is all of the above then why dont you take up your cross and follow him? Or are these just words blowing in the wind? Jesus knows how difficult it would be for some to believe in him, so Jesus said, “if you dont believe in me”, then believe in the Works I do". Jesus died for you and me, so that we might have eternal life with “Abba” Father. If you truly believe Jesus was a messenger of God, why dont you accept his message from God and follow him?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi

The Word is God. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. If you read John 1 you will see that this is what Scripture says about Jesus.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

If you read the rest of John 1, you can figure out that the Word (God) made flesh is definitely Jesus, who is also the Lamb of God. Since the Word of God is God, then Jesus who is the “Word made flesh” also has to be God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is very difficult to understand for some persons. None of us understands it completely because it is a Divine Mystery which is too complicated for our finite minds to grasp. We accept what we do not understand by faith.

Pax,
SHW

Gabriel of 12:
Amen SHW, the Trinity is a divine mystery; I could not get any takers for Genesis 1:26
4 Then God said: “**Let us **make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

 

[SHW]

Gabriel of 12:
Amen SHW, the Trinity is a divine mystery; I could not get any takers for Genesis 1:26
4 Then God said: “**Let us **make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

Hi Gabriel,

Very good point! God is spoken of as both “plural” and “singular” within two adjoining sentences. Thank you for showing it to us.

Pax,
SHW

I didn’t realize that I was in “Non-Catholic Religions” when I first posted to this thread. I clicked on this topic from another thread. I thought I was still in “Sacred Scripture” which is the forum that I normally post in.

 

[planten]

Gabriel of 12:
Interesting post planten? If you truly believe Jesus is all of the above then why dont you take up your cross and follow him? Or are these just words blowing in the wind? Jesus knows how difficult it would be for some to believe in him, so Jesus said, “if you dont believe in me”, then believe in the Works I do". Jesus died for you and me, so that we might have eternal life with “Abba” Father. If you truly believe Jesus was a messenger of God, why dont you accept his message from God and follow him?

Thanks for the invitation. I do sincerely believe in all that I had written in my post. No doubt about it. Thank you very much, Gabriel of 12.