Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[Sister_Amy]

The authors of the Koran pathetically failed to concur on the exact number of Surahs demanded from disbelievers to prove its supposed divine origin:

Surah 10:38. Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.

Surah 11:13. Or they say: He hath invented it. Say: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

From one chapter to ten, then to one again!!!

Surah 2:23. And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.

sigh

Actually, the FIRST challenge was to bring a whole Qur’an.

And then the challenge was reduced, made easier–ten chapters.

And THEN it was even further reduced for you pitiful humans, to just ONE chapter.

 

[inJESUS]

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur’an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.

islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ijaz.html

and who is the judge Amy?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sorry to disappoint you. I don’t disbelieve in these things, but I believe they are God’s word to me. The Qur’an is God’s word to them. Because God says different things to different peoples this does not make Him a liar. Again I tell you, God operates on a higher plane than you and I.

I guess I’ve lost my mind.

I have also said on this thread that the revelations given to Christians through Christ are His most sublime. So far, no Muslims have disputed this.

Then allow me to dispute this.

There is only One God.

God has revealed his word to mankind–instructed us in how to worship him, and how to live on the earth.

Everything that has come from God, has come from God. (I know that sounds redundant, but I mean it that way.)

You can’t say there is something that God revealed which is less divine or less sublime than something else which God revealed.

Moses, Jesus, Muhammad–all were teaching what God willed them to teach, but to different groups of people.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What God taught us Transcends these laws.

But men are not transcendent. Men need laws.

Can you imagine a society without laws?

 

[Sister_Amy]

neither. He is indeed only sent to the only people who await Him, and likewise extending it to all nations, as per the OT and NT. Where is the difficulty?

It’s called a contradiction.

 

[hamba2han]

Sorry to disappoint you. I don’t disbelieve in these things, but I believe they are God’s word to me. The Qur’an is God’s word to them. Because God says different things to different peoples this does not make Him a liar. Again I tell you, God operates on a higher plane than you and I.

I guess I’ve lost my mind.

I have also said on this thread that the revelations given to Christians through Christ are His most sublime. So far, no Muslims have disputed this.

The significance of the Qur’an with regard to the Bible and all other earlier scriptures is like this:

Why read last week’s newspaper when today’s edition has just been delivered to your door-step?

Why refer to an old obsolete book which has many of it’s pages either missing, torn or defaced to the point of being unreadable when the very latest complete and revised edition of the book by the very same author is now available at your neighbourhood bookstore?

 

[Ed_Rand]

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)

**“What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?” **(Deuteronomy 4:7-8)

How does God measure the "greatness’’ of a nation?

Do Christians even have a clue?

Muslims certainly have little doubt as to what the above Biblical verses mean since the definition of a “great nation” according to what God Himself says in Deuteronomy 4:7-8 above is just so very clear.

Do Christians honestly believe that God will refer to a nation that will go against His Commands as a “great nation”?

This issue is quite important to this discussion.

 

[inJESUS]

Tell me, was Jesus teaching something other than God’s words? Because you said you have God’s words in addition to what Jesus taught. Are they… not the same?

i meant we have God’s words in the OT* of Jews* and Jesus’ words in the NT (backed up by the OT for believers in Jesus). In other words, i meant to say OT and NT . Surely they are not different for God’s Word is not different than God.

What I say is backed up by scripture too. But if you don’t believe in mine… why should I give any more credence to yours?

 

[Ed_Rand]

inJESUS;3793152:

He specifically told his apostles to not

go to the Gentiles. Matthew 10:5.

Wrong. The disciples always approached Jews first everywhere they went. But we were commanded to teach all nations.

 

[Angelos]

Not at all. How do you prove something is from God? By showing that no man is capable of doing the same. Because if a man can do it, then why believe it is from God?

You fail to get my point! That challenge in the Koran is a fallacious one because it asks people to produce a chapter like the one in the Koran, accepting from the first the idea of fabrication. How would have Mohammad reacted if a guy really had devised a chapter like the one in the Koran? The answer is simple: he would have accused the man of fabricating something and said, “you yourself have written this, how can you claim it is revealed to you from Allah?”

Then perhaps an uneducated and dishonest man could do it? Really, your argument makes no sense at all. Frankly, that’s typical from you. Besides, a person doesn’t have to even write a whole book like the Qur’an, *just one chapter! *

The shortest chapter of the Qur’an is this:

إِنَّا أَعْطَيْنَاكَ الْكَوْثَرَ
فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ
إِنَّ شَانِئَكَ هُوَ الْأَبْتَرُ

Inna aAtayna kal kawthar
Fasalli li rabbika wanhar
Inna shani-aka huwal abtar

Verily We have given to you the abundance
So pray to your Lord and sacrifice
Indeed your enemy is the one who is cut off

That’s it. All you have to do is create one chapter like that! Three short lines!!

People did not need to be dishonest and uneducated only to prove that Mohammad’s book did not come from Allah!

Now I am defying you and writing a very short chapter similar to the one in the Koran:

“Those who say that Allah revealed to Mohammad are in manifest error, for Allah has never revealed anything to Mohammad. The adherents of that claim know nothing about divine revelations, but put their hope and faith in false assumptions.”

Do you like this? Now does this act of production make me equal to Allah?

If you like it, I am going to produce more than that. Just let me know

 

[Sister_Amy]

This issue is quite important to this discussion.

I agree with hamba2han on this issue.

If God says He will make a “great nation” then it must be a great nation IN GOD. Because why would God say that something profane (not sacred) is “great?”

I’ve actually brought up this argument before, and the good Catholics responded by telling me that materialism is great. They think that spirituality is exclusive to themselves, and that what is great is really wealth and power, and not piety.

But when God says something is great, or will be great, this is sacred language in a sacred book, and it must refer to something sacred as well. So naturally, it must be a nation that is great–great in God.

 

[Ed_Rand]

I think it’s a good point.

 

[morning_star777]

So you think that billions of Muslims do… what when they distribute inheritance? Make money out of thin air?

its very easy to edit quran.like brother planten gave us solution that daughters will get 13/24(he couldn’t give reference from quran),but according to quran daughter will get2/3(one case that i wrote before).and another case sisters wil get 2/3 also if no children(sura4:176)then the estimate also cross

 

[Sister_Amy]

You fail to get my point! That challenge in the Koran is a fallacious one because it asks people to produce a chapter like the one in the Koran, accepting from the first the idea of fabrication. How would have Mohammad reacted if a guy really had devised a chapter like the one in the Koran? The answer is simple: he would have accused the man of fabricating something and said, “you yourself have written this, how can you claim it is revealed to you from Allah?”

People did not need to be dishonest and uneducated only to prove that Mohammad’s book did not come from Allah!

Now I am defying you and writing a very short chapter similar to the one in the Koran:

“Those who say that Allah revealed to Mohammad are in manifest error, for Allah has never revealed anything to Mohammad. The adherents of that claim know nothing about divine revelations, but put their hope and faith in false assumptions.”

Do you like this? Now does this act of production make me equal to Allah?

If you like it, I am going to produce more than that. Just let me know

That’s cute. And lame.

Seriously, visit the link: hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2007/07/three-lines-that-changed-world.html

Yours is missing the Arabic flow and rhyme (since it’s not in Arabic), rhetorical devices, rhyth, emphasis, etc. Seriously, take a look at that website… you won’t find your mockery so amusing then, I think.

 

[Ed_Rand]

So was he lying when he said “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel?” Matthew 15:24. Was he lying?QUOTE]

Jesus changed what our undertanding of what “Israel” is. It’s extent is dependent on faith.

 

[Angelos]

Actually, the FIRST challenge was to bring a whole Qur’an.

And then the challenge was reduced, made easier–ten chapters.

And THEN it was even further reduced for you pitiful humans, to just ONE chapter.

Stop lying please! I am not an idiot to confuse one chapter with the whole Koran!

The first verse I quoted does not ask people to produce the whole Koran (the Koran was not complete at that time either! How could Mohammad have asked people to copy an incomplete book in its entirety???), but ONE SURAH. Compare the verse in Surah 10 with the one in Surah 2: they are identical in form!

sigh

 

[inJESUS]

Sorry to disappoint you. I don’t disbelieve in these things, but I believe they are God’s word to me

. The Qur’an is God’s word to them. Because God says different things to different peoples this does not make Him a liar. Again I tell you, God operates on a higher plane than you and I.

I guess I’ve lost my mind.

God tells you : Ed, Jesus died for you
Allah tells you : Ed, you are **deluded **if you think Jesus died.

Can this be the same God???

 

[Sister_Amy]

its very easy to edit quran.like brother planten gave us solution that daughters will get 13/24(he couldn’t give reference from quran),but according to quran daughter will get2/3.

(just for one case that i wrote before).

I get it. You don’t understand the Qur’an and you can’t do math. There is a whole course at the university level on inheritance law, and you think that you can learn it off of a forum. Please, if you want to learn, go find someone to teach you.

 

[inJESUS]

.

well if you read Bukhari, he writes that Ishmael settled with Arabs and learnt Arabic from them. How can he be their father?

 

[ralphinal]

If the Qur’an were written by a man, then surely another man would be capable of creating something comparable to it. Right?

islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ijaz.html

“The Quran is one of the world’s classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.” Alfred Guillaume, Islam, 1990 (Reprinted), Penguin Books, pp. 73-74.

So the Qur’an is from God because it is good literature, at least in the Arabic? That rings slightly strange to me, almost off key.

The Lord of the Rings books are considered excellent literature, but not devine. Shakespere’s works have been translated into Klingon, along with hundreds of other languages, they are considered so wonderful. That does not make them devine.

Good literature does not prove divinity.