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Ed_Rand
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God made the general promise to Abraham: “I will bless all nations through you.” God made his covenant with Isaac. God also made a promise to Isaac that was exactly the same as the one to Ishmael.
None of you have answered my questions!!! Is the promise of a great nation made to Isaac foretelling Christianity? As Christians, I believe we must say yes. The promise is the same to Ismael; therefore, the fulfillment of this promise must be a faith comparable to Christianity. This is logic.
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inJESUS
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Ed_Rand
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Ed_Rand
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prove otherwise.
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Ed_Rand
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As I said 3-5 times already, I don’t think God operates on our level. I don’t think you can explain it in human terms like that. and believe me, I get your point already. I’ve done my best to explain myself.
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Angelos
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This is NOT true! There are several verses in the Koran that confine the supposed revelation to Mohammad’s folk:The Qur’an was revealed for you, just like it was revealed for the Jews, and for the Christians, even for the disbelievers.
Oh People of the Book… it says
Oh Children of Israel… it says
Oh MANKIND! it says (yaa ayyaha annaas)
It was revealed for all of mankind.
Surah 43:3 Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture, in Arabic that haply ye may understand.
Surah 43:44 And lo! it is in truth a Reminder for thee and for thy folk; and ye will be questioned.
Surah 26:198-199 If We had revealed it unto one of any other nation than the Arabs, And he had read it unto them, they would not have believed in it.
Surah 28: 46 And thou was not beside the Mount when We did call; but (the knowledge of it is) a mercy from thy Lord that thou mayst warn a folk unto whom no warner came before thee, that haply they may give heed.
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inJESUS
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Ed_Rand
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inJESUS
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indeed, God does say His thoughts are not our thoughts, but God says He is truthful to His words. When He says that Jesus died, it means Jesus died. If someone says the opposite, He is not God…i think we must not include non-sense under “God’s thoughts”…denying Jesus’ crucifixion and sonship is an insult to everything Jesus did and said …God will never ever ***tell them ***that Jesus is neither His Son nor was crucifixion because this is pure non-sense of a psycho.
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inJESUS
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Ed_Rand
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Did you look up Havilah? This is from Wikipedia:
“Havilah is usually associated with northwest Yemen (see the Table of Nations), but in the work associated with the Garden of Eden by Juris Zarins, the Hijaz mountains south of Medina (circa 400 miles north of Yemen) appear to potentially meet the description of Havila.”
Much coincidence I would say. Much. Very hard to explain away.
This is an important point to remember. In other parts of Genesis, those who are not part of God’s covenant are often the fathers of Israel’s enemies. Examples: Lot’s incest with his daughters produced Israel’s enemies Moab and Ammon. Esau was the father of the Edomites, etc. During Old Testament times the Jews were enemies of the Ishmaelites and were even persecuted by them. But yet, while the fathers of all the other enemy nations are shown to have faulty character, such as Lot and Esau, Genesis records that God had mercy on Ishmael and heard his cry. This is unique among Israel’s enemies. How honest the Jewish scribes were! Their people had historically been persecuted by the Ishmaelites but nonetheless they kept the record of God’s promise to make them into a great nation.
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Angelos
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I shall let God’s word speak against you:
Genesis 17:19-22
And God said to Abraham: Sara thy wife shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name Isaac, and I will establish my covenant with him for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ismael I have also heard thee. Behold, I will bless him, and increase, and multiply him exceedingly: he shall beget twelve chiefs, and I will make him a great nation. **But **my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sara shall bring forth to thee at this time in the next year. And when he had left off speaking with him, God went up from Abraham.
I have answered your questions several times so far. Just read my previous posts about our spiritual link to Christ, who is physically linked to the divine promise of the eternal covenant.
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inJESUS
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indeeds, which renders Muhammad an intruder, even if he were Ishmaels’ lovely son…I have answered your questions several times so far. Just read my previous posts about our spiritual link to Christ, who is physically linked to the divine promise of the eternal covenant.
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swariffin
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Dear Ed,
Look at Exodus 11:10 “And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.”. Would it not that God himself made the Pharaoh’s hardened his heart? so he still refused to let the Israellite go with Moses? Will Moses in heaven met this Pharaoh who has hardened his heart as made by God?
God did says to different people in different ways in different times. But, the message is the same. You are not saying God is inconsistent, are you? God did teach the people to be meek, so violence will cease to exist. God teach the people to be faithful, so faith will save. God warns us about the suffering or the cross we must carry, so we can be the salt of the world. Blessed are those who was persecuted for the name of God, because it will be devil who will become the persecutor. Definitely it will not God who teach other people to persecute another people whom was told previously to be meek. Different ways, different time, to different people, - Yes. But, different message - No.
That is interesting. The Christian faith is supposed to be tested by the Muslims, with whatever they have in their Quran. What the reward that the Muslims will get, if they finally accomplish the mission to subjudge the Christian as Dhimmi, kill the Christian for being unbelievers, slaughter and enslaved the Christian as being the party being tested? Would the Christian go to heaven being the martyr and met those who prosecute them who get the reward for having “testing” mission accomplished?
Look at Exodus 11:10 “And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.”. Would it not that God himself made the Pharaoh’s hardened his heart? so he still refused to let the Israellite go with Moses? Will Moses in heaven met this Pharaoh who has hardened his heart as made by God?
Indeed you are correct. All people are created under the image of God. So that all people must have the same property of God, one of those is LOVE. Those who do not have LOVE in the their heart means have erased the image of God within them. I do believe that all human regardless of religion (including the moslem and the Ahmadians), culture, geographical environment, education, etc (you name it) can enter heaven if they maintain the image of God within them.
I don’t know what Muhammad really meant for saying this. But for sure, I don’t think that even the Muslim scholars will have a common single interpretation.
Indeed brothers. Those who live in faith to God will enter into life, but not faith to “things appears to be God”.
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Ed_Rand
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I myself have already quoted all these passages. As I said, the covenant was for Isaac, the promise was to both.I shall let God’s word speak against you:
Genesis 17:19-22
And God said to Abraham: Sara thy wife shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name Isaac, and I will establish my covenant with him for a perpetual covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ismael I have also heard thee. Behold, I will bless him, and increase, and multiply him exceedingly: he shall beget twelve chiefs, and I will make him a great nation. **But **my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sara shall bring forth to thee at this time in the next year. And when he had left off speaking with him, God went up from Abraham.
I have answered your questions several times so far. Just read my previous posts about our spiritual link to Christ, who is physically linked to the divine promise of the eternal covenant.
This conversation has been the most interesting of my whole life, but you guys have stopped paying attention to me. Read post #349.
The covenant was only to Isaac. The covenant was only to Isaac. The covenant was only to Isaac. The covenant was only to Isaac. The covenant was only to Isaac.
The promise was the same to both. The promise was the same to both. The promise was the same to both. The promise was the same to both. The promise was the same to both. The promise was the same to both.
I’m starting to feel that I’m wasting my time here.
You guys have still not explained what the promise means. If only the above verse about the covenant was foretelling Christianity, as inJESUS said a few posts back, what did the promises about the nations–that He made to both sons in the same language–foretell? they must be comparable nations in some way or form because the promise was the same.
So are they physical, spiritual, what?
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Ed_Rand
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He is saying basically the same thing that Paul teaches in Romans chapter 4. Abraham came before the law and before Christ. If we live by faith as he did, it does not matter if we follow Christianity or Islam.
Funny that Satan would teach so many of the same things as God. And warn his audience constantly about himself. He sure is crafty!!!
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Angelos
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I am talking about the PROMISE of eternal covenant, the promise of eternal covenant, the promise of eternal covenant, the promise of eternal covenant, the promise of eternal covenant …
only with Isaac’s seed, only with Isaac’s seed, only with Isaac’s seed, only with Isaac’s seed, only with Isaac’s seed, only with Isaac’s seed …
Therefore, one promise is NOT the same as the other! Suppose I promised two people that I would employ them. I also added that only one of the persons employed would get a permanent position in the job. Can you say that my promise meant the same for both persons?
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morning_star777
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really?so it also does not matter if we believe jesus is God or Not.correct?
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inJESUS
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Actually Ed, yes this is very interesting topic…You and I and all on this forum can talk till tomorrow about where Ishamel settled and who he married to…but this is a waste of time for the following reasons:
Even if Ishmael settled in Mecca, made tawaf around the kaaba and kissed the balck stone,
Even if all Ishmaels’ descendants are Arabs
Even if Muhammad is indeed a descendant of Ishmael
It does NOT mean that his nations will be given a covenant, let alone a book. The one given the promise was Isaac and Jesus initiated the Messianic ETERNAL covenant to all INCLUDING Ishmael’s descendants, Muhammad, and any human who is to believe in Jesus. Since Muhammad inserted Jesus’ name in his book, who gave him the right to oppose the Messianic covenant by claiming that his covenant is the eternal one? surely not God.
Even if Ishmael settled in Mecca, made tawaf around the kaaba and kissed the balck stone,
Even if all Ishmaels’ descendants are Arabs
Even if Muhammad is indeed a descendant of Ishmael
It does NOT mean that his nations will be given a covenant, let alone a book. The one given the promise was Isaac and Jesus initiated the Messianic ETERNAL covenant to all INCLUDING Ishmael’s descendants, Muhammad, and any human who is to believe in Jesus. Since Muhammad inserted Jesus’ name in his book, who gave him the right to oppose the Messianic covenant by claiming that his covenant is the eternal one? surely not God.
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