Jesus, the Son of God

[jcrichton]

I don’t understand your dilemma. Jesus’ Body is raised and glorified, but he still has a human nature with human limitations. Will we understand everything that God does if we get to heaven? No. We will always have limitations, just as Jesus’ human nature will always have human limitations (in my opinion).

…I guess we are at different passages… Jesus walking through a wall or locked door or materializing in the middle of a room or appearing to several people at once or not being recognized by people who knew Him or vanishing instantaneously or walking about with open wounds… none of that seems to me to be due to human limitations…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[CatsAndDogs]

When do you suppose Jesus realized that He was the Son of God? Did it happen when He was just a child? Did it happen just before He began His ministry?

This is a subject I don’t ever remember thinking about much at all but I believe it is a very important subject.

I have my own theories, and that is all they are—theories so far—and I want to know what others think about it.

He never didn’t realize that He was God.

And He rather quickly realized that Mom was not God, but that she was not “chased about by satan” either.

And He later came to realize that Pop was rather a different character, being exceedingly strong but still chased around by satan.

And eventually He came to realize that other people were mostly like Pop, but few were as strong.

:shamrock2:

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Hi, AmbroseSJ!

I concur with you–I did not see this angle on the query… I simply thought that the question was directed from a human point of view: the development of Jesus as a human being as suggested by Scriptures; I can see how even this could be twisted about to mean that there would have been a time when Jesus was not cognizant of His Divinity.

Thank you for your clarification.

Maran atha!

Angel

Thanks Angel!

It’s not unnatural to have a PIOUS curiosity (as opposed to a vain one) with respect to these details of the life of Jesus, or the Holy Family, or the Apostles etc. The Scriptures and Holy Mother Church are silent on these matters, so where does one turn?

I don’t see that there is any difficulty with pious readings from the writings of various visionaries, particularly those that have been canonized, and/or those that have the approbation of the Church as being safe, and appropriate for pious reading.

I know I have some of my own favorites (which tend to be very old, and very highly recommended by the church) that seem very believable and even probable to me.

 

[jcrichton]

Thanks Angel!

It’s not unnatural to have a PIOUS curiosity (as opposed to a vain one) with respect to these details of the life of Jesus, or the Holy Family, or the Apostles etc. The Scriptures and Holy Mother Church are silent on these matters, so where does one turn?

I don’t see that there is any difficulty with pious readings from the writings of various visionaries, particularly those that have been canonized, and/or those that have the approbation of the Church as being safe, and appropriate for pious reading.

I know I have some of my own favorites (which tend to be very old, and very highly recommended by the church) that seem very believable and even probable to me.

Hi, Ambrose!

I think that that is a valid distinction–sadly more and more we find “Catholics” and other “Christians” actively engaged in what amounts to a form of defamation of Scriptures, the Church, the various personages in the Holy Bible, and even God (in all three Divine Persons)–usually, their excuse is “deepening” their understanding of God/Holy Scriptures… I love St. Peter’s and St. Jude’s response such as they are:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell…; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people,… 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(…)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” (2 St. Peter 2:1-22)

8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. 12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. (St. Jude 1:8-16)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Old_Scholar]

Hi, Ambrose!

I think that that is a valid distinction–sadly more and more we find “Catholics” and other “Christians” actively engaged in what amounts to a form of defamation of Scriptures, the Church, the various personages in the Holy Bible, and even God (in all three Divine Persons)–usually, their excuse is “deepening” their understanding of God/Holy Scriptures… I love St. Peter’s and St. Jude’s response such as they are:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell…; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people,… 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(…)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” (2 St. Peter 2:1-22)

8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. 12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. (St. Jude 1:8-16)

Maran atha!

Angel

Aren’t we supposed to give a link for “cut n’ paste”?

 

[jcrichton]

Aren’t we supposed to give a link for “cut n’ paste”?

…sorry, since I am always in a hurry I usually omit to cite the source:

Here’s St. Peter’s quote:

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31

Here’s St. Jude’s:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%201:8-16;&version=31;

Note, also, that due to space constraints I employ the ellipsis (…) in order to denote an excluded text, within the quoted material, which was removed to allow for the restriction on the number of characters that we are able to employ when posting; when possible I shorten my response; if I am still over the limit, I then shorten the material to which I am responding or the Biblical text (choosing the segments which are not crucial to the point I am attempting to make).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Lisa44]

I wonder why some eastern Christians, like in Ethiopia, think his nature is only divine?

 

[SeanTom]

When did Jesus know of his full divinity?

From reviewing several scripture readings, it was determined by most Theologians that He did not know of his FULL divinity until His resurrection.

For instance:

John 2:4: “Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come‘.” (In John 13:1: Although Jesus said that He knew ‘his hour had come to pass from this world to the Father‘, doesn’t mean that He was aware of His FULL divinity at this time.)

Mark 14:36: “He (Jesus) said, ‘Abba, Father, all things are possible to you. Take this cup away from me,….’”. Jesus saying “all things are possible to you” is suggesting that “all things were not yet possible to Him”.

Mark 15: “Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus may not have known, at this time, that He was to be the Savior of the world. After he ascended into Heaven, He then knew that He was one with God and took on his father’s FULL divine nature.

There may be other scripture writings on this, but it is believed that, although Jesus could do miracles and that He came into our world to preach the good news of His Father and laid down the rules necessary to obtain everlasting life in Heaven - He may not have known that He, at this time, was to be the Savior of the world - that He alone could forgive all sins made by mankind.

Please know that the above writing is what I conceived it to mean after reading through scripture, using my own intellect (whatever that may be worth) and by reading the writings of some Theologians on this subject.

Lastly, Jesus always was, is, and always will be God to me. Jesus was the Son of God from the beginning of time, but did not come to our earth until he was born of Mary and received His human nature for the purpose of giving us His Father’s teachings. The belief of when He received His full divinity is not an issue that would effect my faith one way or another.

 

[jcrichton]

I wonder why some eastern Christians, like in Ethiopia, think his nature is only divine?

Hi, Lisa!

…don’t know–I am not versed in the writings of the early Church Fathers (or is it doctors) and have not researched the issue… but I suspect that it is similar to the reason why the Eastern Church separated from the Western (Roman Catholic): a distinct view point.

If you do not get a reply in the near future, PM me and I’ll do some research on it.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

When did Jesus know of his full divinity?

…it was determined by most Theologians that He did not know of his FULL divinity until His resurrection.

Hi, Sean Tom!

…though I am not a theologian, I can tell you that these “scholars” are over-thinking it!:

…John 2:4: “Jesus said… My hour has not yet come‘.” )

…this very example demonstrates that they only see what they have preconcieved as the answer… Jesus is making a direct statement about His Ministry; Mary ignores His seeming nonchalant attitude and commands the servants to gather water… unless Jesus was constantly performing “tricks” for her, how do you suppose that Mary knew that Jesus could turn water into wine? It would seem, according to these theologians, that Mary had more knowledge about Jesus’ Divinity than Jesus, the Divine Person Himself, did–is that possible?

(In John 13:1: Although Jesus said that He knew… doesn’t mean that He was aware of His FULL divinity at this time.)

…this hour and the above time are similar in nature but they speak of two distinct event: the first speaks of His Crucifixion and the latter speaks of His return to the Father–Jesus was fully aware of what these two elements meant; on the latter He tells the Father:

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

…clearly this attests to Jesus being fully aware of His Divinity!

Mark 14:36: “He (Jesus) said, ‘Abba, Father, all things are possible to you. Take this cup away from me,….’”. is suggesting that “all things were not yet possible to Him”.

Yet other passages demonstrate that Jesus is aware of His Divinity:

John 16:15
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

John 16:30
Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

Mark 15: “Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus may not have known, at this time, that He was to be the Savior of the world… After he ascended… He was one with God and took on his father’s FULL divine nature.

…already answered by St. John 17:5; but here’s St. Paul’s take:

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(Philippians 2:5-6)

Jesus also stated that He and the Father are One; that He is in the Father and that the Father is in Him. The masters of the Law and Pharisees also understood this:

20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” 21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (St. Luke 5:20-21)

31The Jews then took up stones to stone him. 32Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? 33The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. (St. John 10:31-33–Douay-Rheims)

…it is believed that… He may not have known that He, at this time, was to be the Savior of the world - that He alone could forgive all sins made by mankind.

Please know that the above writing is what I conceived it to mean after reading through scripture, using my own intellect (…) and by reading the writings of some Theologians…

Lastly, Jesus always was, is, and always will be God to me. Jesus was the Son of God from the beginning of time, but did not come to our earth until he was born of Mary and received His human nature for the purpose of giving us His Father’s teachings. The belief of when He received His full divinity is not an issue that would effect my faith one way or another.

One final thought:

4Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. 6…”

7…Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John…: Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10This is the one about whom it is written:
" ‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’ 11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear. (St. Matthew 11:7-15)

16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (St. Luke 4:16-21)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[SeanTom]

Above points well taken and appreciated. One day all will be shown to us and understood. In the meantime, we humans just do the best we can.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Hi, Sean Tom!

…though I am not a theologian, I can tell you that these “scholars” are over-thinking it!:

…this very example demonstrates that they only see what they have preconcieved as the answer… Jesus is making a direct statement about His Ministry; Mary ignores His seeming nonchalant attitude and commands the servants to gather water… unless Jesus was constantly performing “tricks” for her, how do you suppose that Mary knew that Jesus could turn water into wine? It would seem, according to these theologians, that Mary had more knowledge about Jesus’ Divinity than Jesus, the Divine Person Himself, did–is that possible?

There is no indication that Mary knew water would be turned into wine.

…this hour and the above time are similar in nature but they speak of two distinct event: the first speaks of His Crucifixion and the latter speaks of His return to the Father–Jesus was fully aware of what these two elements meant; on the latter He tells the Father:

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

…clearly this attests to Jesus being fully aware of His Divinity!

It is clear Jesus knew He was “special” but did He know He was God? I don’t think the Scriptures reveal that at all.

Yet other passages demonstrate that Jesus is aware of His Divinity:

John 16:15
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

John 16:30
Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

…already answered by St. John 17:5; but here’s St. Paul’s take:

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(Philippians 2:5-6)

Paul is saying Christ did not know He was God.

Jesus also stated that He and the Father are One; that He is in the Father and that the Father is in Him. The masters of the Law and Pharisees also understood this:

20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” 21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (St. Luke 5:20-21)

31The Jews then took up stones to stone him. 32Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? 33The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. (St. John 10:31-33–Douay-Rheims)

Would the Jews have stoned God? Certainly not. They didn’t believe He was God. At this time He was beginning to realize His full power but even on the cross did not fully understand He was equal with God; or else He would not have needed God to take away this thing He was about to do.

One final thought:

4Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. 6…”

7…Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John…: Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10This is the one about whom it is written:
" ‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’ 11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15He who has ears, let him hear. (St. Matthew 11:7-15)

16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (St. Luke 4:16-21)

Maran atha!

Angel

It is clear Jesus is saying that “the Spirit of the Lord is on Me.” He says He was “sent”, etc. Perhaps it was the resurrection when he returned to being “fully God” that He realized just Who He was. It is obvious the Apostles didn’t know. They paid lip service to the thought that He was the Son of God but look what happened. They deserted Him and Peter even denied three times that he had even known him. Was that proof that the Apostles knew Who He was? Certainly not. If it was not for the resurrection, Christianity would have died right there.

Personal note: Your research shows exactly why forums such as this are here. Questions like this make us think and when we think we study and I believe that is very beneficial to all Christians. Good work!

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Old Scholar, you say in your public profile that you are a non-Catholic and a non-Protestant. Do you consider yourself a bible-only, private-judgment Christian?

In any event Angel’s reply was spot on!

 

[NotWorthy]

Old Scholar, you say in your public profile that you are a non-Catholic and a non-Protestant. Do you consider yourself a bible-only, private-judgment Christian?

In any event Angel’s reply was spot on!

OS, at least a few months ago, is Missouri Synod Lutheran. And he knows his bible very well.

 

[NotWorthy]

There is no indication that Mary knew water would be turned into wine. that seems to be correct. It seems that the only thing Mary knew was that her Son would fix the couple’s dilemma.

It is clear Jesus knew He was “special” but did He know He was God? I don’t think the Scriptures reveal that at all.I think He reveals it in the scene where he tells the rich man, “Why do you call me good…?”

Tonight I’ll locate some information on this scene that explains my stance.

 

[NotWorthy]

Personal note: Your research shows exactly why forums such as this are here. Questions like this make us think and when we think we study and I believe that is very beneficial to all Christians. Good work!

Well, you were definitely right on this point, my brother! And I’ve thought about this from time to time for the last few hours…

… and then it hit me.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Child, your sins are forgiven." Now some of the scribes were sitting there asking themselves, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?”

Was Jesus ignorant of the fact that God alone forgives our sins? Or did He know that He was God?

A violent squall came up and waves were breaking over the boat, so that it was already filling up. Jesus was in the stern, asleep on a cushion. They woke him and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” He woke up, rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Quiet! Be still!” The wind ceased and there was great calm.

This incident sounds rather familiar to Psalm 107:28-29

In their distress they cried to the LORD, who brought them out of their peril, Hushed the storm to a murmur; the waves of the sea were stilled.

And Psalm 89:9-10 tells us Who can still the waters:

LORD, God of hosts, who is like you? Mighty LORD, your loyalty is always present. You rule the raging sea; you still its swelling waves.

And about that “Walking on Water” trick:

About the fourth watch of the night, he came toward them walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them. But when they saw him walking on the sea, they thought it was a ghost and cried out. They had all seen him and were terrified. But at once he spoke with them, “Take courage, it is I, do not be afraid!” He got into the boat with them and the wind died down. They were (completely) astounded.

This sounds rather familiar to Job 9:8 & 11

He (God) alone stretches out the heavens and treads upon the crests of the sea…***
…Should he come near me, I see him not; should he pass by, I am not aware of him***;

It would seem to me that either:
a) Jesus knew that He was God.
or
b) Jesus was ignorant of Scripture.

Now, regarding b), do you want to go there?!?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Old Scholar, you say in your public profile that you are a non-Catholic and a non-Protestant. Do you consider yourself a bible-only, private-judgment Christian?

In any event Angel’s reply was spot on!

I believe my signature explains it quite well…

 

[Old_Scholar]

Well, you were definitely right on this point, my brother! And I’ve thought about this from time to time for the last few hours…

… and then it hit me.
Was Jesus ignorant of the fact that God alone forgives our sins? Or did He know that He was God?

This incident sounds rather familiar to Psalm 107:28-29

And Psalm 89:9-10 tells us Who can still the waters:
And about that “Walking on Water” trick: This sounds rather familiar to Job 9:8 & 11
It would seem to me that either:
a) Jesus knew that He was God.
or
b) Jesus was ignorant of Scripture.

Now, regarding b), do you want to go there?!?

The question isn’t whether Jesus knew Scripture, He had many years to learn Scripture and could probably recite it all.

I agree that it is apparent that He learned more and more as time went along about His divinity. The incidents you relate are after His baptism by John I believe.

I don’t believe Jesus Knew He was God for many years as I stated before. I still believe it came to him slowly and as soon as it was so clear to Him, He began the ministry and learned more and more as He went along. It is difficult to explain the long period, of many years, prior to beginning the ministry. Had He known He was God, He would probably have begun it much sooner, perhaps as early as 18 or 19 years of age. In addition to that, had He known He was God, He would not have expected the end to come soon as He related to the apostles. He continually deferred to “the Father”.

After three years with Him, it is clear the Apostles never believed He was God until the resurrection. The remarkable change they made from cowards and denying Christ and then teaching as they did, even being martyred, shows they had a transformation.

 

[jcrichton]

Q:

O P by jc
Hi, Sean Tom!
…“scholars” are over-thinking it!:

You truly believe that Mary wanted the servants to get jars of water because Jesus was thirsty?

Q:
O P by jc…
John 17:5
…glorify me…

…Jesus being fully aware of His Divinity!

It is clear Jesus knew He was “special” but did He know He was God? I don’t think the Scriptures reveal that at all.

Please explain what Jesus is stating.

Q:
O P by jc…

5… 6Who, being in very nature God… (Philippians 2:5-6)

Paul is saying Christ did not know He was God.

…your analytical powers astaund me!

Q:
O P by jc
…The masters of the Law and Pharisees also understood this: (St. Luke 5:20-21), …maketh thyself God. (St. John 10:31-33…)

Would the Jews have stoned God? Certainly not. They didn’t believe He was God. At this time He was beginning to realize His full power but even on the cross did not fully understand He was equal with God; or else He would not have needed God to take away this thing He was about to do.

I did not say the Jews believed Jesus was God; I said that they understood that Jesus claimed that He is God; your desire to view Him as not cognizant of His Divinity demonstrates that your understanding is as that of the Jews; it seems that you view the Gospels as a chronological outline of Jesus’ Life and Being… they are not!

Unlike Jesus’ contemporaries, you still have a chance to Know Him, if only you would allow the Holy Spirit to enlighten you… I ask you to reread the Holy Scriptures without any preconceived design… allow the Word to flow within you, freely… without weighting down God’s Revelations with human intellectualism.

Q:
O P by jc…
(St. Matthew 11:7-15), (St. Luke 4:16-21)

Maran atha!

Angel

It is clear Jesus is saying that “the Spirit of the Lord is on Me.” He says He was “sent”, etc. Perhaps it was the resurrection when he returned to being “fully God” that He realized just Who He was. It is obvious the Apostles didn’t know. They paid lip service to the thought that He was the Son of God but look what happened. They deserted Him and Peter even denied three times that he had even known him. Was that proof that the Apostles knew Who He was? Certainly not. If it was not for the resurrection, Christianity would have died right there.

I understand your concern with Biblical “language…” sometimes it feels like that quote from the godfather “…they keep on pulling me back;” just when you begin to think you got the answer, another passage/verse seems to obliterate the deduction…

…but if we were to pay attention to such accidents of grammar we would be deep-sixing ourselves all of the time…

…from your deduction “sent” seems to imply that Jesus was lacking something (Divinity); yet, if we were to allow that as the correct conclusion, then we must believe that Christ is more powerful than the Father since only by His return to Him can the other Paraclete be sent; we would also run into a myriad of problems since Scriptures are riddled with just such language.

…as for the disciples… they were men, as we are, and they lived their Faith with the same notions that we do; their experience with Christ should have alloted them a deeper Faith; but, just as the scene at Emmaus, had the veil been completely removed several of the prophecies would not have come to fruition, that would have made God a liar!

I agree with you that the Resurrection was important, but it was only part of the Salvific Plan, just as Jesus’ Appearances and Ascension were; conversely, the persecution of the early Church was also important as it tested the resolve of the Believers and it provide a mechanism for the propagation of the Faith.

Personal note: Your research shows exactly why forums such as this are here. Questions like this make us think and when we think we study and I believe that is very beneficial to all Christians. Good work!

The only problem I find is that much of the time we (Catholics and non-Catholic Christians alike) fight the revelations we are granted and we become combatants instead of allies; we listen to the Word only partially and, as we strive to please man rather than God, much valuable time is spent on unproductive arguments and speculations.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

OS, at least a few months ago, is Missouri Synod Lutheran. And he knows his bible very well.

…do you mean he knows the Bible or *his *Bible?

Maran atha!

Angel