Jesus, the Son of God

[eric_sammons]

Old Scholar,

He said and acted as if He was the “Son of God” but then we are all considered “Sons of God” at salvation.

But as I showed from the examples before, he acted as much more than a “Son of God” in the generic sense. He acted as a Son of God who had the same authority and power as God Himself. Clearly he believed he had this power and authority.

Would Jesus have asked His Father to “remove this cup from me,” had He known He was God?

Again, you are falling into the fallacy of thinking, “if I were God, I would…” From the passages I gave before - plus many others I didn’t mention - Jesus clearly believed he was divine during the public ministry, which includes his agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. So when we see him say, “remove this cup from me” we have to reconcile that statement with the other statements he made that indicate he was self-aware of his divinity. We can’t just say “he didn’t know he was God,” because that contradicts the other evidence at hand. So we have to ask, “If he knew he was divine, why did he ask the cup to be removed?” The answer is the mystery of the Incarnation: Jesus was fully God and fully man. Name one man who would not prefer an easier route to a harder one. If you tell me that I can work for 10 years to earn a million dollars or you will just give it to me, no strings attached, which do you think I’ll choose? Jesus, being man, wished to avoid suffering - if it didn’t go against the Father’s will. This doesn’t diminish his divinity; it just highlights his humanity. And in the end, he chose to be obedient to the Father even in the face of untold suffering.

The beauty of the Incarnation is that God didn’t just go through the motions of being man, he really became man. When his friends deserted him at his hour of need, he really felt betrayed. This does not mean that he was not self-aware of his divinity, it just means that he truly became a man like us.

One cannot simply pick individual verses from the Scriptures and make a thesis. The overwhelming evidence is that Jesus knew of his divinity during his public ministry, so if certain verses appear to our own interpretation to contradict this idea, then we clearly are misinterpreting the text.

Wouldn’t it be great if we had been given more information about His early years?

I guess it would if it would prevent people from misinterpreting the evidence we already do have.

But if the Holy Spirit doesn’t think it necessary for us to know the details, then I see no reason to question that decision.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Wouldn’t it be great if we had been given more information about His early years?

Couple things:

Consider where the information we DO have comes from. The Holy Church of Jesus Christ. The Apostles and Disciples who were foundation stones of the early Church, wrote some few things down. But compared to what they witnessed and what they actually knew, it was just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Second, how did Jesus, the Son of God, the very Cornerstone of this new Church, instruct his Apostles and Disciples to spread and build up his new Church? Did he say write down everything I said and did and publish those writings to the end of the earth? NO. We know from Scripture itself that he told them to go themselves, Baptizing in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, to the ends of the earth.

This tells us that Scripture is only a PART of the revelation of God. The full revelation from God can only come from His Church that he himself established.

That is why Bible-only Christians are always forced to make stuff up and come to wrong conclusions based on the insufficiency of Scripture alone.

Only within the Church can scripture be made clear and all of God’s revelation be revealed.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Couple things:

Consider where the information we DO have comes from. The Holy Church of Jesus Christ. The Apostles and Disciples who were foundation stones of the early Church, wrote some few things down. But compared to what they witnessed and what they actually knew, it was just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Second, how did Jesus, the Son of God, the very Cornerstone of this new Church, instruct his Apostles and Disciples to spread and build up his new Church? Did he say write down everything I said and did and publish those writings to the end of the earth? NO. We know from Scripture itself that he told them to go themselves, Baptizing in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, to the ends of the earth.

This tells us that Scripture is only a PART of the revelation of God. The full revelation from God can only come from His Church that he himself established.

That is why Bible-only Christians are always forced to make stuff up and come to wrong conclusions based on the insufficiency of Scripture alone.

Only within the Church can scripture be made clear and all of God’s revelation be revealed.

I find it odd that you would be accusing Bible only Christians of making things up…!

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I find it odd that you would be accusing Bible only Christians of making things up…!

Ah yes. Bible only Christians pride themselves in never making stuff up. They “fill in” the blanks with stuff nevertheless, even though it isn’t actually said in Scripture.

You say that Jesus didn’t fully know his Divinity until the Resurrection, or the Baptism, or whatever, even though there is NOTHING in Scripture that says this explicitly. Therefore you made it up.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Ah yes. Bible only Christians pride themselves in never making stuff up. They “fill in” the blanks with stuff nevertheless, even though it isn’t actually said in Scripture.

You say that Jesus didn’t fully know his Divinity until the Resurrection, or the Baptism, or whatever, even though there is NOTHING in Scripture that says this explicitly. Therefore you made it up.

If you will only read what I write, you will find that I said it is my opinion from what I read that perhaps Jesus gradually found out that He was the Messiah and then divine. Have you seen me write that as a matter of fact?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

If you will only read what I write, you will find that I said it is my opinion from what I read that perhaps Jesus gradually found out that He was the Messiah and then divine. Have you seen me write that as a matter of fact?

But isn’t your opinion based on stuff you consider factual?

 

[Old_Scholar]

But isn’t your opinion based on stuff you consider factual?

My opinion is based on the only infallible thing we have, Scripture. If I am wrong, then please show me where…

 

[NotWorthy]

My opinion is based on the only infallible thing we have, Scripture. If I am wrong, then please show me where…

And see, our opinions are based on how we understand the hypostatic union in conjunction with Holy Scripture. In order for your opinion to be correct, Jesus’ divine nature would have had to have been silent and “hiding in the corners” for His early years.

I don’t buy it.

 

[SeanTom]

Read all of Psalms 22 which may shed some light on this topic.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

My opinion is based on the only infallible thing we have, Scripture. If I am wrong, then please show me where…

Your opinion based on Holy Scripture can never be proved wrong (or right) as it will remain forever an opinion, and nothing more.

But the thing is, what good are so many opinions? Is revelation given to stir up opinions? Does God give us revelations for a purpose, or just as a puzzle for his more clever creatures?

Would not God have given us His revelation to help us to find His Truth?

The Scriptures (in the Old Testament the Jews held the keys to the interpretation of their Scriptures) Can you imagine the folly of the Romans trying to understand the Old TEstament without the aid of the Jewish Church? Remember how the Magi had to come to Jerusalem to inquire of Herod’s scribes for the location of where the Messiah would be born? Surely they had some of the old Prophets’ writings, yet their own interpretation was insufficient.

The New Covenant is not any different. God continues to shepherd his people using his own chosen ministers. The New Testament is written by those ministers, and continues to be taught by the lawful successors to those ministers. God’s revelations are and always have been about people and direct contact, not about books and opinions.

 

[eric_sammons]

Old Scholar,

My opinion is based on the only infallible thing we have, Scripture. If I am wrong, then please show me where…

I believe I have shown you, from Scripture, where you are wrong. Could you show me the errors in my interpretation about those passages in Matthew I mentioned - the ones that show that Jesus was completely aware of his divinity during his public ministry. When I originally posted that, you said it supported your idea that he became self-aware at the baptism, but you previously said he became self-aware at the resurrection and then later said that he wasn’t aware at the Garden of Gethsemane, which occurred after the baptism. I’m not trying to be antagonistic, but I’m unclear as to how you can hold to all these positions at the same time. Those passages I mentioned contradict your claim that Jesus wasn’t self-aware at the Garden of Gethsemane, but you have not tried to explain the contradiction.

I respect your desire to submit to the authority of Scripture; that is a good start. But, with all due respect, I haven’t seen you do that in this thread. It appears, at least from my vantage-point, that you are trying to get Scripture to agree with your previously-held belief.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Old Scholar,

I believe I have shown you, from Scripture, where you are wrong. Could you show me the errors in my interpretation about those passages in Matthew I mentioned - the ones that show that Jesus was completely aware of his divinity during his public ministry. When I originally posted that, you said it supported your idea that he became self-aware at the baptism, but you previously said he became self-aware at the resurrection and then later said that he wasn’t aware at the Garden of Gethsemane, which occurred after the baptism. I’m not trying to be antagonistic, but I’m unclear as to how you can hold to all these positions at the same time. Those passages I mentioned contradict your claim that Jesus wasn’t self-aware at the Garden of Gethsemane, but you have not tried to explain the contradiction.

I respect your desire to submit to the authority of Scripture; that is a good start. But, with all due respect, I haven’t seen you do that in this thread. It appears, at least from my vantage-point, that you are trying to get Scripture to agree with your previously-held belief.

I believe your “self-aware” means something different than mine. I believe I have stated what I believe quite well. Christ became more “self-aware” as time went along. I don’t remember the Scriptures you said you posted that proved His divinity prior to the resurrection.

 

[Ben_Masada]

When do you suppose Jesus realized that He was the Son of God? Did it happen when He was just a child? Did it happen just before He began His ministry?

This is a subject I don’t ever remember thinking about much at all but I believe it is a very important subject.

I have my own theories, and that is all they are—theories so far—and I want to know what others think about it.

---

Jesus never realized that he was the son of god because he was Jewish, and he knew that in Judaism there is no such a thing, possible only in Greek Mythology. The idea was fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. When Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus had been the son of God, he nearly got killed by the Jews for preaching idolatry.
Acts 9:29)

Ben:

 

[AmbroseSJ]

---

Jesus never realized that he was the son of god because he was Jewish, and he knew that in Judaism there is no such a thing, possible only in Greek Mythology. The idea was fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. When Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus had been the son of God, he nearly got killed by the Jews for preaching idolatry.
Acts 9:29)

Ben:

2nd Temple Jews were expecting the Messiah. That the Messiah would be the Son of God, was not expected, but was prophesied. The coming of the Messiah was the greatest revelation ever given to mankind by the One God. Judaism could not contain this new Revelation. It was new wine that could not be put in the old wineskin.

 

[Ben_Masada]

2nd Temple Jews were expecting the Messiah. That the Messiah would be the Son of God, was not expected, but was prophesied. The coming of the Messiah was the greatest revelation ever given to mankind by the One God. Judaism could not contain this new Revelation. It was new wine that could not be put in the old wineskin.

---

Do you know something? You are right about being the Messiah the son of God, that he was prophesied, and I am going to prove to you that you are right.

Let me start with Isaiah 53. You do believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, don’t you? I believe you do.
Now, would you please read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21 and 45:4.
Isaiah in those quotations identifies that Servant with Israel by name.

Now, let me prove to you that he is also the son of God. Would you please read Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1? In those
quotations you will have the Almighty Himself calling Israel My son. “Let My son go so that he may serve Me.” Then, “When Israel was a child I loved him and out of Egypt I called My son.”
See? I have proved that you are right about being the Messiah the son of God. Now, what do you have to say about this?

Ben:

 

[jcrichton]

If God could create something out of nothing, why would Mary think that Jesus needed water to make wine. I have no doubt that Mary understand (to some level, as much as her human-ness would allow) that her Son was God. After the Annunciation, I would imagine our Holy Mother would have scoured the Law and the Prophets to understand what she was undertaking.

But, I can only assume that she knew that, somehow, her Son would solve the couple’s dilemma.

I believe that my original statement was not as clear as I thought it would be… my attempt was to demonstrate that Mary knew that Jesus was God; I thought that it would be reasonable to understand that if a mere human had graspped the significance of Jesus’ Divinity, it would logically follow that Jesus Himself had to have known…

Many presume that Jesus had to go through some sort of human method of reason and understanding… they completely ignore the Holy Spirit’s intervention and the fact that Jesus never stopped being Divine!

The issue with the first miracle was only an attempt to bring us to the very scene where Mary, without the slightest doubt, knew that Yeshua had the Power to produce wine from nothing or, as on the actual case, transform water into wine. Note what the Scriptures attest:

This was the first of Jesus’ signs: it was at Cana in Galilee. He revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him. (St. John 2:11–NJB)

Mary already Believed!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, I understand that I disagree with… well… nearly all of Old Scholars interpretations… including the thought that Jesus didn’t know that his human soul was fused with his Divinity until the Holy Spirit came down… as if the Holy Spirit and Jesus could ever be separated in the first place.

But I respect and admire his dedication to learning the Scriptures. And, of course (warning… “dig” coming up!), I’d love to see his desire to learn more about the bridegroom equaled by his desire to learn more about the bride!

I am afraid that you are waay more generous with hope and expectations than I… but I’m working on it! :hammering:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[rookieonedge]

It seems apparent to me that Jesus knew He was the Son of God at least by the age of 12 when He was “lost” in the Temple. I believe that He set up this incident to demonstrate that He actually knew His Sonship with the Father. People tend to separate His divinity and humanity, but I think both are interwoven so that even as a baby, He understood His mission. I read something about that in Anne Catherine Emmerich’s book and perhaps in Mary of Agreda as well. The scene in the Temple is to let us know that He knows.

“And it came to pass, that after three days they found Him in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions (which I’m sure He already knew the answer to but was using that method to open up Scripture for them). And all that heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.” (Luke 2: 46-47).

 

[jcrichton]

What Scriptures did I contradict? Could you list them please?

The Apostles didn’t believe Jesus was God. They continually questioned Him and it is clear they wanted special places from Him should He be telling the truth but IF they had really believed Him, would they have ran like scared rabbits when He was taken prisoner? Peter said He was the Son of God but didn’t realize that He was God or he would have acted differently perhaps. It is obvious they never believed He would be resurrected or else they would have remained faithful. Would Peter have **denied Him, and three times **at that, if he had really believed He was God?

Look at what happened after the resurrection. They no longer had any doubts and the rest of their lives were spent preaching the Gospel as I have stated before. That was the big transformation they made but it only came after the resurrection.

I await your list of contradictions…

When we read the passages in the Sacred Scriptures we tend to view them from our own perspectives… we miss or void some seemingly unimportant words and we come to conclusions that are not totally correct:

27 because the Father himself loves you for loving me, and believing that I came from God.

29 His disciples said, ‘Now you are speaking plainly and not using veiled language.
30 Now we see that you know everything and need not wait for questions to be put into words; because of this we believe that you came from God.’
31 Jesus answered them: Do you believe at last?
32 Listen; the time will come – indeed it has come already – when you are going to be scattered, each going his own way and leaving me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have hardship, but be courageous: I have conquered the world. (St. John 16:27, 29-33–NJB)

(See also St. John 12:42; 17:8)

Interestingly enough St. John 16:27, 29-33 directly answers your queries: Jesus states that they believe that He came from the Father; Jesus’ disciples declare that they finally understand Who He Is; yet, Jesus warns them that they will desert Him; have you noticed how many people around you (and in the world, for that matter) claim to “Believe” yet some, if not many, are persuaded to abandon God and His Way by the slightest temptations or difficulties? Though Jesus’ warning comes with encouragement, sadly, both His direct disciples and His future disciples fail to heed the warning and comprehend His revelation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I really believe Jesus is God and I deny him every day in my actions.

Exactly! …I just gave a lengthier version of your reply… consider too that we have nearly two thousand years of Church History and Sacred Writings and Sacred Traditions… and we still get it wrong!

Maran atha!

Angel