I fully agree with you… I only want to add that at Pentecost the disciples did not only receive enlightenment but they were empowered by the Holy Spirit ("…He will Baptize in the Holy Spirit…"); it is this new Baptism that allow Jesus’ disciples to become active heralds of God’s Kingdom.
I have had similar thoughts on the age requirements… after reading your post I searched through the web… but I may not know the right formula to get a direct answer… here’s one of the places I checked (several spoke on similar educational requirements)–it seems to indicate that the candidate must be, if not in his late twenties, in his early thirties:
The problem with Scholars is that they remove the Holy Spirit from Scriptures… so everything must be disclosed through human intellect…
But how do you know yourself only partially? How does God’s Divinity become limited by human awareness or intellect?
Consider also that Jesus is the son of a carpenter–Joseph was not a wealthy person–I doubt very much that even the best skilled carpenters would be living it up in an empoverished town as Nazareth… so when Jesus is found engaging the Temple’s teachers His abilities could not have come from an experience with the best schools or tutors. This is the only passage, prior to His public Ministry, about Jesus that reveals that His Wisdom is beyond His years (chronological account after His Incarnation).
Ben, so the rest of the Apostles and the rest of Jesus’ disciples were making things up too?
Jesus never realized that he was the son of god because he was Jewish, and he knew that in Judaism there is no such a thing, possible only in Greek Mythology. The idea was fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. When Paul showed up in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus had been the son of God, he nearly got killed by the Jews for preaching idolatry.
Acts 9:29)
Ben:
So you do not yet know the I AM?
Do you know something? You are right about being the Messiah the son of God, that he was prophesied, and I am going to prove to you that you are right.
Let me start with Isaiah 53. You do believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, don’t you? I believe you do.
Now, would you please read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21 and 45:4.
Isaiah in those quotations identifies that Servant with Israel by name.
Now, let me prove to you that he is also the son of God. Would you please read Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1? In those
quotations you will have the Almighty Himself calling Israel My son. “Let My son go so that he may serve Me.” Then, “When Israel was a child I loved him and out of Egypt I called My son.”
See? I have proved that you are right about being the Messiah the son of God. Now, what do you have to say about this?
Ben:
So you do not yet know the I AM?
QUOTE]
Oh yes, my friend. We know Him so well that what you claim to know has come to you because of us, the Jews. If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire; or perhaps a block of wood in the shape of a demon.
If it were not for us, you would not have a Bible to believe in it as the Word of God. If were not for us, you would never have a Messiah to claim him as your redeemer. If it were not for us, you would never know the meaning of Monotheism.
Ben:
Ben you are correct up to a point. However, we the Gentiles came to know God through our belief in the Son. We certainly owe a certain debt to the ancient Patriarchs, the Hebrews, all the way up to second temple Judaism. They pre-figured, and prophesied the coming of the Redeemer and Messiah. They were a further Testimony to the Truth of the Messiah’s coming. They were the chosen vessel of God, for his divine Revelations, in preparation for the Messiah.
John 14:
Ben you are correct up to a point. However, we the Gentiles came to know God through our belief in the Son. We certainly owe a certain debt to the ancient Patriarchs, the Hebrews, all the way up to second temple Judaism. They pre-figured, and prophesied the coming of the Redeemer and Messiah. They were a further Testimony to the Truth of the Messiah’s coming. They were the chosen vessel of God, for his divine Revelations, in preparation for the Messiah.
But it is too much to say Judaism gave us Monotheism or our knowledge of God. All has come from God himself.
I meant no slight to the importance of Judaism. It is true what you say up to a point. All I meant to say was that Judaism is not responsible for Christianity, God is, or more precisely, the Messiah or Son of God is.
Ben: Sorry Ambrose, but there is no other way for the Truth to be said. You know very well that your Bible with all the knowledge about the True God you have acquired could never have come to you if it were not for us, the Jewish People.
Why is it so hard to recognize this truth and give the credit to whom the credit is due? Jesus was Jewish. If it were not for us, your wouldn’t have him. How else can say the obvious?
Ben:
I know where you’re coming from, my brother. We Catholics have to remind our Protestant brothers that they wouldn’t have the bible if it weren’t for us Catholics.
Ben: Sorry Ambrose, but there is no other way for the Truth to be said. You know very well that your Bible with all the knowledge about the True God you have acquired could never have come to you if it were not for us, the Jewish People.
Why is it so hard to recognize this truth and give the credit to whom the credit is due? Jesus was Jewish. If it were not for us, your wouldn’t have him. How else can say the obvious?
Ben:
jcrichton;4711640:
…so the whole thing about Yahweh God is immaterial?So you do not yet know the I AM?
QUOTE]
Oh yes, my friend. We know Him so well that what you claim to know has come to you because of us, the Jews. If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire; or perhaps a block of wood in the shape of a demon.
If it were not for us, you would not have a Bible to believe in it as the Word of God. If were not for us, you would never have a Messiah to claim him as your redeemer. If it were not for us, you would never know the meaning of Monotheism.
Ben:
Though it is true that Salvation is from the Jews, it is not the Jews who make Salvation possible… this Salvation was granted by Yahweh God and it was promised through Abraham waaay back when:
4 'For my part, this is my covenant with you: you will become the father of many nations. 5 And you are no longer to be called Abram; your name is to be Abraham, for I am making you father of many nations. 6 I shall make you exceedingly fertile. I shall make you into nations, and your issue will be kings. (Genesis 17:4-6–NJB)
1 Then what do we say about Abraham, the ancestor from whom we are descended physically? 2 If Abraham had been justified because of what he had done, then he would have had something to boast about. But not before God: 3 does not scripture say: Abraham put his faith in God and this was reckoned to him as uprightness? 4 Now, when someone works, the wages for this are not considered as a favour but as due;
5 however, when someone, without working, puts faith in the one who justifies the godless, it is this faith that is reckoned as uprightness. 6 David, too, says the same: he calls someone blessed if God attributes uprightness to that person, apart from any action undertaken:
7 How blessed are those whose offence is forgiven, whose sin is blotted out. 8 How blessed are those to whom the Lord imputes no guilt.
9 Is this blessing only for the circumcised, or is it said of the uncircumcised as well? Well, we said of Abraham that his faith was reckoned to him as uprightness. 10 Now how did this come about? When he was already circumcised, or before he had been circumcised? Not when he had been circumcised, but while he was still uncircumcised; 11 and circumcision was given to him later, as a sign and a guarantee that the faith which he had while still uncircumcised was reckoned to him as uprightness. In this way, Abraham was to be the ancestor of all believers who are uncircumcised, so that they might be reckoned as upright; 12 as well as the ancestor of those of the circumcision who not only have their circumcision but who also follow our ancestor Abraham along the path of faith that he trod before he was circumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham and his descendants that he should inherit the world was not through the Law, but through the uprightness of faith. 14 For if it is those who live by the Law who will gain the inheritance, faith is worthless and the promise is without force; 15 for the Law produces nothing but God’s retribution, and it is only where there is no Law that it is possible to live without breaking the Law.
16 That is why the promise is to faith, so that it comes as a free gift and is secure for all the descendants, not only those who rely on the Law but all those others who rely on the faith of Abraham, the ancestor of us all 17 (as scripture says: I have made you the father of many nations). Abraham is our father in the eyes of God, in whom he put his faith, and who brings the dead to life and calls into existence what does not yet exist. 18 Though there seemed no hope, he hoped and believed that he was to become father of many nations in fulfilment of the promise: Just so will your descendants be. 19 Even the thought that his body was as good as dead – he was about a hundred years old – and that Sarah’s womb was dead too did not shake his faith.
20 Counting on the promise of God, he did not doubt or disbelieve, but drew strength from faith and gave glory to God,
21 fully convinced that whatever God promised he has the power to perform. 22 This is the faith that was reckoned to him as uprightness. 23 And the word ‘reckoned’ in scripture applies not only to him; 24 it is there for our sake too – our faith, too, will be ‘reckoned’ 25 because we believe in him who raised from the dead our Lord Jesus who was handed over to death for our sins and raised to life for our justification. (Romans 4:1-25)
Maran atha!
Angel
jcrichton;4711640:
Hello Ben,So you do not yet know the I AM?
QUOTE]
If it were not for us, you would not have a Bible to believe in it as the Word of God. If were not for us, you would never have a Messiah to claim him as your redeemer. If it were not for us, you would never know the meaning of Monotheism.
Ben:
This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.* - Lumen Gentium
If the above statement is held true, this means that the Church accepts that Truth found outside its walls is still the Truth. Hence, this “condition” must therefore, have always existed for catholic (universal) unity, even prior to the coming of Christ.
This means the Hebrew scriptures can be considered only a partial revelation of God’s word, and not necessarily the only source of Messianic prophecy.
The Rig Veda is considered by some historians to be older than the OT. Both Hindu and Christian scholars have examined Rig Veda salvation stories with interest.
Via Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church’s faithful are free to accept Truth found in any other source, because, we know that All Truth is found, contained, and revealed in the Life of Christ.
See this link for references of the excerpts below: oration.com/~mm9n/articles/hinduism/chapter_six.htm
A Personified, one supreme sacrifice is mentioned in the Rig Veda is known as Purusha Prajahpatih.
+ This Supreme Creator took a perfect human body (Nishkalanka Purush) and offered it up as a self-sacrifice (Brihad Aranyak Upanishad 1.2.8). This Purush was symbolized by a lamb which was then the animal most commonly sacrificed (Maddyandiniya Sathpathbrahmana III).
- This Purush is the only way to eternal life ("… Nanyah pantha vidyate - ayanaya": Yajur Ved 31:18). Note that this Purush is not a generic “self” but rather a person as described in Sanskrit dictionaries by Sanskrit scholars.
- Similarly, the Prajapati is not among the many mythical and even wicked characters found in Hindu traditions, but he is the Lord of all creation by definition.
+ This Purush was above sin, and only in knowing Him does one obtain immortality (Chandogya Upanishad 1.6:6,7).
+ Acknowledging the Purush-sacrifice imparts eternal life (Kathopanishad 1, 3.8, 11).
+ After giving Himself as the supreme sacrifice, this Purush resurrected (not reincarnated) himself (Brihad Aranyak Upanishad 3.9.28.4-5; Kathopanishad 3:15).
+ Clearly, the purpose of this sacrifice is to provide the only way to Heaven and the only way of escape from Hell (Rg Ved 9:113.7-11; Rg Ved 4.5.5; 7.104.3).
Hi!