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qui_est_ce
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I think you are misreading what irishpatrick wrote. One has to understand the cultural norms of the Jewish writers IN ADDITION to the types that point to the fullness of the OT, that is Christ.
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Steel_Pinwheel
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Timothy17
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Yes, it is.
This comparison is not a little deficient : The Jews do not have authorities on their Scripture - and that’s the point. Said authorities (the Levitical priests) disappeared with the Temple itself.
Now if the entire Magisterium of the Catholic Church (the Bishops and Cardinals) were all to suddenly disappear, then what would remain ? Our Tradition. What authorities would we have left ? The closest would be the theologians and Catholic professors/institutions. Are these truly “authorities” on Scripture for Catholics ? *Negative. *They lack the essential charism to be an “authority” in the Catholic sense. Now, is our Tradition - without the living magisterium - sufficient for the living Faith ? That’s a question that would likely consume “the remnant” of Catholics if the Magisterium were to disappear, and could never be authoritatively answered in the truest sense.
Rabbinical Judaism is, essentially, a debating society developed by the Pharisees following the destruction of the Temple, according to Christ’s Prophecy. That Rabbinical Judaism is the intellectual and cultural child of the Pharisees is admitted as such in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
Pax,
Tim
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qui_est_ce
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I’m not talking about the Jews AD. They rejected Jesus as the fulfillment of the Messianic promise.Do you think a Jews live by the same culture that is found in the Old Testament?
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Timothy17
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Whoah. Slow down, and back-up here. Please realize it’s not a little bit of an understatement to call the utter lack of Christ’s Teaching in the Talmud “not-so-good.” That’s not simply a “not-so-good” : It’s the absense of the Ultimate Good ; it’s the absense of the Truth. The Talmud is missing this :
[14] These nations, whose land thou shalt possess, hearken to soothsayers and diviners: but thou art otherwise instructed by the Lord thy God. [15] The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a PROPHET of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear:
[16] As thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the assembly was gathered together, and saidst: Let me not hear any more the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see any more this exceeding great fire, lest I die.
Book of Deuteronomy XVIII, xiv - xvi
Please note the context surrounding the promise of this Prophet : what immediately precedes and follows it.
Again, we need to take a step back here. The controversies between Pharisees and Sadducees, for example, is evident in the New Testament. The Temple Authorities, the High Priest especially, had diverging opinions and beliefs from mainstream Pharisaism. It acted much like the Magisterium does today in regulating and maintaining orthodoxy among the various parties, such as the Pharisees or the Zealots. The Talmud is principally the work of one party and its beliefs and traditions : the Pharisees.
“…Jesus himself quoted from “Jewish tradition” as well as from Jewish scripture, thus using the Talmud, or at least a kind of proto-Talmud in his teaching.”
Now there were authentic traditions in Israel I’m sure, but also very false ones, too : man-made traditions. The difference was not slight, and Christ pointed out some examples of those false traditions. (From my memory I cannot think of an example of Jesus citing a “Jewish tradition” in a positive form). For example, Christ often speaks thusly in Scripture,
You have heard that it was said… but I say unto you…
Pax,
Tim
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Vince1022
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And to repeat myself:
Jews are not atheists (ask anyone, Jew or not…in this case I would even offer wikipedia as evidence). But, to be fair, can you provide ANY rational basis for the claim that Jews tend to be atheists? You must have a very different definition of “Jew” than anyone else.
No Jew calls the Talmud the “New Testament” (again…unless you know otherwise?)
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Vince1022
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Good luck getting a reasonable response. That question has been asked, and avoided by the poster, many times on this thread.
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steveb1
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Hi Tim, I do agree with some of what you said. But (my opinion, can’t back it up w/scholarship at the moment) when Jesus* encourages *his disciples to emulate the Pharisees because they “sit on the Chair of Moses”; and when he also discourages them from emulating the Pharisees, it is only on the grounds that the Pharisees themselves are not living up the high standards of their own traditions. So at least in this case Jesus seems to have regarded Pharisaic tradition as admirable when put into correct practice.
Matthew 23 1-7, 23-26 illustrates this dichotomy well: on the one hand, Jesus believes in the Pharisees’ traditions and applauds them as necessary to Israel’s religious health; but he also berates them for not putting the traditions into practice and for emphasizing the letter of the traditions over their (compassionate, holy) spirit.
Also, Jesus’ so-called ‘antitheses" as appear in the Sermon on the Mount/Plain are less criticisms of extant Torah and tradition, but rather stronger and more stringent recommendations for Jewish practice. In a very real sense, Jesus’ “fulfillment” of Torah was in making it “stick” - by interpreting its heart and soul to his Jewish audiences as the path to “Righteousness” … and as a condition of entering his Kingdom of Heaven. In this, of course, Jesus exceeded most common Jewish teaching, whether of the Pharisees, Saducees, Qumranians and other Jewish socio-religious models. After all, he was not only Kingdom-proclaimer, but also Kingdom-bearer and exemplar.
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Bob_Crowley
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Is it written in Hebrew, or do you use an English translation? Just curious in case I want to have a sticky beak myself.I’ve got the Jewish Study Bible - I rather like it, but then I’m an ancient history buff, so I also like the way the Bible narrative is contextualized in it.
If you didn’t like Bretter’s source-critical approach you may not like the JSB either; it’s got quite a bit of those types of notes in it as well.
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qui_est_ce
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The Chair of Moses is now the Chair of Peter (Papacy)
He desires mercy, not sacrifice[BIBLEDRB]matthew 9:13[/BIBLEDRB]
All of what you write is consistent with Catholic teaching. An additional interpretation about the “fulfillment”, made by Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins, is that Jesus lived the OT perfectly, as the Israelites should have. Sacrifice was no longer necessary after Jesus’ ultimate Sacrifice. The the curtain separating the Holy of Holies was torn, and the Temple was destroyed, the Kingdom of Heaven reigns on Earth.Also, Jesus’ so-called ‘antitheses" as appear in the Sermon on the Mount/Plain are less criticisms of extant Torah and tradition, but rather stronger and more stringent recommendations for Jewish practice. In a very real sense, Jesus’ “fulfillment” of Torah was in making it “stick” - by interpreting its heart and soul to his Jewish audiences as the path to “Righteousness” … and as a condition of entering his Kingdom of Heaven. In this, of course, Jesus exceeded most common Jewish teaching, whether of the Pharisees, Saducees, Qumranians and other Jewish socio-religious models. After all, he was not only Kingdom-proclaimer, but also Kingdom-bearer and exemplar.
Another way Jesus was the fulfillment was the promise of God to Abraham in Genesis sealed in the blood covenant. God asked Abraham the split animal in two. They both walked between the halves.sacrifice. God made a covenant with Abraham that should he ever break his promise, he would become split as the animal. They were declaring by this act that if either party broke the prearranged contract, they should end up like the animal. Of course we sinned, not keeping our part of the covenant. Jesus took up what should have been our our part of the sacrifice.
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irishpatrick
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Rejecting Christ is rejecting the Jewish Messiah. That is the point. We can learn a great deal from the Jewish interpretation of the OT, yet they cannot see the truth of Jesus in their own Scriptures.
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Kaninchen
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Dialogue dies when it degenerates into “We’re right!”/“Oh, no you’re not!”
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Cat_Herder
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These comments are a far cry from the official position of the Catholic Church:
- The history of Israel did not end in 70 A.D. (cf. Guidelines, II). It continued, especially in a numerous Diaspora which allowed Israel to carry to the whole world a witness - often heroic - of its fidelity to the one God and to “exalt him in the presence of all the living” (Tobit 13:4), while preserving the memory of the land of their forefathers at the hearts of their hope (Passover Seder).
Notes on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church
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Cat_Herder
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I am hoping you meant to say that there are a number of atheists who self-identify as Jews. (I had one as an undergrad professor.) That does not make them Jewish.
Nancy Pelosi is grievously pro-abortion. She self-identifies as Catholic. That does not make her Catholic.
I might self-identify as the eggman and the walrus. That does not make me either. Koo koo ka choo.
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Dee_Katia
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It’s in English - I actually use it to help me with the more esoteric Hebrew bits, because its also got notes on strange Hebrew words that people don’t really know the meaning of.
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irishpatrick
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Dialogue falls into dishonesty and becomes utterly worthless if two parties do not state where they stand clearly.
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irishpatrick
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Nothing I wrote is contrary to what you posted here.
Nothing.
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Cat_Herder
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Good.Nothing I wrote is contrary to what you posted here.
I think my view of your comment was being colored by the subtext of the other poster. Apologies for any offense.
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Kaninchen
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If that’s all they do, then it’s a dialogue of the deaf.Dialogue falls into dishonesty and becomes utterly worthless if two parties do not state where they stand clearly.
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Steel_Pinwheel
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I did not say Jews are Atheists. But, it’s clear that you have not asked any jewish authority.
I did not say Jews call the Talmud the “New Testament”.
Obviously, you know you’re full of c**p else you would not be distorting what I said while trying to maintain what every authority know is wrong.
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