Jewish Book: How to Read the Bible

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Kaninchen said:
Yes, but if all each side is going to do is repeat its version of ‘truth’, then it’s going to be a dialogue of the deaf.
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The problem is most people do not simply state what they actually believe. Further, one can learn from others, that is quite true, yet a Christian can never learn about Christ from a Jew or a person from any other faith. Since Jews reject their own Messiah, Christians cannot really learn much of anything about Jesus from them. Regarding other topics, like Moses, the Law, etc., Jews will have many enlightening things to add, yet not when it comes to the most important questions. IMO.

For example: I can have a wonderful and enlightening talk with a well educated Jew about Abraham or Moses, but if the conversation turned to the Messiah and Jesus, than the Jewish person would have little to nothing to offer since Jews reject Christ. This will not always be the case. One day in the future the Jews will emrbace Jesus as their Messiah, yet until that time there is a huge gulf (regarding the Messiah) that cannot be bridged by talking pleasantly. 🙂

*
Romans 11: 25-27.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”​
*

Just as God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, He has also caused the Jews to experience at least a partial hardening towards the truth of Jesus until the full number of Gentiles have entered the Church and salvation. God is not done with His Chosen, the exact opposite actually. 🙂
 
Cat_Herder said:
These comments are a far cry from the official position of the Catholic Church:
  1. The history of Israel did not end in 70 A.D. (cf. Guidelines, II). It continued, especially in a numerous Diaspora which allowed Israel to carry to the whole world a witness - often heroic - of its fidelity to the one God and to “exalt him in the presence of all the living” (Tobit 13:4), while preserving the memory of the land of their forefathers at the hearts of their hope (Passover Seder).
Christians are invited to understand this religious attachment which finds its roots in Biblical tradition, without however making their own any particular religious interpretation of this relationship (cf. Declaration of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, November 20, 1975).

Notes on the correct way to present the Jews and Judaism in preaching and catechesis in the Roman Catholic Church
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I don’t see anything there that even suggests that Jews are an authority on scripture. The context of your Tobit quotes is “If he has scattered you [children of Israel] among them…Extol him before all the living… Though he punishes you for your iniquities… If you return to him with all your heart and all your soul, behaving honestly towards him, then he will return to you and hide his face from you no longer.”

This is not saying Jews are exalting God. It is instructing Jews to exalt God, because they are not. It is telling Jews to return to God. They do by accepting Christ. Actually, it’s doesn’t say this about “Jews” but about the children of Israel, of which most Jews are not.
 
irishpatrick said:
The problem is most people do not simply state what they actually believe. Further, one can learn from others, that is quite true, yet a Christian can never learn about Christ from a Jew or a person from any other faith. Since Jews reject their own Messiah, Christians cannot really learn much of anything about Jesus from them. Regarding other topics, like Moses, the Law, etc., Jews will have many enlightening things to add, yet not when it comes to the most important questions. IMO.
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I’ve never thought of this sort of thing as the purpose of dialogue - more an understanding of where each side stands and the reasons for it. Whether Christians can learn something from Judaism, I don’t know or particularly care - learn something about Judaism is another matter, after all we share the same planet. I don’t think we can learn anything at all from Christianity but knowing why Christians believe what they believe and the consequences of it is of some importance.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’ve never thought of this sort of thing as the purpose of dialogue - more an understanding of where each side stands and the reasons for it. Whether Christians can learn something from Judaism, I don’t know or particularly care - learn something about Judaism is another matter, after all we share the same planet. I don’t think we can learn anything at all from Christianity but knowing why Christians believe what they believe and the consequences of it is of some importance.
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Ahh, but if Christians are correct about Jesus, and if the Christian view of the OT prophecies are correct, and if there has been a hardening upon Jewish hearts, than you can indeed learn about the most important topic in all theology.

I doubt that there is even one serious Jew who knows their Scripture who would deny that Pharaoah experienced a hardening of his heart, yet they reject that the same thing has happened to them.

Here is the amazing point: Jesus will nor return and this era on earth will not come to close until the Jews have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Messiah). So, while the number-clock continues to run regarding the full inclusion of the Gentiles, so too does the time-clock run regarding the approaching day when Jews will accept Jesus as their Messiah. It is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when.

Yet, Gentiles must also beware, for there is also a time when Gentiles will no longer enter the Church and that is a sombering fact for non-Jews.
 
irishpatrick said:
Ahh, but if Christians are correct about Jesus, and if the Christian view of the OT prophecies are correct, and if there has been a hardening upon Jewish hearts, than you can indeed learn about the most important topic in all theology.
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And we’re immediately back to “Oh, yes it is!”/“Oh, no it isn’t!”

The implication being that there’s no point whatsoever in talking to one another.
 
Kaninchen said:
And we’re immediately back to “Oh, yes it is!”/“Oh, no it isn’t!”

The implication being that there’s no point whatsoever in talking to one another.
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I doubt that there is even one serious Jew who knows their Scripture who would deny that Pharaoah experienced a hardening of his heart, yet they reject that the same thing has happened to them.

Here is the amazing point: Jesus will nor return and this era on earth will not come to close until the Jews have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Messiah). So, while the number-clock continues to run regarding the full inclusion of the Gentiles, so too does the time-clock run regarding the approaching day when Jews will accept Jesus as their Messiah. It is not a matter of if, it is only a matter of when.

Yet, Gentiles must also beware, for there is also a time when Gentiles will no longer enter the Church and that is a sombering fact for non-Jews.

I highly recommend you read the following book (if you have not already):

“Salvation of from the Jews.” By: Roy H. Schoeman.

amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Role-Judaism-History/dp/089870975X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292718763&sr=8-1

Thanks for the chat. God bless. 🙂
 
Kaninchen said:
I recommend conversations not based on “Oh, yes it is!”/“Oh, no it isn’t!” 😉
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I was conversing and I recommended a book. I sincerely hope you get a copy and read it completely. It might very well change your life. Sometimes reading a book can be done dispassionately and far more objectively, than having a personal conversation.

Thanks again. 🙂
 
irishpatrick said:
I was conversing and I recommended a book. I sincerely hope you get a copy and read it completely. It might very change your life. Thanks again. 🙂
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Perhaps success in some conversations lies not in their outcomes but in continued politeness.
 
Kaninchen said:
Perhaps success in some conversations lies not in their outcomes but in continued politeness.
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I agree and I hope you experienced me as being a polite person. I feel you were as well.

Take care. 🙂
 
Cat_Herder said:
I am hoping you meant to say that there are a number of atheists who self-identify as Jews. (I had one as an undergrad professor.) That does not make them Jewish.
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There are many Jews who are self-identified Atheists. Jewish authorities overwhelmingly agree that Jews can be Atheists (but, not Christians).
Nancy Pelosi is grievously pro-abortion. She self-identifies as Catholic. That does not make her Catholic.
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What makes someone a Jew?

No one who self-identifies as a Jew is a real Jew. Christians are the real Jews. Abraham is our father, not theirs! Christianity is true Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is corrupt Judaism.
 
Steel_Pinwheel said:
No one who self-identifies as a Jew is a real Jew. Christians are the real Jews. Abraham is our father, not theirs! Christianity is true Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is corrupt Judaism.
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No one would ever accuse me of being an intellectual, but I generally tend to agree with these remarks.

I can’t quite put it into words the way I want to, but it seems that Rabbinic Judaism is like driving a bus by only looking in the rear view mirror. The rabbis have decided to permanently look backward to the Torah instead of looking for the fulfillment of it. That’s hardly an original thought, overall. I’m not trying to bash the Jews. It’s clear, you can read it in their modern writings, that they have closed their minds to a major development in Judaism such as that Christianity represents.

To oversimplify, I think they’re fixated on real-estate instead of on God. That would be a very hurtful statement to many Jews, striking at the heart of their modern ethos. Tell me I’m wrong, but the NT is obviously so NON-real-estate oriented, as opposed to the OT which seems to be. I’m not intending that as a polemic, but as a way-oversimplified distinction between the OT and the NT.

Jews have the understanding, if not an actual belief, that yes, all nations will be brought together by God – under Judaism as they know it. And, again, in an oversimplified way, that is exactly what Christianity brings to the table of Jewish monotheism – the divine roadmap for just that closure in a way they collectively least expected.To paraphrase, the LORD whom they sought DID suddenly come to the Temple, the Messenger of the NEW covenant. (Who else would have been the messenger of the new covenant? if I’m not being too sloppy with the prophecies)
 
Crumpy said:
No one would ever accuse me of being an intellectual, but I generally tend to agree with these remarks.

I can’t quite put it into words the way I want to, but it seems that Rabbinic Judaism is like driving a bus by only looking in the rear view mirror. The rabbis have decided to permanently look backward to the Torah instead of looking for the fulfillment of it. That’s hardly an original thought, overall. I’m not trying to bash the Jews. It’s clear, you can read it in their modern writings, that they have closed their minds to a major development in Judaism such as that Christianity represents.

To oversimplify, I think they’re fixated on real-estate instead of on God. That would be a very hurtful statement to many Jews, striking at the heart of their modern ethos. Tell me I’m wrong, but the NT is obviously so NON-real-estate oriented, as opposed to the OT which seems to be. I’m not intending that as a polemic, but as a way-oversimplified distinction between the OT and the NT.

Jews have the understanding, if not an actual belief, that yes, all nations will be brought together by God – under Judaism as they know it. And, again, in an oversimplified way, that is exactly what Christianity brings to the table of Jewish monotheism – the divine roadmap for just that closure in a way they collectively least expected.To paraphrase, the LORD whom they sought DID suddenly come to the Temple, the Messenger of the NEW covenant. (Who else would have been the messenger of the new covenant? if I’m not being too sloppy with the prophecies)
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Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you? 😉

And Muslims probably say similar sorts of things about Christians, Mormons about Catholics and so on and so on and so on. The problem is that it’s all conjecture, upon rationalisation, upon conjecture, upon rationalisation.

Oh, Yes it is!/Oh, No it isn’t!
 
Crumpy said:
That’s hardly an original thought, overall. I’m not trying to bash the Jews. It’s clear, you can read it in their modern writings, that they have closed their minds to a major development in Judaism such as that Christianity represents.
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You, like most Christians, still have no idea of what a Jew is, in spite of venerating them. They have opened their minds to a major development in Judaism. Have I not told you that they have their own New Testament, the Talmud?

Jews do not claim to a Jew is a descendant of Abraham or a theist. Why is it that Christians venerate this religion (Edited)?
 
Steel_Pinwheel said:
You, like most Christians, still have no idea of what a Jew is, in spite of venerating them. They have opened their minds to a major development in Judaism. Have I not told you that they have their own New Testament, the Talmud?

Jews do not claim to a Jew is a descendant of Abraham or a theist. Why is it that Christians venerate this religion of Satan and reject what Jews themselves say they are?
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…
 
irishpatrick said:
Ahh, but if Christians are correct about Jesus, and** if** the Christian view of the OT prophecies are correct, and** if** there has been a hardening upon Jewish hearts,-] than/-] then you can indeed learn about the most important topic in all theology.

I doubt that there is even one serious Jew who knows their Scripture who would deny that Pharaoah experienced a hardening of his heart, yet they reject that the same thing has happened to them.
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Kaninchen said:
And we’re immediately back to “Oh, yes it is!”/“Oh, no it isn’t!”

The implication being that there’s no point whatsoever in talking to one another.
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Well, IrishPatrick is using discussion/argumentation terms. IF.

Do you accept his premises? Why or why not? Do his premises lead to a logical conclusion?

(open for discussion). 🙂
 
irishpatrick said:
Regarding other topics, like Moses, the Law, etc., Jews will have many enlightening things to add, yet not when it comes to the most important questions. IMO.
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Jesus said the Jews didn’t listen to Moses or the Prophets. What enlightening statements can come from someone who lives in the dark?
For example: I can have a wonderful and enlightening talk with a well educated Jew about Abraham or Moses, but if the conversation turned to the Messiah and Jesus, than the Jewish person would have little to nothing to offer since Jews reject Christ.
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When you said “for example”, I was hoping for an example of a Jew having something enlightening to say. But, you gave no example.
Just as God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, He has also caused the Jews to experience at least a partial hardening towards the truth of Jesus until the full number of Gentiles have entered the Church and salvation. God is not done with His Chosen, the exact opposite actually. 🙂
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You are in error when you equate Jews with the children of Israel. And, even more so, Jews are not Israel. I have already explained why in this thread several times.
 
Steel_Pinwheel said:
Jesus said the Jews didn’t listen to Moses or the Prophets. What enlightening statements can come from someone who lives in the dark?
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He didn’t say “all Jews.” Obviously there were many who followed him. In fact in Acts, Peter and the Apostles were still going to Temple.
 
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