Jewish Book: How to Read the Bible

[qui_est_ce]

You, like most Christians, still have no idea of what a Jew is, in spite of venerating them. They have opened their minds to a major development in Judaism. Have I not told you that they have their own New Testament, the Talmud?

Jews do not claim to a Jew is a descendant of Abraham or a theist.

You are incorrect. Read the OT. He addresses Israel "I am the God of Abraham, I am the God who brought you out of Egypt. (Edited)

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

He didn’t say “all Jews.” Obviously there were many who followed him. In fact in Acts, Peter and the Apostles were still going to Temple.

The modern meaning of “Jew” is someone who doesn’t follow Jesus. The meaning in the context of this thread, as used by people other than myself, is someone who doesn’t follow Jesus.

Someone who doesn’t follow Jesus does not listen to Moses or the Apostles. If you wish to dispute that, say so. If not, what’s the point of your post?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Someone who doesn’t follow Jesus does not listen to Moses or the Apostles.

I wouldn’t say they don’t listen to Moses. They just don’t understand. Our separated brothers and sisters in Christ don’t understand the Apostles either. That doesn’t mean they are a religion of Satan.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

I wouldn’t say they don’t listen to Moses. They just don’t understand. Our separated brothers and sisters in Christ don’t understand the Apostles either. That doesn’t mean they are a religion of Satan.

Jesus said they don’t “listen” to Moses or the prophets. And, why don’t they understand? Jesus address that as well, and explained because they are of their father the Devil. (Edited)

 

[qui_est_ce]

Jesus said they don’t “listen” to Moses or the prophets. And, why don’t they understand? Jesus address that as well, and explained because they are of their father the Devil. (Edited)

Could you give me the Chapter and Verse please?

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Could you give me the Chapter and Verse please?

I’ll just give you some quotes of Jesus from the NAB:

*If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.

Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. You belong to your father the devil…

He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.*

You should read the New Testament. I’m not a Jew who hides my Talmud from infidels. Christians will even freely pass out Bibles to anyone who will take one.

You do not even believe about Jews what they tell you to your face about themselves. From the OP,* This is the Jewish version of an introduction to the Jewish Bible from the historical critical perspective.This approach is a “scientific” one which treats the Bible as an ordinary book, not divinely inspired.* (“Scientific” is an euphemism for Atheistic.)

Jews do not believe the Bible. The term “Jew” doesn’t even imply self-identified belief in God. So again, why would anyone go to them to find the “NT in the OT”?

 

[irishpatrick]

Well, IrishPatrick is using discussion/argumentation terms. IF.

Do you accept his premises? Why or why not? Do his premises lead to a logical conclusion?

(open for discussion).

It is no small insult to present a “corrected” post as if you have been appointed school master over CA. Think about that before you repeat such actions, please.

 

[irishpatrick]

Jesus said the Jews didn’t listen to Moses or the Prophets. What enlightening statements can come from someone who lives in the dark?

When you said “for example”, I was hoping for an example of a Jew having something enlightening to say. But, you gave no example.

You are in error when you equate Jews with the children of Israel. And, even more so, Jews are not Israel. I have already explained why in this thread several times.

Jews will tend to study the OT prophets at a much greater depth. Their views are most definitely worth studying regarding the OT prophets and also of issues not directly related to Christ. That does not mean we should take their views as some sort of absolute, yet their views are worthy of study–for the Jewish people do in fact continue to hold the Promises. God has not rejected the Jews, neither should we.

 

[irishpatrick]

I wouldn’t say they don’t listen to Moses. They just don’t understand. Our separated brothers and sisters in Christ don’t understand the Apostles either. That doesn’t mean they are a religion of Satan.

Exactly. And they also tend to study the prophets in some length and we can learn from them. Christians tend to forget that we are offered salvation ONLY because the Jews fell. Had they not fallen, had they fully embraced Jesus, we would remain outside and would also remain in our sins. We should have gratitude to the Jews and we should pray for them as we should pray for everyone we know.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, IrishPatrick is using discussion/argumentation terms. IF.

Do you accept his premises? Why or why not? Do his premises lead to a logical conclusion?

(open for discussion).

Well, obviously I don’t accept his premises.

The 'Oh, Yes It Is!/Oh, No it isn’t!" is where such arguments end up, it saves so much time and potential mutual annoyance to just go straight to the finale.

 

[irishpatrick]

Well, obviously I don’t accept his premises.

The 'Oh, Yes It Is!/Oh, No it isn’t!" is where such arguments end up, it saves so much time and potential mutual annoyance to just go straight to the finale.

Most (not all) conversations between Christians and Jews (regarding matters of faith) will not end-up being particularly productive. Most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah and they reject the NT as a Divinely given source. Our only true common ground is that we both are waiting for the Messiah: the Jews wait for Him in what they believe will be His first and definitive appearance, while Christians wait for the Messiah’s return in glory in which salvation history will come to an end. We both wait for the Messiah, just with radically different views regarding the Messiah’s appearance.

Christians should always hold Jewish people in great regard in matters of faith simply because God’s Revelation of Himself was first given to His Chosen People (the Jews). Christians should, in no small way, be grateful for the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, because it was that rejection that opened the door for the Gentiles to enter into the amazing offer of salvation through the one and only Savior–Jesus the Christ.

We can enjoy conversations about various matters, yet in the end there exists a non-bridgeable gap between us regarding the Messiah and until the day comes when Jews convert, that gap will continue. In Heaven everyone knows and will know that Jesus is the Messiah–the savior of all who are saved no matter where they came from.

 

[qui_est_ce]

It is no small insult to present a “corrected” post as if you have been appointed school master over CA. Think about that before you repeat such actions, please.

I wasn’t correcting your post, I was pointing out that you were making an argument for your POV. You weren’t saying “Yes it is, No it isn’t.”

 

[qui_est_ce]

Well, obviously I don’t accept his premises.

The 'Oh, Yes It Is!/Oh, No it isn’t!" is where such arguments end up, it saves so much time and potential mutual annoyance to just go straight to the finale.

Well, then, playing by your rules, there’s no room for discussion.

 

[irishpatrick]

I wasn’t correcting your post, I was pointing out that you were making an argument for your POV. You weren’t saying “Yes it is, No it isn’t.”

Ooops, here I am sticking my foot in my mouth.

MY MISTAKE.

I sincerely apologize.

 

[Kaninchen]

We can enjoy conversations about various matters, yet in the end there exists a non-bridgeable gap between us regarding the Messiah and until the day comes when Jews convert, that gap will continue. In Heaven everyone knows and will know that Jesus is the Messiah–the savior of all who are saved no matter where they came from.

And the chances us accepting all that are about as likely as Christians deciding that they’ve been seriously misled.

I think one of the central problems with conversations between Christians and Jews is something I say quite often here - Christians seem to be under a misapprehension that:

“Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus.”

The point is that they’re not - the two religions are paradigmatically different, they ‘work’ differently and what are significant ideas in one are quite different or even pretty meaningless in the other.

By the way, an example is ‘saved’, to which the Jewish response is ‘from what?’ (something we’ve been through on many threads in the past)

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, then, playing by your rules, there’s no room for discussion.

About some things, it does end up with “Oh, yes it is!”/“Oh, no it isn’t”

What is one to expect, some kind of damascene/damascene backwards conversion process of “Hey, I never thought of that, best I accept Jesus/give up on the whole Jesus business?”

Understanding one another is something different.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Jews will tend to study the OT prophets at a much greater depth. Their views are most definitely worth studying regarding the OT prophets and also of issues not directly related to Christ. That does not mean we should take their views as some sort of absolute, yet their views are worthy of study–for the Jewish people do in fact continue to hold the Promises. God has not rejected the Jews, neither should we.

I don’t know why in the world you think Jews study the OT to a greater depth than Christians. I do have my suspicion that you’re looking through colored glasses. “They’re God’s people. They’re better than we are.” Most of them don’t believe the OT. Why would they study so hard something they don’t believe (which is the openly boasted case in Jewish book that this thread is based on)? Christians have written hard-hitting academic books on the OT as well, but not from the perspective of proving that God didn’t inspire it and that it does not support Jesus.

(Edited)

 

[irishpatrick]

And the chances us accepting all that are about as likely as Christians deciding that they’ve been seriously misled.

I think one of the central problems with conversations between Christians and Jews is something I say quite often here - Christians seem to be under a misapprehension that:

“Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus.”

The point is that they’re not - the two religions are paradigmatically different, they ‘work’ differently and what are significant ideas in one are quite different or even pretty meaningless in the other.

By the way, an example is ‘saved’, to which the Jewish response is ‘from what?’ (something we’ve been through on many threads in the past)

This Christian (me) is unde no illuision that Christianity is Judaism minus Jesus. I do not agree that we are quite as different as you feel, but sometimes feelings are all that matters. From an educated Christian perspective Jews are our elders brothers and sisters who are waiting for the same Messiah that we Christians are (just in a very different way).

I believe that Jews understand the need for recieving atonement for sin every bit as clearly as do Christians.

 

[qui_est_ce]

And the chances us accepting all that are about as likely as Christians deciding that they’ve been seriously misled.

I think one of the central problems with conversations between Christians and Jews is something I say quite often here - Christians seem to be under a misapprehension that:

“Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus and Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus.”

The point is that they’re not - the two religions are paradigmatically different, they ‘work’ differently and what are significant ideas in one are quite different or even pretty meaningless in the other.

Interesting. I never thought of it like that. Could you give me an example of how, Catholicism ‘works’ differently, aside from the fact we believe Jesus is the Messiah talked about in Isaiah? Are Jews still not awaiting the Messiah?

By the way, an example is ‘saved’, to which the Jewish response is ‘from what?’ (something we’ve been through on many threads in the past)

I thought the concept of sin was integral to Judaism? (BTW Catholics don’t use the term “saved” either).

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’ll just give you some quotes of Jesus from the NAB:

*If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.

Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. You belong to your father the devil…

He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.*

You should read the New Testament. I’m not a Jew who hides my Talmud from infidels. Christians will even freely pass out Bibles to anyone who will take one.

You do not even believe about Jews what they tell you to your face about themselves. From the OP,* This is the Jewish version of an introduction to the Jewish Bible from the historical critical perspective.This approach is a “scientific” one which treats the Bible as an ordinary book, not divinely inspired.* (“Scientific” is an euphemism for Atheistic.)

Jews do not believe the Bible. The term “Jew” doesn’t even imply self-identified belief in God. So again, why would anyone go to them to find the “NT in the OT”?

Please give me Chapter and Verse for your statements.

Thank you.